Is it possible to use Elemental Fist on a Natural attack ?
Elemental Fist (Combat)
You empower your strike with elemental energy
Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When you use Elemental Strike pick one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. On a successful hit, the attack deals damage normally plus 1d6 points of damage of the chosen type. You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). You may attempt an elemental fist attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (see Special), and no more than once per round.
Was Thinking along the line of a Shapeshifter Ranger with Claws, IUS is one of the Prerequisites, but there is no wording in the Feat itself that says it needs to be with an Unarmed attack.
(as it is written, there is nothing to prevent you using it with a weapon either, although that seems a bit weird to me)
Sure, for a Ranger you'd get a total of 5 attempts each day (at lvl 20)
And as i haven't found that many Feats to augment the Natural weapon style a shapeshifting Ranger needs to take, it seemed to be an option, assuming it actually can be used on a Natural attack.
EDIT:
hmm, just found Feral Combat Training. and based on the wording from that Feat, it seems Elemental fist can NOT be used with natural attacks
Feral Combat Training (Combat)
You were taught a style of martial arts that relies on the natural weapons from your racial ability or class feature.
Prerequisite: Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus with selected natural weapon.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Actually, Feral Combat Training makes it possible. You said so yourself:
Feral Combat Training wrote:
Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
Special: If you are a monk, you can use the selected natural weapon with your flurry of blows class feature.
Elemental Fist has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite and therefore can be applied due to Feral Combat Training.
yeah, seems like it, I just did not know that IUS as a prerequisite limited the Feat to Unarmed strikes ONLY.
Not sure if this is specific to IUS only or if Feat prerequisites are always as a baseline for the new feat.
to put it another way,
If prerequisites are needed to use the new feat (as IUS is for elemental fist, as it can only be used on an unarmed attack) then wouldn't the same rule affect cleave ? You'd have to power attack just to cleave ?
Power Attack:
Power Attack (Combat)
You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
Cleave:
Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat. When you use this feat, you take a –2 penalty to your Armor Class until your next turn.
ofc this is assuming IUS as a prerequisite does not have any specific rules to it, if it does, the specific trumps generic so.
yeah, seems like it, I just did not know that IUS as a prerequisite limited the Feat to Unarmed strikes ONLY.
Not sure if this is specific to IUS only or if Feat prerequisites are always as a baseline for the new feat.
to put it another way,
If prerequisites are needed to use the new feat (as IUS is for elemental fist, as it can only be used on an unarmed attack) then wouldn't the same rule affect cleave ? You'd have to power attack just to cleave ?
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
you don't need to use power attack to cleave, you just need to have the feat before you can take cleave, whereas Pushing Assault has power attack as a prereq, and says "When you hit a creature your size or smaller with a two-handed weapon attack [b]modified by the power attack feat[b]. In the latter case, you have to use power attack to use the feat, in the former, you only need to have power attack to use the feat.
and that was my point, Pushing assault has power attack as a prereq, and you have to use power attack with it, it clearly says so in the pushing assault Feat text. Cleave only has it as a prereq.
Elemental Fist Does not have any wording that says it needs to be used with an unarmed attack, so natural attacks should work fine with it (and even normal weapons could / should work, though that seems weird to me)
But the fact that there is no wording that demands Elemental fist to be used with unarmed kinda makes Feral combat training pointless to some degree (the "as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike" might be of some use, you could even argue that a Monks unarmed strike damage is an effect, and would therefor be applied to a natural attack)
it wouldn't be the first time a Feat doesn't anything (looking at Prone shot)
This is nitpicking on the wording of the Feats and a bit of RAWlawyering i know, but i just want to know how and why it is the way it is in regards to elemental fist and natural attacks and the feral combat training (the more i learn the better i can draw correct conclusions to any new "problems" that might show up)
and that was my point, Pushing assault has power attack as a prereq, and you have to use power attack with it, it clearly says so in the pushing assault Feat text. Cleave only has it as a prereq.
Elemental Fist Does not have any wording that says it needs to be used with an unarmed attack, so natural attacks should work fine with it (and even normal weapons could / should work, though that seems weird to me)
But the fact that there is no wording that demands Elemental fist to be used with unarmed kinda makes Feral combat training pointless to some degree (the "as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike" might be of some use, you could even argue that a Monks unarmed strike damage is an effect, and would therefor be applied to a natural attack)
it wouldn't be the first time a Feat doesn't anything (looking at Prone shot)
This is nitpicking on the wording of the Feats and a bit of RAWlawyering i know, but i just want to know how and why it is the way it is in regards to elemental fist and natural attacks and the feral combat training (the more i learn the better i can draw correct conclusions to any new "problems" that might show up)
The main reason for taking feral combat training is so you can use your natural attacks during flurry of blows, but there are feats like adder strike and hamatulatsu that explicity say they only affect Unarmed Strikes as well. Whoever made Elemental Fist probably didn't word it correctly is all, I've always ruled that it only works with unarmed strikes anyways.
Actually EF is a umarmed attack feature. The pre-requirements on the Monk's side is the IUS and some decent ability scores. Although there is no actually description of that power can be transmuted to another medium, the pre-requirements that are stated to use it...does.
And the lesser form of EF, for non-monks does states, that it is through the fist only.
But being a creative player and GM, the use of it in a monk's hands, should be restricted by the means of a dedicated weapon that is Ki empowered.
Actually EF is a umarmed attack feature. The pre-requirements on the Monk's side is the IUS and some decent ability scores. Although there is no actually description of that power can be transmuted to another medium, the pre-requirements that are stated to use it...does.
And the lesser form of EF, for non-monks does states, that it is through the fist only.
But being a creative player and GM, the use of it in a monk's hands, should be restricted by the means of a dedicated weapon that is Ki empowered.
I counter your arguement with the feat, Perfect Strike, which doesn't work with unarmed strikes, yet has IUS as a prerequisite.
Actually EF is a umarmed attack feature. The pre-requirements on the Monk's side is the IUS and some decent ability scores. Although there is no actually description of that power can be transmuted to another medium, the pre-requirements that are stated to use it...does.
And the lesser form of EF, for non-monks does states, that it is through the fist only.
But being a creative player and GM, the use of it in a monk's hands, should be restricted by the means of a dedicated weapon that is Ki empowered.
I counter your arguement with the feat, Perfect Strike, which doesn't work with unarmed strikes, yet has IUS as a prerequisite.
Tnat has nothing do with the use of EF, which is the main topic. But I will not dismiss your statement either. I know the original writing is very coy, but any seasoned player will understand what was truly intented.
Please keep in mind, the ability is called Elemental Fist, not Elemental Whatever. :)
