Stacking bonus skill ranks from magical items

[Ravingdork]

Multiple enhancement bonuses to the same ability score don't stack. We all know this. What about bonus skill ranks though?

Say I have two scarlet and blue sphere ioun stones, each with a different linked skill, do I get both skills?

[Franko a]

I thought that different types of bonuses would stack.
A competence bonus to spellcraft and a holy bonus to spellcraft (wizard type god) would stack.

[Ravingdork]

Franko a wrote:

I thought that different types of bonuses would stack.

A competence bonus to spellcraft and a holy bonus to spellcraft (wizard type god) would stack.

Sorry. Meant to say enhancement bonuses, not enchantment bonuses.

[Wyrmholez]

They are affecting different stats right? I'd think that would be kin to arguing that since I have a Belt of +4 strength I can't benefit from a headband of +4 charisma.

[Ravingdork]

Wyrmholez wrote:

They are affecting different stats right? I'd think that would be kin to arguing that since I have a Belt of +4 strength I can't benefit from a headband of +4 charisma.

That's sort of the way I see it too.

[CaptainJandor]

Yeah, they would both apply. Stacking only applies to a single thing (spellcraft, attack rolls, Charisma, what have you). If you had two ioun stones that both provided a +2 enhancement bonus to Spellcraft (for example), they wouldn't stack. otherwise it's fine.

[Khrysaor]

What he means is having 2 items that both give +2 intelligence. They could both be linked to a different skill and give +1 rank per level. This isn't an enhancement bonus to a skill. Its the interaction of gaining a +2 to intelligence and the devs have already said that these items get linked to a specific skill so players cant just remove the item and put it back on to gain a new skill. I don't think there's specific rules on wondrous items in this regard and the closest thing would be wearing bracers of armor and armor. In this case you pick the armor with the best AC bonus and you get none of the secondary bonuses from the piece with the lower AC.

Ie. wearing full plate and bracers of armor AC 1 with fortification. Since the full plate has the higher AC, the bracers don't apply and you don't get the fortification bonus.

In his example, both items provide the same enhancement bonus to a stat, but do you get the skill rank that each item would provide while using both.

I can see the argument both ways and there is nothing definitive that I know of. My best argument would be no you don't. Only one of the items is providing the bonus to intelligence, and that is where you're gaining the skill from.

[Ravingdork]

Khrysaor wrote:

In this case you pick the armor with the best AC bonus and you get none of the secondary bonuses from the piece with the lower AC.

I'm not sure there is a general rule anywhere saying that you can't have multiple armor abilities from different armors. I know there is a specific rule in regards to bracers of armor interacting with magical armor and vice versa, but not a blanket rule for anything else.

EDIT: I'm wrong. The magical item slot rules in the magic chapter make it quite clear there is only one armor slot.

Khrysaor wrote:

What he means is having 2 items that both give +2 intelligence. They could both be linked to a different skill and give +1 rank per level. This isn't an enhancement bonus to a skill. Its the interaction of gaining a +2 to intelligence and the devs have already said that these items get linked to a specific skill so players cant just remove the item and put it back on to gain a new skill.

The way I see it currently: The only requirement of getting the skill ranks is getting the +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. If I have two of the ioun stones, I am getting the +2 enhancement bonus to intelligence from both. Whether or not said bonuses stack is entirely inconsequential. The fact remains that I am still getting both bonuses simultaneously. If you dispel one ioun stone, I still have the bonus from the other and vice versa.

[Ughbash]

Ravingdork,

You are so far behind the times.......

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2k1db?4-or-more-skills-from-an-Item#1

When that was asked a little over 3 years ago the two people who commetned on it said no. I am still of the opinion it should be legal.

[cartmanbeck]

Ravingdork wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

In this case you pick the armor with the best AC bonus and you get none of the secondary bonuses from the piece with the lower AC.

I'm not sure there is a general rule anywhere saying that you can't have multiple armor abilities from different armors. I know there is a specific rule in regards to bracers of armor interacting with magical armor and vice versa, but not a blanket rule for anything else.

EDIT: I'm wrong. The magical item slot rules in the magic chapter make it quite clear there is only one armor slot.

Khrysaor wrote:

What he means is having 2 items that both give +2 intelligence. They could both be linked to a different skill and give +1 rank per level. This isn't an enhancement bonus to a skill. Its the interaction of gaining a +2 to intelligence and the devs have already said that these items get linked to a specific skill so players cant just remove the item and put it back on to gain a new skill.

The way I see it currently: The only requirement of getting the skill ranks is getting the +2 enhancement bonus to Intelligence. If I have two of the ioun stones, I am getting the +2 enhancement bonus to intelligence from both. Whether or not said bonuses stack is entirely inconsequential. The fact remains that I am still getting both bonuses simultaneously. If you dispel one ioun stone, I still have the bonus from the other and vice versa.

While that MAY work mechanically according to the rules (though I'd argue that it doesn't), it is definitely against the intent, because the idea of gaining the new skill ranks is that your intelligence bonus is going up, so you literally have more "room" in your brain for skill ranks, and the headband also provides you with a skill to fill that "room" up with. If you're only gaining a +2 bonus to Int, but wearing two items that give +2 to Int, then only one of them should give you bonus skill ranks, because you don't have the Intelligence to hold the information from both. Alternatively, I suppose you could have 1/2 your level in ranks in each one, and I would probably allow THAT in one of my games.

[Khrysaor]

I agree with you that it could be up for interpretation, as I said earlier, but the way I see it is;

PRD wrote:

Stacking

Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

Bold is mine.

The skill gain is an inherent bonus for having a +2 in intelligence. If the stat bonus doesn't apply, then the skill doesn't either.

[Ravingdork]

It isn't any kind of bonus, much less an inherent bonus Khrysaor, it just is.

[cartmanbeck]

Ravingdork wrote:

It isn't any kind of bonus, much less an inherent bonus Khrysaor, it just is.

Except that it's an enhancement bonus to your Intelligence that gives you the ABILTIY to have those skill ranks. If you aren't actually benefiting from both bonuses to Intelligence, you also shouldn't benefit from both sets of skill ranks.

Now, how do you determine which set of skill ranks you have at any given time? I'd say it's the first one you put on that went into effect. So, if you have, let's say, a headband of vast int +2 with Stealth ranks and a bracelet of int +2 with Diplomacy ranks, you could take one of them off temporarily to make the other one the active ranks. That way if you know you're gonna be trying to talk prices down at a shop, you take off the headband for a second, making the Diplomacy ranks the active ones.

That's really the only way this would work for you, and it's already pretty cheesy.

[Khrysaor]

Inherent: Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Having a high intelligence, inherently gives you more skill points.

It might not carry the descriptor like the magic tomes do, but they are inherent bonuses.

[Ravingdork]

cartmanbeck wrote:

Except that it's an enhancement bonus to your Intelligence that gives you the ABILTIY to have those skill ranks. If you aren't actually benefiting from both bonuses to Intelligence, you also shouldn't benefit from both sets of skill ranks.

That is merely your opinion/interpretation and is no more supported by the rules than my own.

[cartmanbeck]

Ravingdork wrote:

cartmanbeck wrote:

Except that it's an enhancement bonus to your Intelligence that gives you the ABILTIY to have those skill ranks. If you aren't actually benefiting from both bonuses to Intelligence, you also shouldn't benefit from both sets of skill ranks.

That is merely your opinion/interpretation and is no more supported by the rules than my own.

RD, you're excellent with the rules, and I respect you for that, but you have to realize you're being a little ridiculous with this one. You know as well as anyone that it is definitely NOT intended that you would be able to have more skill ranks than you should by having two items that don't stack with bonuses to your Int. It's blatantly defying the intent of the rules. RAW can only take you so far, and if a GM let you do this in their game then they're nuts!

[Khrysaor]

Technically, there is no skill points on the item. The skill points are coming from the bonus you receive from the +2 intelligence. The reason skills got linked to items was because people thought you could pick any skill with an intelligence headband, which meant taking it off and putting it back on would allow you to pick a new skill. There was an official response to this, where the developers did not intend it to be like that so they said it should be bound to a specific skill.

So if an item gives you a +2 intelligence bonus, you receive one skill rank per level. If you do not receive the +2 intelligence bonus, you do not receive the skill rank per level because your intelligence did not go up to warrant the skill gain.

In the stacking rules it says only the highest bonus applies. This means that any bonus that isn't the highest, does not apply. If you do not get the bonus to intelligence, you do not get the bonus skill rank per level.

Edit: an item that grants +5 competence bonus is 2500gp. +20 is 40,000gp according to the pricing methods provided. The Ioun stone is 8000gp based on the pricing for a +2 stat item that is slotless, as though you made the headband of vast intellect slotless. I would also say 8000gp to get 1-20 ranks in a skill is too cheap. I value ranks higher than a bonus because ranks in skills are used as prerequisites for many other things.

[Ravingdork]

cartmanbeck wrote:

RD, you're excellent with the rules, and I respect you for that, but you have to realize you're being a little ridiculous with this one. You know as well as anyone that it is definitely NOT intended that you would be able to have more skill ranks than you should by having two items that don't stack with bonuses to your Int. It's blatantly defying the intent of the rules. RAW can only take you so far, and if a GM let you do this in their game then they're nuts!

Yeah. You're probably right...

...I am excellent with the rules. XD

Khrysaor wrote:

In the stacking rules it says only the highest bonus applies. This means that any bonus that isn't the highest, does not apply. If you do not get the bonus to intelligence, you do not get the bonus skill rank per level.

That's the best argument I've heard yet, but could you please quote/link the rule that backs up your claim?

[Khrysaor]

Stacking bonuses:

quote=PRD]Stacking

Stacking refers to the act of adding together bonuses or penalties that apply to one particular check or statistic. Generally speaking, most bonuses of the same type do not stack. Instead, only the highest bonus applies. Most penalties do stack, meaning that their values are added together. Penalties and bonuses generally stack with one another, meaning that the penalties might negate or exceed part or all of the bonuses, and vice versa.

Intelligence ability:

PRD wrote:

You apply your character's Intelligence modifier to:

The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.

The number of skill points gained each level, though your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.

Appraise, Craft, Knowledge, Linguistics, and Spellcraft checks.

James Jacobs on headbands of vast intelligence:

James Jacobs wrote:

16 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Added to the FAQ. 1 person marked this as a favorite. +

It's easy to see why in 3.5 the Intelligence boosting items didn't mess with your skill points, ain't it? :-)

The headband of vast intelligence grants you an Intelligence bonus. We wanted it to also grant skill points, since that's what increased intelligence scores do. What we DIDN'T want was a situation where you get an item that grants an INT bonus and put it on your head and get to pick where those extra skill ranks go there and then... because then what's keeping you from putting those ranks in to, say, Appraise, but then when you get to a locked door you can just take the item off and then put it back on your head and say, "Now those skill ranks are adding to my Disable Device!" Makes the item WAY too versatile.

So the solution was to "hard code" the skill ranks into each item. That way, when you find an INT boosting head band, you not only know what the skill ranks it grants are, but when you take it off and put it back on or pass it around to your friends, it stays the same. It removes the whole "What do I want to be good at today?" problem. And that DOES mean that sometimes you'll find an INT boosting item that overlaps with skill ranks you already have, but that's fine with me since you're still enjoying all the other benefits of the increased INT score just like you did in 3.5 (which, remember, doesn't grant ANY skill ranks for INT boosters).

You certainly don't get the bonus ranks hard coded into the item AND another batch of skill ranks to spend as you wish.

I'll make sure Jason knows that this'll be something we should add to the FAQ. It's not really errata, since it's not really a correction. It's just something that needs more explanation.

EDIT: I'm not sure if excluding bonus languages from the things the headband grants was an oversight or intentional. I think it might have been intentional, but I'm not sure.

FAQ on headbands of vast intelligence:

FAQ wrote:

Headband of Vast Intelligence: If I wear this item (page 517), do I get retroactive skill ranks for my Int increase in addition to the skill ranks associated with the item?

No. The skill associated with the magic item represents the "retroactive" skill ranks you'd get from the item increasing your Intelligence. You don't get the item's built-in skill ranks and another set to assign however you want.

—Sean K Reynolds, 08/30/11 Back to Top

[Ravingdork]

Thank you. I concede the point.

EDIT: lol. I was the one that asked some of those FAQ questions. :P

[Khrysaor]

Thought I saw your name a few posts before SKR posted the FAQ link. XD

You're welcome, Sir.