When an entry in a class says something like a "character can pick this if they are level X." Do you consider your character level or class level?
Example: Say a wizard 6/oracle (lore) 7 was picking his revelation for level 7 would he qualify for Spontaneous Symbology (APG 50) which says "You must be at least 11th
level to select this revelation." His character level is 12 total, but his Oracle class level is only 7.
Or take the lore ability from Loremaster if a Wizard 5/Loremaster 2 wants to figure out the total from the lore ability "Lore: At 2nd level, a Loremaster adds half his level to all Knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained. The bonuses gained from this ability stack with those gained from Bardic Knowledge." So does he add one half his character level which would be 7 or one half his Loremaster class level which would be 2?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Unless character level is specifically mentioned, it's always Class level.
Hence a Wizard 6/Oracle 7 is an Oracle 7 as far as all oracle abilities are concerned, including caster level, revelations etc. and a Wizard 6 as far as all wizard abilities are concerned (although Sorcerer/Oracle/Mystic Theurge would work better).
There are some exceptions, but they are clearly stated as exceptions - the Mystic Theurge is one, in that it would advance both Sorcerer and Oracle spell-casting abilities simultaneously.
Is there a place in the rules it specifically states that class level is assumed unless character level is otherwise stated?
If that is not the case then why not take a new class at every level?
The charts and the text show you what happens at various class levels. You jump to another class and you have to use the new class's rules.
The Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, pages 30-31, under the sub-heading "Multiclassing" which starts bottom right of page 30.
I am talking about prerequisites for abilities and feats and such. I understand that if you take 3 levels in rogue and 4 levels in fighter you don't get Sneak attack +4d6, sneak attack specifically states "This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels
thereafter" . But as well outlined in my above examples my question is for ability prerequisites when you get a choice.
I will reiterate my example. With a Wizard 5/Oracle 6 can he choose the revelation Spontaneous Symbology? Spontaneous symbology says; "You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation" it does not say you must be at least a 11th level oracle to select this revelation.
Where as the sneak attack example says specifically it increases for every two rogue levels. Where the Spontaneous Symbology just asks for 11th level, no specific class mentioned.
I am talking about prerequisites for abilities and feats and such. I understand that if you take 3 levels in rogue and 4 levels in fighter you don't get Sneak attack +4d6, sneak attack specifically states "This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels
thereafter" . But as well outlined in my above examples my question is for ability prerequisites when you get a choice.I will reiterate my example. With a Wizard 5/Oracle 6 can he choose the revelation Spontaneous Symbology? Spontaneous symbology says; "You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation" it does not say you must be at least a 11th level oracle to select this revelation.
Where as the sneak attack example says specifically it increases for every two rogue levels. Where the Spontaneous Symbology just asks for 11th level, no specific class mentioned.
You CANNOT take Spontaneous Symbology. Whenever "level" is mentioned, it is always class level unless it specifically says character level. Always. (Except where there's an error, but I don't know of any.)
More examples Rage Powers, Clear Mind "A barbarian must be at least 8th level before selecting this power."
A Fighter 5/Barbarian 3 is 8th level.
Bardic Knowledge: "A bard adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained."
So the Bard adds half his bard class level to all knowledge skill checks.
But
Lore: "At 2nd level, a loremaster adds half his level to all Knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained."
The loremaster adds half his level, it doesn't say "class level" like bardic knowledge, it says "adds half his level" it's the same ability written to very different ways. If it was to be assumed that a loremaster only adds half his loremaster levels why does it not specify that like the bard does, if the loremaster only adds 1/2 his class level it should read, Lore: At 2nd level, a loremaster adds half his class level to all knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained.
Alchemy: "an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check."
Bombs: "An alchemist can use a number of bombs each day equal to his class level + his Intelligence modifier."
Both specifically state class level.
Art of deception: "A master spy adds her class level to all Bluff, Disguise, and Sense Motive checks."
Again specifically it says a master spy adds her "class level" but in the same class on the same page it says;
Superficial Knowledge: "she can make untrained Knowledge and Profession checks pertaining to her cover or assumed identity as if she were trained and gains a bonus equal to half her level on these checks."
"Gains a bonus equal to half her level on these checks." Same page same class. Shouldn't that say "Gains a bonus equal to half her class level on these checks"?
When do the rules ever state character level versus class level? I've only ever seen entries either say "adds his or her class level" or "adds his or her level" The only time it's ever specified is when it's generic "level" or specific "class level"
From Core pg. 31 "Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character’s level or Hit Dice. Such effects
are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
I read that as, if a class ability has a specific level prerequisite like Spontaneous Symbology prerequisite is level 11. I can take that as a character level 11 not an oracle class level 11, but I have to be at an oracle level where I can learn a revelation. So if my character was wizard 6/oracle 5. I wouldn't be able to learn the ability because the oracle level 5 does not learn a revelation at the 5th oracle level. However in two levels when he's wizard 6/oracle 7, since he reached the oracle level required to learn another revelation, and since he's level 13 he should be able to spontaneous symbology.
When do the rules ever state character level versus class level? I've only ever seen entries either say "adds his or her class level" or "adds his or her level" The only time it's ever specified is when it's generic "level" or specific "class level"
Rule of thumb: Any time you see level, it means class level unless it says it doesn't. There are a few feats in 3.5 that increase the effective class level for class abilities if you have multiple classes, but they are the exceptions, not the rule.
From Core pg. 31 "Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character’s level or Hit Dice. Such effects
are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
Bold for emphasis, it answers your question below.
I read that as, if a class ability has a specific level prerequisite like Spontaneous Symbology prerequisite is level 11. I can take that as a character level 11 not an oracle class level 11, but I have to be at an oracle level where I can learn a revelation.
No. Read the sections in bold above. "Level" when referring to a class ability, means class level. Therefore, any class ability refers to class level.
So if my character was wizard 6/oracle 5. I wouldn't be able to learn the ability because the oracle level 5 does not learn a revelation at the 5th oracle level. However in two levels when he's wizard 6/oracle 7, since he reached the oracle level required to learn another revelation, and since he's level 13 he should be able to spontaneous symbology.
Nope. You are a level 7 oracle gaining a class ability. When gaining a class ability, it's only levels in the class that count, just like it says above. End of.
As you highlighted above it says "most".
"The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
I define that as class abilities which show progression on a class table, as well as any defined as increase by class level. Not (unspecified) level.
While I would definitely agree most class abilities are subject to the specific class level of the class itself. I will continue to work under the general versus specific rule. If it does not specifically say "class level" then I will take that as meaning character level. That is my end of discussion.
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Dabbler is correct. The key here is that the abilities you are referring to are all class abilities, and therfore are dependent on class level, not character level. The exceptions, as you noted, clearly state character level. The oracle in your example should not be able to take the Spontaneous Symbology class ability, even with a feat. You may, of course, choose to houserule it, in which case the GM has the final say and may allow it. Just be aware that it is not RAW nor RAI, as the many posts here should indicate.
As you highlighted above it says "most".
"The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class."
Yes, and as I stated, IF IT DOES NOT SAY CHARACTER LEVEL, IT MEANS CLASS LEVEL. What part of that do you find difficult to grasp?
I define that as class abilities which show progression on a class table, as well as any defined as increase by class level. Not (unspecified) level.
Almost everything does get a mention in the class progression table. Revelations? They get mentioned, therefore (by your logic) they are governed by class level; the meaning of 'level' didn't suddenly change when you read up on them in more detail, and why should it? Everyone on the boards here will tell you the same thing.
While I would definitely agree most class abilities are subject to the specific class level of the class itself. I will continue to work under the general versus specific rule. If it does not specifically say "class level" then I will take that as meaning character level. That is my end of discussion.
Which general rule is that? The general rule as stated in the rules is "level = class level", there is no other general rules that have an effect on this. When a character class refers to level, why wouldn't it mean levels in that class?
When it is something not linked to any specific class, such as skill ranks, feats etc. then sure, why wouldn't it mean character level? But in the description of the class, it's going to mean class level. The general rule says that it means class level. Only you say otherwise, nothing else.
You came here and asked advice. We told you what the rules mean. There's the FAQ section on the PFSRD if you want to look it up. It will all tell you the same thing: that if you are reading abilities specific to a given class, "level" means "class level". It has done so since the D&D basic set, advanced set, advanced 2nd edition, 3rd edition, 3.5 and into Pathfinder - I know, I've played 'em all over thirty+ years.
I'm not saying this stuff just to spoil your day, I'm saying it because you are incorrect in your interpretation and it's only going to come back and bite you as a DM if you go down this road, and I'd rather spare you the grief.
I am talking about prerequisites for abilities and feats and such. I understand that if you take 3 levels in rogue and 4 levels in fighter you don't get Sneak attack +4d6, sneak attack specifically states "This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels
thereafter" . But as well outlined in my above examples my question is for ability prerequisites when you get a choice.I will reiterate my example. With a Wizard 5/Oracle 6 can he choose the revelation Spontaneous Symbology? Spontaneous symbology says; "You must be at least 11th level to select this revelation" it does not say you must be at least a 11th level oracle to select this revelation.
Where as the sneak attack example says specifically it increases for every two rogue levels. Where the Spontaneous Symbology just asks for 11th level, no specific class mentioned.
If you look at the oracle class chart it tells you what your class level must be to select any revelation at all. You can not pick a revelation anytime you level up in oracle any more than you can pick ranger bonus feats at any ranger random level.
You should notice, and I will use the ranger for this example is that the Table says "Table: Ranger". That is telling what the class levels need to be.Are you really suggesting that everyone playing the game, and even those who made the are doing it wrong. Even if you look at a published character and reverse engineer it you will see it follows what we are saying because no published character uses your method.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that whenever something is based on your total levels they use the term Hit Dice, not character level.
Are you really suggesting that everyone playing the game, and even those who made the are doing it wrong. Even if you look at a published character and reverse engineer it you will see it follows what we are saying because no published character uses your method.
Just to play devil's advocate, that's exactly what's going on with monk Flurry of Blows right now. And the fact that no published character has multiclassed and taken an ability based on character level instead of class level doesn't invalidate the premise that it's legal to do so. It just means that no one writing a published character has actually done so.
Also, the fact it says "most of which" does leave the door open for ambiguity. How can you tell that any specific example that uses "level" is part of the "most" or part of the exceptions?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that whenever something is based on your total levels they use the term Hit Dice, not character level.
They use either one depending on the situation.
As an example some monster abilities are based on racial HD, while others are based on total HD.
The monk FoB does not you get you the extra off-hand attacks based on total character level.
The OP is asking in general which "most of which" supports. Using his interpretation "most of which" may not hold true.
There is still the class table which is different from the table telling you what you get at various character, which includes feats(the ones everyone gets, and extra ability points.
At no point does that character table dictate when you get access to class features.
It's truly simple:
1) Does the ability in question appear in the character class description? If "yes", go to 2, else go to 3.
2) Does the ability specify character level or hit dice? If "yes", go to 3, else go to 4.
3) The ability is based on character level or hit dice, unless it says otherwise..
4) Only levels in the specific class count.
There do not exist any exceptions. The word "most" means (in this case) "unless you are told differently".