I'm building up a campaign setting that goes into adult topics. Specifically, I plan to use my copy of The Book of Erotic Fantasy when building the cultures and when RPing certain characters. I also plan to eventually do a PBP off this site. This PBP is planned to go into topics such as rape (the incident happens "off camera" [I'm not going to far as to write out a rape scene], but it has a major effect on the storyline), genocide, racism (both human on non-human and human on human), homosexuality, and consensual sexual relations.
I'm particularly worried about the sex and racism. I use cultures based off of real life ones, so the racism isn't just elves and orcs going at it. Is Paizo going to tolerate this, or is it a definite no-no?
I ask this because I want to put the campaign setting, once finished, on the internet as a PDF with a Pathfinder compatible tag, which means I have to get a compatibility license. Paizo's rules for this specifically mention not going heavily into adult content. Furthermore, I am using the Book of Erotic Fantasy to help build this world, and that got refused a D&D compatibility license.
To paraphrase, can I have coverage of sexual behavior and human on human racism based off of real life cultures in a Pathfinder compatible pdf, or not? Can I run a PBP campaign set in said world off of this website, or not? Finally, could I get a set of clear limits on what Paizo will and will not tolerate in this regard?
This is an example of questions that should not be asked. The point is that Paizo wants the decision to be up to their discretion. If you do ask these questions, this means they will have to say no. Generally, if you think it is a problem, it is. Now, rape and sex are dangerous topics, but I would say racism and genocide should depend on how it is portrayed in the game. With consensual sex, it is typically fade to black, isn't it?
Sorry if I presume to know too much here, Paizo.
The thing is, if I don't ask the question, they I don't know if they will tolerate what I want to do, and I don't want to go and post the PBP only to have the mods have to come along and do something about it.
I feel that I should be able to ask for clarification on the rules they wrote.
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The problem from Paizo's perspective is no matter what they say, they lose. No matter where they define a line of acceptability, someone (not to imply you) will at some point push it. Furthermore some are bound to find the stance too puritan. (wait what, violent gory deaths are ok but people in Golarion apparently never have sex? How do they reproduce!?!)
Publishing a resource is going to be tricky and all I can hope is someone gets with you to privately talk about what Paizo sees as being in their own interests.. and if not I'm sure it's not too hard to figure out contact info for Pazio developers/officers and get with them directly/proactively.
For a PBP, I'd go out on a limb and suggest that so long as you keep things tasteful, you should be in the clear. If the website monitors feel you cross a line, I'd bet they'd contact you and tell you what exactly they don't want to see again and encourage you to keep your campaign going (with that guidance in mind) rather than shut down a living campaign.
The thing is, if I don't ask the question, they I don't know if they will tolerate what I want to do, and I don't want to go and post the PBP only to have the mods have to come along and do something about it.
I feel that I should be able to ask for clarification on the rules they wrote.
What you are doing is ask them for a carte blanche. You want it to be up to you, not them. As has been stated, they lose if they give it to you.
What you are doing is ask them for a carte blanche. You want it to be up to you, not them. As has been stated, they lose if they give it to you.The thing is, if I don't ask the question, they I don't know if they will tolerate what I want to do, and I don't want to go and post the PBP only to have the mods have to come along and do something about it.
I feel that I should be able to ask for clarification on the rules they wrote.
Perhaps I worded the OP poorly. What I want to know is what I can reasonably expect to be tolerated, and shared some of my plans to help them come up with an answer.
If answering is really going to be a lose/lose for Paizo, perhaps I could ask the mods to lock this thread without an answer to the question one way or the other, then write what I want to write and send it to someone from Paizo before I do anything with it and let them decide if I went too far. As for teh PBP, I'll take the above suggestion of just trying to be tasteful and not getting mad if the mods step it.
I'll just suggest the advice the others have given and simply not continue with this thread, as you're more or less bound to attract attackers. Also, I truly hope your campaign contains some therapy for the rape victim (or that the victim manages to recover from it) and a swift vengeance on the one who did it. And right now, I feel like I'm one of the few who doesn't want to use rape as a plot point, or include it at all despite it probably being rather prevalent in some areas of Golarion and other worlds.
This is an example of questions that should not be asked. The point is that Paizo wants the decision to be up to their discretion. If you do ask these questions, this means they will have to say no. Generally, if you think it is a problem, it is. Now, rape and sex are dangerous topics, but I would say racism and genocide should depend on how it is portrayed in the game. With consensual sex, it is typically fade to black, isn't it?
Sorry if I presume to know too much here, Paizo.
This is pretty much the answer here, a good rule of thumb for these things is, "If you have to ask, the answers probably no."
I'll just suggest the advice the others have given. Also, I truly hope your campaign contains some therapy for the rape victim and a swift vengeance on the one who did it =D
The BBEG is the one responsible, so the guy who did it isn't getting away with it.
As much as I am glad to hear that, I am pretty sure the pro-rape/"pro-realism" folk will wanna call you bad names on the internet for giving the players such a chance. Then again, this might be just my inner cynic talking, and Pathfinder/D&D is all about kicking realism in the face on most of the occasions. Lastly, you didn't mention if the victim will recover or not...
Really? I've never heard of that. Then again, I'm not complaining about it.
Good on you.
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I believe this is where the OGC comes into play... and if you want to publish it just so long as you don't mention any game by name you can list it being compatible with OGL/OGC and go through a different publisher. At least if you are in the US. I found that out reading copyright laws for my group's work.
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racism (both human on non-human and human on human)You think human-on-human racism is realistic in a world like Golarion?
As i read long ago in Shadowrun 2.0:
"What should it worry you that the skin of the guy next to you in the subway is slightly more tanned, when that thing over there" (a troll) " has fists as large as you head?"
I could see it when it comes to nationality and such besides she said it was a world she was making didn't she
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The Pathfinder Compatibility License contains a "no adult content" clause.I always found it interesting (for a lack of a better word) that in RPGs there is no problem having evil guys murdering, torturing, dismembering, ... (long long list) their victims and display it all in a gruesome arrangement (e.g. jade regent 4 contains such a room, also a room with poor victims who have been tortured for months) and this is no problem.
But other things are off, although they are both legally and from a moral point of view less worse than what a normal BBEG des all day long.
Pregen Fighter: "...an evening of hard drinking and a night of soft company."
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The Pathfinder Compatibility License contains a "no adult content" clause.I always found it interesting (for a lack of a better word) that in RPGs there is no problem having evil guys murdering, torturing, dismembering, ... (long long list) their victims and display it all in a gruesome arrangement (e.g. jade regent 4 contains such a room, also a room with poor victims who have been tortured for months) and this is no problem.
But other things are off, although they are both legally and from a moral point of view less worse than what a normal BBEG des all day long.
Paizo is an American company.
In US gore=fine, sex=bad.
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The Pathfinder Compatibility License contains a "no adult content" clause.I always found it interesting (for a lack of a better word) that in RPGs there is no problem having evil guys murdering, torturing, dismembering, ... (long long list) their victims and display it all in a gruesome arrangement (e.g. jade regent 4 contains such a room, also a room with poor victims who have been tortured for months) and this is no problem.
But other things are off, although they are both legally and from a moral point of view less worse than what a normal BBEG des all day long.
Paizo is an American company.
In US gore=fine, sex=bad.
Not if it carries an indicator that it is meant for mature audiences.
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Not if it carries an indicator that it is meant for mature audiences.The Pathfinder Compatibility License contains a "no adult content" clause.I always found it interesting (for a lack of a better word) that in RPGs there is no problem having evil guys murdering, torturing, dismembering, ... (long long list) their victims and display it all in a gruesome arrangement (e.g. jade regent 4 contains such a room, also a room with poor victims who have been tortured for months) and this is no problem.
But other things are off, although they are both legally and from a moral point of view less worse than what a normal BBEG des all day long.
Paizo is an American company.
In US gore=fine, sex=bad.
Which is a killer for selling anything.
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Which is a killer for selling anything.Not if it carries an indicator that it is meant for mature audiences.The Pathfinder Compatibility License contains a "no adult content" clause.I always found it interesting (for a lack of a better word) that in RPGs there is no problem having evil guys murdering, torturing, dismembering, ... (long long list) their victims and display it all in a gruesome arrangement (e.g. jade regent 4 contains such a room, also a room with poor victims who have been tortured for months) and this is no problem.
But other things are off, although they are both legally and from a moral point of view less worse than what a normal BBEG des all day long.
Paizo is an American company.
In US gore=fine, sex=bad.
How so? You might just be surprised.
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How so? You might just be surprised.Which is a killer for selling anything.Not if it carries an indicator that it is meant for mature audiences.The Pathfinder Compatibility License contains a "no adult content" clause.I always found it interesting (for a lack of a better word) that in RPGs there is no problem having evil guys murdering, torturing, dismembering, ... (long long list) their victims and display it all in a gruesome arrangement (e.g. jade regent 4 contains such a room, also a room with poor victims who have been tortured for months) and this is no problem.
But other things are off, although they are both legally and from a moral point of view less worse than what a normal BBEG des all day long.
Paizo is an American company.
In US gore=fine, sex=bad.
We might be surprised, but the higher-ups of the Paizo guys (Vic, Lisa, James, Jason, Erik, etc) think otherwise.
And given their record of commercial success, I'm inclined to give their reasons more pull compared to my rather bland desire to read about explicit sex, abuse, and so on in an RPG product.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm building up a campaign setting that goes into adult topics. Specifically, I plan to use my copy of The Book of Erotic Fantasy when building the cultures and when RPing certain characters.
Do not do this, do not open the book of erotic fantasy. That book is terribly inane, silly, and has art that will kill even the most fierce of desires.
I also plan to eventually do a PBP off this site.
Then don't go into graphically explicit detail about sex. As a story teller you should be showing that sexuality has an impact in your world, rather than telling what is oozing or engorged. Use clever wordplay to skirt around the issue of sex, most words in shakespear's plays are sexual sland and innuendo from his time period. All cultures have sexual practices, if you look into those more unique sexual practices, they often manifest in culture and religious practices. Cultural practices around the culture of sex in your setting will be more evocative to players than what specific acts look like and/or a how to guide.
This PBP is planned to go into topics such as rape (the incident happens "off camera" [I'm not going to far as to write out a rape scene], but it has a major effect on the storyline),
What? Like, pregnancy? Or war? If you are not typing out a rape then why would you need to ask permission? Look at the bestiary entry for skum. Or half-orcs, or orcs regarding half-orcs.
Are you trying to explore the psychological impact of the rape? Are you forcing player characters to deal with their characters being raped? I don't get it.
If you want to include rape you can just say "She bares his child now, but not by choice." and be done with it. Showing, not telling is the mark of a good storyteller anyway.
genocide, racism (both human on non-human and human on human), homosexuality, and consensual sexual relations.
None of the these things are controversial. Hobgoblins are genocidal, most evil humanoids are genocidal, goblins ACTUALLY eat babies. Some nonevil humanoids are genocidal, some cultures are genocidal. This is all within the pathfinder campaign setting cannon.
I'm particularly worried about the sex and racism. I use cultures based off of real life ones, so the racism isn't just elves and orcs going at it. Is Paizo going to tolerate this, or is it a definite no-no?
Human on human racism exists between Chelish colonialists and the Mwangi in the inner sea world guide and pathfinder campaign setting respectively.
Also, there is an encounter in Pathfinder #1 Burnt Offerings involving sexual promiscuity and misconduct of certain NPCs and the ramifications it can have on the characters in game if not handled delicately.
In other words, why are you even asking this question?
So, to be clear, you want to have a section in your published campaign setting about how the characters are supposed to have sex based on their region? The book of Erotic Fantasy was probably refused on the grounds of eye-raping art and stupid, stuuuupid spells alone. LOOK AT ME, I HAVE A GIANT PENIS ARM SPELL.
I blame the book of Erotic Fantasy for everything bad about 4th edition.
To paraphrase, can I have coverage of sexual behavior and human on human racism based off of real life cultures in a Pathfinder compatible pdf, or not? Can I run a PBP campaign set in said world off of this website, or not? Finally, could I get a set of clear limits on what Paizo will and will not tolerate in this regard?
You haven't stated what sexual things you would be including, other than things that already can be covered or have been covered in Paizo content. Besides describing explicit details of rape, that I know of. Again, look at the skum and orc entries in the bestiary, its an excellent example of how to tactfully include information about sex in your fluff.
Aaaand Archomedes just asked all that was needed to be asked. +1, dude.
And given their record of commercial success, I'm inclined to give their reasons more pull compared to my rather bland desire to read about explicit sex, abuse, and so on in an RPG product.
I don't have a desire to read it, too, but I find it silly that all sorts of depravity and violence is tolerated (goblins eating babies, skum kidnapping and raping women to produce their hideous offspring), whereas I doubt that you'll find the word nipple in any paizo product. Newsflash - we all have them.
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And given their record of commercial success, I'm inclined to give their reasons more pull compared to my rather bland desire to read about explicit sex, abuse, and so on in an RPG product.I don't have a desire to read it, too, but I find it silly that all sorts of depravity and violence is tolerated (goblins eating babies, skum kidnapping and raping women to produce their hideous offspring), whereas I doubt that you'll find the word nipple in any paizo product. Newsflash - we all have them.
Don't know if I got it right, but I fear what gets the mark of "explicit sex and abuse" to me might be horribly different than the occasional one-liners about reproductive adbuctions, pup-eating, or monsters... well, doing monstrous things.
Are you saying rape isn't a case of "explicit sex and abuse", both in a sick, twisted package?
Oh, and humans do it too (sadly more often than thought). So, does that make us all monsters as well?
I was joking in a twisted way, actually. But yeah, I get what you mean.
Kobold Quarterly #13 has a good article on the topic of sex and romance in gaming. You may like to check it out.
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Really? I've never heard of that. Then again, I'm not complaining about it.
It definately does. In fact, recently Super Genius Games revised one of their products because it had some content (illustrations, I think) that did not conform to that aspect of the The Pathfinder Compatibility License .
Speaking of the The Pathfinder Compatibility License, the original poster mentioned wanting to use content from the Book of Erotic Fantasy in this endevor. Since the Book of Erotic Fantasy is definately not Pathfinder compatible or OGL, I'm fairly certain that including content from it will mean you will not be able to use the Pathfinder compatable moniker in any event.
I am pretty sure the reason fr the "no adult content" clause is very simple, then Paizo doesn't have to police or make decisions on what is too much.
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Speaking of the The Pathfinder Compatibility License, the original poster mentioned wanting to use content from the Book of Erotic Fantasy in this endevor. Since the Book of Erotic Fantasy is definately not Pathfinder compatible or OGL, I'm fairly certain that including content from it will mean you will not be able to use the Pathfinder compatable moniker in any event.
I'm pretty sure the BoEF is OGL; it must be, since the contents are described in OGL mechanics (save DCs, BAB, levels, etc).
It was the more specific WotC d20 licence that was refused, and if memory serves me right, was one of the justifications used for a rewrite of that licence.
Senior Software Developer
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Yeah, we're really not going to answer a question like that. There are too many things that can go wrong with trying to set out specific boundary lines for content, which is why our messageboards rules are generally "don't be a jerk". Too many opportunities for someone to play rules lawyer and wedge stuff in that they know is over the line and want to get away with something.
I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread as per the thread creator's request because we don't need to be moderating a "how do you roleplay rape" thread over the weekend.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The only answer we are willing to provide is exactly what it says in the Compatibility License:
"You may not use this License for products that the general public would classify as 'adult content,' offensive, or inappropriate for minors."
(Our Community Use Policy also has a similar clause.)
If you think that the general public would classify your product as "adult content," offensive, or inappropriate for minors, then, as pointed out above, you can still publish it under the OGL—you just can't mention Pathfinder (except for listing any products you're drawing Open Game Content from in your OGL Section 15 Copyright Notice).