So I don't know if this has already been seen, but I just realized that the feat Skill Focus is the same as a class skill in that each gives you a +3 in said class, the only difference is needing to use a feat or a skill point to "activate" the feature. So that means that skill monkeys start out with a boat load of feats that other classes do not.

And they can take the same feat again to get an extra +3 over other classes.

And that the bonus for class skill doesn't increase when you put 10 ranks into the skill.

And that the bonus for class skill doesn't increase when you put 10 ranks into the skill.

I always forget about that increase

There are also skill enhancing feats that add +2 to two separate skills (which becomes +4 to each if you have 10 or more ranks).

So maybe a class skill is worth closer to 3/8 of a feat?

Or less, if it's a class skill that you'd never even consider taking Skill Focus for?

I don't think you can really compare it to a feat.

Even with low skillpoint classes after about level 3 or so I usually have at least 1 rank in most my class-skills, those I care about anyway.

I don't think you can really compare it to a feat.

Even with low skillpoint classes after about level 3 or so I usually have at least 1 rank in most my class-skills, those I care about anyway.

I agree. While skill bonusses can be great, it doesn't compare to a feat, since you don't choose them, and there might be several that you don't need.

A similar comparison is translating weapon training into feats. Getting +1 attack and damage is 1½ feat (W.Focus, ½ W.Spec). Taking a weapon group such as Heavy Blades, you get it for 24 weapons, so if you should get the ability through feats, you'd need 36 feats for Weapon Training 1.

While class features may grant abilities similar to or equivalent of feats, we can't meaningfully translate the utility to feat-basis.

It's also misleading because Skill Focus (Most Things) isn't a very good feat at all. Skill Focus is only really very useful as a prerequisite (in which case having the thing as a class skill doesn't matter) or in a few specialized cases where every last bonus you can get out of something matters. The game itself recognizes that Skill Focus isn't a good feat though the existance of the Additional Traits feat, which can theoretically get you two additional class skills plus an additional +1 to those skills or another side benefit. Granted, it can only be taken once and the traits have to actually exist, make sense with your character (unless you allow refluffing) and not conflict with traits you already have, but it's not like people are always scrambling to take Additional Traits.

Don't get me wrong, having a bunch of class skills is totally awesome, and probably an overlooked benefit in many cases, but a class skill is worth only a fraction of a decent feat (depending on the class and what the class skill is.)

If I could trade all of my class skills for feats, I would. I would eventually make up the skill difference with skill ranks put in, but I would be able to start off with so many feats.

Give me a ranger where I trade Craft, Heal, Intimidate, Ride and Swim for Iron Will, Quick-Draw, Point-Blank Shot, Toughness, and Improved Initiative, and I will show you a human ranger with 7 feats at level one.

by no means did I mean that I find skill focus to be a great feat, simply pointing out that(at least at early levels) it is similar to having a class skill

This thread isn't worth the electrons it's printed on.

The Cosmopolitan Feat actually grants two Class skills (as well as two languages). And Traits often grant one as well as a slight bonus of some sort (and are considered worth half a Feat).

So, I think it's pretty clear that making something a Class skill is worth a bit less than half a Feat.

Skill Focus is worth more because it stacks with the Class Skill bonus, and because it doubles at 10th level. The combination really does make it worth the same as two Class Skills (IMO), at least for people who really focus on doing one thing well.