The Basic Summoner


Advice


So, threads about the generic (i.e. no archtypes applied) summoner basically fall into one of two camps:

1) its not broken if you follow all 2 million rules exceptions.

2) its broken and needs the nerf bat. Preferably 3-4 swings.

I'm not all that terribly fond of making broken characters and tend to avoid options that are just too good or too useful. On the other hand, I absolutely love the flavor behind the the class.

So for all you "#2's" out there, what are the issues as you perceive them?
If you wanted to build a summoner/Big E what steps would you take in your own creation process to make him useful and balanced without stepping on the toes of your party mates?

Evolutions to skip? Some combinations just really too good?

Note: I'm not trying to self-nerf it into uselessness,. just don't want to be a 1 man wonder of the team or anything either.

As an additional note: I usually fall into the 1st group, but I'm also aware of some of the other issues and want to make sure I dont' fall into any obvious "shouldn't have done that" issues with the class.

Thanks, in advance.

-S


Don't give your eidolon magic items. He won't be able to replace your party members if he can't deal lots of damage due to the big bad's DR, but he can still clean up the mooks without it. Pick up haste and your party will always love you.


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As Malfus said the Eidolon is very effective at taking down mooks. He has extreme difficulties against DR. From my experience playing with the summoner, he seems a lot scarrier on paper than he actually is in game.

If the DM is worried about your summoned creatures, the level 1 spell Protection from good/evil or Chaos/law will prevent anything you summon from being effective.

Ability damage is extremely detrimental especially at low levels, because the eidolon can't heal it. So from level 1-3 you could end up as I did, having an eidolon with a 6 strength due to ability damage that the DM decided to throw.

The summoner himself is a sub par caster and gives up a lot to not be a full caster.

Yes you do get two turns per round, but when the turns amount to 1. I fire my light crossbow and miss. 2. My eidolon with strength damage does 1d6-3 per claw that hits. The class has a lot to be desired.

Top it off with extra nerfs like, "When you summon your eidolon you must spend a round or two re-equipping it, because the gear stays when the eidolon disappears."
(When my eidolon died after being shot out of the sky I spent an hour arguing that I could locate his magic items using Detect magic. The DM placed them in a tree, and I had to use acid splash to destroy the tree to get all of the items back, yes....I used acid splash to chop down a tree. Gotta love that acid beats hardness.)
Or
The Beastiary version of pounce allows rake attacks whereas the Eidolon version of pounce does not allow rake attacks.
And my favorite
You must use 3 handle animal checks to control your 3 summoned creatures during combat, and you must push them because they don't know any tricks.
(This one left me speechless, because my summoned creatures couldn't tell who was hostile and who wasn't since I wasn't being directly attacked.)

Put simply the rules for the Summoner are not written well enough to cover all of the things that come up in game play. DMs seem to be so afraid of the class that if an opportunity comes along to nerf the Summoner they won't hesitate to do so. There is no need for you to self nerf the class that you are playing.

I now play a Zen Archer, where the rules are firmly set in place and I get to laugh as I see our groups ranger fail handle animal checks to control his Animal Companion.


My DM actually hasn't said anything about it.

I am aware though that some folks think they are OP and am looking at ways that I, myself, can make sure he doesn't overshadow folks.

My goal with it would be to be effective, fun, without stealing the show.
I'm not against houserules but I'm rather hoping I can do it just by limiting some evolutions that are problematic rather than going to the DM with it.

Such as:
No or limited magical items (as was suggested)
Not using Multi-arm and such to stack tons of attacks
Going the 'one big super bite' routine. (using extra points
for movement versatility and such)

Or whatnot.

-S


If it is your desire to not steal the show, play as a bard or a support cleric. There is no reason to play as a character who is built around the idea of doing something fantastic like control and evolve an Eidolon if you look at it as if to say, "Nope that would be too strong for the likes of me to take."

I have never heard of a fighter throwing away a two handed sword because it is too powerful and would give him strength bonuses to damage that would occasionally allow him to steal the show.

The monsters that your DM throws at you won't go, "Casting spell like abilities is too powerful for me to use, and my monster brothers won't appreciate it if I kill the invaders all by myself. I'll just use claws and bites instead of my high damaging attacks."

The better you design your character the better your party will do. If you have a character that can kill most things in one round, good for you. That just means that combat has suddenly become fun for you, you don't have to worry about dieing all the time and you can now enjoy role playing.

I could easily build a level 7 eidolon that can cast spells like a level 2 wizard, has sub par armor, and has no natural attacks, but I don't do it. It is the worst waste of a character that you could have. D&D much like Pathfinder has combat at its core, if you deny yourself a decent combat character you destroy the fun of the game for yourself and create a party imbalance being a drain on party resources instead of pulling your own weight. Building a good character doesn't make you a power gamer or a munchkin, it just means that you put enough thought into it to make the game enjoyable.

There is a reason that you don't see multi-class characters built in this way:

LVL1 Wizard
LVL2 Fighter
LVL3 Rogue
LVL4 Paladin
LVL5 Sorcerer
LVL6 Cleric
LVL7 Gunslinger
LVL8 Bard
LVL9 Monk
LVL10 Ranger

The character shown above has hit points on his side, though not as many hit points as a fighter, and less versatility than any of the classes he has jumped into. Aside from hit points he really has nothing going on except for the ability to wear lots of armor and use lots of weapons, unless he wants to cast his first level spells. In other words the character is a useless drain on party resources, and he is LEVEL 10!!!!

Just because there is a better and worse way to build something doesn't mean that you should shoot yourself in the foot. Make a character you want to play. If you don't want to steal the show you can choose not to attack the next bad guy after you have killed the first bad guy.


I don't think that "not stealing the show" is quite equitable to "play something else".

I can play lots of classes and most if not all can be built- quite legally- to steal the show. Its not that hard with most of them.

I appreciate the input (truly) but I'm not trying to say "I want a summoner, how can I build one that sucks". Heck I can do that myself.

I'm lookin for the things that folks think make Big E too powerful, so that I can hopefully look through the list and first: agree/disagree with them or mqake sure that I avoid some big problem that some of those folks see.

Playing some other class isn't playing the Summoner and doesn't really address the issue at all.

If I came here asking for advice on the wizard and how not to overshadow everyone for example I might expect to see input on not dumping every stat to 7 so I can have a 20 int or on some spells to avoid as they tend to make the rest of the group act as the wizard's henchmen or whatever.

"play something else if you don't want to supermax the summoner" really isn't the sort of information I'm looking for.

-S

Grand Lodge

I really dislike that you can make a monster whose appearance doesnt at all match his abilities,Also they can have a 24 ac at level 2-3.

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