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I am looking to start up a group for a few friends of mine. We are using a 20 point buy, 1 normal you pick trait and 1 campaign trait assigned as per your back story by me the GM. A person asked if 3rd party content was allowed and I said with approval.
So they picked the class Swashbuckler from Adamant Entertainment.
I looked over the class and decided it was way too high power compaired to other classes. Bullet points being:
d10 Hit die
Full BaB
Proficient with simple and martial weapons and light armor.
Two Good saves.
Level 1 Feats: Evade(class skill)=dodge when determining prereqs, weapon finesse, and 1st level feat
4+int Skill points
Uncanny and Improved later on
Evasion and Improved later on
Expanding crit range that stacks with other crit range expanding skills.
Sneak attack starting level 2 and increasing every 3rd level
Bonus feats every 3 levels.
Deflect Arrows at 13 w/o having to have a hand free
and Weapon Training with a select group of weapons
I said it was not allowed unless it underwent some revision. I revised it like this.
d8 hit die
Full BAB
proficient with simple and Pirate weapons and light armor.
two good saves
Evade no longer qualifies as dodge for prereqs,
Put off improved versions of Uncanny dodge and Evasion for like 12 levels instead of having both by level 10
reduced skill point to 2+int
bonus feats at second level and every 5 levels past that
Weapon training was restricted to Pirate weapons only
and Expanded crit range doesnt stack with other things that expand crit range.
Now they are crying foul that I've completely wrecked their dream of playing this class and how I'm being unfair to them. I believe I've taken the class from being super duper OP and toned it down to just being really powerful and im considering taking it down to just one good save. I keep telling him they basically smashed a rogue and a Fighter together and forgot to add balance.
thoughts?
My proposed changes:
I would drop the weapon training, and the free feats, not the bonus ones though.
As for evade the class should not have heavy armor proficiency, and if the character is encumber and/or wears medium or heavy armor evade is ceases to function.
The two good saves are ok IMHO.
Evade also should not qualify as a dodge for for prereqs. '
edit:I would give the class perception as a class skill.
I'm with you for a number of reasons.
Firstly, I see 'power creep' wherever I look, even within Paizo stuff. The main reason for making a new character class is because it's better at something than the standard classes. 3P writers often (not always, I have a friend who writes for 4WF and the problem with his character class is usually they're not powerful enough) don't commensurately reduce their other abilities. I haven't sat down and analysed the swashbuckler, but I think it's likely that it is, as you feel, more powerful. Certainly, you know your game and the other characters and will have a good sense as to whether it's unbalancingly good compared with other players.
Secondly, as GM (at your own table) you're absolutely entitled to make rulings, even about core classes. I give sorcerers four skill points for example. And (according to your post) you made it very clear that 3P material was subject to approval.
Thirdly, there is little more destructive to a player group, even of very close friends, in having one character who is clearly more powerful than the others. "Ho hum, we'll just let Chiron kill all the monsters again and search for treasure when he's done." Much better to err on the side of caution - you can always 'restore' some of the abilities later if he does prove to be too weak.
Fourthly, why is this person's dream to play a swashbuckler (and why does cutting back on the power 'wreck' it). Is it because they want to be a swashbuckler, or is it just that they've looked at it and licked their lips and thought "hey, that's better than a fighter rogue"? I don't want to cast aspersions on the integrity of a person I've never met, but pulling back the power level doesn't stop a swashbuckler being a swashbuckler, it just reduces their power.
My thought would be to invite your player to tone it down himself, comparing it at levels 1, 5 and 11 against a standard PC class (say L 1F, 3F/2R, 7F/4R) for equivalent power. Or encourage him to play a fighter rogue.
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The class has no magic, so it's not that powerful. It has only one good save that matters: Fortitude. It has no knowledge class skills.
I would allow it.
I can't tell if you are being serious or not. I will assume you are serious. It doesn't have magic because its a melee class and all saves are important. You can die from a dominate person, lightning bolt, or disease if the conditions are right.
I can't tell if you are being serious or not. I will assume you are serious. It doesn't have magic because its a melee class and all saves are important. You can die from a dominate person, lightning bolt, or disease if the conditions are right.The class has no magic, so it's not that powerful. It has only one good save that matters: Fortitude. It has no knowledge class skills.
I would allow it.
Also, magic doesn't mean crap if you crit on a 13 - 20. If you take this class, get a rapier, improved critical, and you get both of his find the mark abilities, that's getting crits 35% of the time. Combine that with two good saves, full bab, d10 HD, good skills, and all of his bonus feats you get an insanely powerful class.
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HD and BAB are linked in Pathfinder. That means if you drop a class to a d8 hit dice it has 2/3rds BaB (like a rogue).
Honestly, I'd just tell the player to roll a swashbuckler rogue, or a cad fighter and avoid the headache all together.
Unless I decide to give a person a d8 and full BAB. Then they get that.
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Unless I decide to give a person a d8 and full BAB. Then they get that.HD and BAB are linked in Pathfinder. That means if you drop a class to a d8 hit dice it has 2/3rds BaB (like a rogue).
Honestly, I'd just tell the player to roll a swashbuckler rogue, or a cad fighter and avoid the headache all together.
Can't see where anyone would think you were being unreasonable. A GM can do whatever he wants. Dude was just pointing out how all classes in Pathfinder work, of course you can do what you want....you could just remake all classes to be whatever you want.
Why get snarky over someone pointing out a simple rule of thumb for classes?Also I wouldn't have even attempted paring down that class....it is Over Powered in too many ways. I would have just not allowed it instead of trying to get the player to agree with 10 nerfs of the class.
you stated "with approval"
If they don't agree with your revision, bad luck for them.
Besides : The class is overpowered (especially the expanding Crit feature), and basically, with some creative juices going you can easily explain almost any class into almost any concept if you want to and _play_ it that way.
Sticking to "this one class, or else" = telltale sign of it being overpowered.
Hmm, a class with full-BAB, D10 (or even the D8), two good saves, taking choice picks (Dodge, Evasion.. and both with upgrades ) from other classes, plus getting Sneak Attack (one level late, oh my), extra Bonus Feats, 4+ skill points... full proficiencies for weaponry.
What exactly are the disadvantages again ? Far superior to Rogue and Fighter. Esepcially so for a campaign mandating light armour and close-up combat for everyone...
And honestly, if your casters can outdamage a decent fighter types in mid-and high range combat, especially after having been hit with a Dispel Magic, your fighter-players sort of "suck". JMHO
High melee crit threat is not the be-all end-all. Wraithstrike's suggestions are quite reasonable.
I'd suggest stamping "not approved" on the class and moving on.
Besides, if he goes ranger/horizon walker, it's gonna get nasty.
Setting aside the merits of the class, this kind of debate/argument with one of the players is why I decided no third party stuff period. A list of core material is defined at the beginning, and don't ask for anything else. It's trickier with official stuff, but just not worth it IMO for 3rd party. Some 3rd party stuff is going to be junk, why get into the argument? (Obviously just my opinion; I'm sure others will explain how incredibly wonderful it can be.)
That said, I don't think you're being unreasonable. (Surprise.) If the player thinks your tweaks are nerfing his dreams, tell him to look at the rogue and fighter archetypes that are more up his alley (eg, pirate, bucanner, swashbuckler, etc). It's official, it's preapproved, and has the gestalt he's looking for.
If you took a rogue and a fighter and cut them in half you would get this class. I would probably just change it to a 3/4 BAB and d8 hit points and call it a day. As the party progresses the rogue will have more sneak attack damage and more skills and the fighter will have more survivability. This just seems to be somewhere in the middle.
^ This. 3/4 BAB and d8 HP seems to fit the flavour of the class better, anyway. 2/3 Sneak Attack Progression + Bonus feats off a limited list every 3 levels.. Replace rogue talent -> Bonus feat, is what it looks like the idea was.
Maybe take away Weapon Training. I would leave Finesse in, though. Feat taxes are painful for dex-based characters (no matter how many bonus feats you get).
If you tell him "no" anyways, tell him to multiclass rogue/fighter. Thats all this class is. If you look closely you'll see it goes Rogue/Rogue/Fighter
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I only let my players use Classes from Paizo ... 3rd party classes are not to the same scale, and their rules don't mesh with the standard rules (and you can get some weird RAW situations).
There's a swashbuckler archetype for rogue in APG. If he wants to be more martial than that, get him to cross-class.