I'm reading up on using dispel magic (or greater dispel magic) to counterspell and am having trouble figuring out what the dispel check DC is supposed to be. The spell description says that dispel magic "targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell".
Backtracking to the targeted dispel option of the spell it initially says: "One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends."
But then, reading ahead a bit, it says: "You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area. You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends."
So which of the two applies to counterspelling? Is the check DC (11 + the spell's caster level) or the targeted spell's save DC? It seems to me that the second one makes more sense since it means that it's easier to counterspell lower level than higher level spells.
For that matter, why are two different systems used for setting dispel DCs? Isn't that needlessly confusing?
Thoughts?
When used as a counterspell it is (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level).
Your 3rd sentence is referring to magic that is already in effect.
When you counterspell you are basically trying to stop the spell before it begins.
Your 3rd sentence is referring to magic that is already in effect.
Both examples refer to spells that are already in effect since both the first and second parts end by saying "that spell ends" and "that spell, it ends" respectively. Neither says anything about spells that haven't yet been cast.
I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion when both parts seem equally ambiguous.
When you counterspell you are trying to cancel the spell before it happens.
When you target a single specific spell that is in effect it says to use the 3rd paragraph.
end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area. You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends
From the quote when you try to end a specific ongoing spell you use the DC of the spell.
edit:clarity
From the quote when you try to end a specific ongoing spell you use the DC of the spell.
To me, that reads like a more accurate description of what a caster is doing when attempting to counterspell than the first parapraph, which can be applied more broadly to target spells blindly along with objects and creatures. The sentence in the third paragraph which states: "You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way" even sounds like the first step in counterspelling; requiring a successful spellcraft check to identify a spell before counterspelling.
If you can identify the spell you are trying to dispel, the DC is usually lower.
If you can't, it's usually higher.
There's a dev post on this somewhere, but I can't seem to find it yet.
From the quote when you try to end a specific ongoing spell you use the DC of the spell.To me, that reads like a more accurate description of what a caster is doing when attempting to counterspell than the first parapraph, which can be applied more broadly to target spells blindly along with objects and creatures. The sentence in the third paragraph which states: "You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way" even sounds like the first step in counterspelling; requiring a successful spellcraft check to identify a spell before counterspelling.
...but the spell you are trying to use the mechanic for is not activated yet.
The mechanic calls for you to know the spell, and for it to be in effect, not just one or the other.
If you can identify the spell you are trying to dispel, the DC is usually lower. If you can't, it's usually higher. There's a dev post on this somewhere, but I can't seem to find it yet.
Ah! That's an interesting twist I hadn't considered. I'd love to read that post.
...but the spell you are trying to use the mechanic for is not activated yet. The mechanic calls for you to know the spell, and for it to be in effect, not just one or the other.
Both mechanics, as described, call for the spell to be in effect; but we know one of them can also be applied to spells yet to be cast for the purpose of counterspelling. The problem is figuring which. As for knowing the prerequisite of knowing which spell to target, that can be accomplished easily with a successful spellcraft check; which is what you'd be doing anyways if you were looking to perform a conventional counterspell. So it's possible to meet both prerequisites of the third paragraph to target a spell for counterspelling.
After reading the entire spell I think I see my error.
You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster's spell.
The last ability I believe is referring to counterspelling.
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends. If not, compare the same result to the spell with the next highest caster level. Repeat this process until you have dispelled one spell affecting the target, or you have failed to dispel every spell.
This seems to be used to dispel any random spell. It keep going until something is dispelled or it has failed to at least once against every active buff. This explanation assumes you are trying to dispel a spell of course.
You can also use a targeted dispel to specifically end one spell affecting the target or one spell affecting an area (such as a wall of fire). You must name the specific spell effect to be targeted in this way. If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends. No other spells or effects on the target are dispelled if your check is not high enough to end the targeted effect.
The last one seems to work if you know what you want to dispel.
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
A spellcaster can use dispel magic to counterspell another spellcaster, but it doesn't always work.
The rules for counterspelling also say you must know the spell. Using dispel magic to counterspell has no rules exceptions.
-----------------------------------------------What we now know is that you must know the spell in order to counter spell.
Dispel magic has one mechanic for when you exactly which spell you want to counterspell, and another for when you do not.
This goes against my previous answer, but I think the paragraph that says the spellcraft DC is based on the DC of the spell seems to be the correct one.
What we now know is that you must know the spell in order to counter spell.
I don't know. It makes sense for a conventional counterspell when you need to cast the same spell (or an opposed spell) as your target. But it seems that being hit with dispel magic at the moment of casting might also disrupt one's spellcasting too; regardless of whether the dispeller knew exactly what you were casting or not. Perhaps not RAW as you pointed out, but it seems to make sense.
Dispel magic has one mechanic for when you exactly which spell you want to counterspell, and another for when you do not.
This would seem to be in line with what Cheapy said, and makes a certain amount of sense. So the dispel check DC would be the targeted spell's save DC if the counterspeller had identified the spell being cast via spellcraft or 11 + the spell's caster level if he failed on the spellcraft check.
Now if only I could find that developer post he mentioned...
It's a simple dispel check, period.
Right... So what's the DC?
Like the man said if you're doing dispel, a few posts ago, opposing caster level +11.
The man you're talking about, Wraithstrike, later reversed his opinion.
If you're asking about the DC's for identifying spells for counterspelling
I'm not.
the extra reading will be of benefit.
Perhaps reading through the whole thread would be of benefit too.
Your confusion is resulting from the other uses of dispel magic.
My confusion is a result of there being no clear indication of which part of a targeted dispel, the first or third paragraph, applies to counterspelling.
Targeted Dispels are for something entirely different, removing buffs. Dispelling for counterspell is a separate specific use of the spell.
You're right. Except that the counterspell section of the spell description doesn't say how to calculate the DC of the dispel check. The section of targeted dispels above it is the only place in the spell description which shows how to calculate dispel check DC; only it lists two different means of calculating it (one in the first paragraph and another in the third paragraph) with no clear indication of which to use for counterspelling.
Wraithstrike originally believed, as you do, that it was the one in the first paragraph but later changed his mind to the other method. Cheapy seems to think that both are valid with the difference being whether the counterspeller knows which spell he is attempting to counter or not.
Ambrus - your confusion, I believe, lies in reading-in one extra word.
"One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make one dispel check (1d20 + your caster level) and compare that to the spell with highest caster level (DC = 11 + the spell's caster level). If successful, that spell ends."
..."You can also ... If your caster level check is equal to or higher than the DC of that spell, it ends."
So which of the two applies to counterspelling?
The two are the same. I believe you're reading that bolded section as "the save DC of that spell". It should properly be read as "the DC of that spell".
For that matter, why are two different systems used for setting dispel DCs? Isn't that needlessly confusing?
There are not.
The DC when dispelling or counterspelling with dispel magic is always 11+spellcaster level of the spell being dispelled. The wording in question is emphasizing that you don't need to overcome the highest spellcaster level, only the DC set by that spell and it's caster's level.
The two are the same. I believe you're reading that bolded section as "the save DC of that spell".
Ah. You are correct; I was reading "the DC of that spell" as "the save DC" of the spell. That'd simplify the matter considerably and make sense as well. Where were you ten posts ago? ;)
Happy to help.