Dangit. Hell with the grammar nazis.
please stop don't fight in front of the children!
Children? Excellent. *Gets out fork, knife and napkin*
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Hey, Mikaze and Icyshadow. I have an idea. Lets collaborate on a non-orc PDF and offer it up for people to download.Sounds fine with me. I'll see when I get the time for it.
@Seekerofshadowlight:
Orcs can be orcs, even without being evil, just like there probably were lots of Chaotic Neutral orcs in 3.5e by canon. Also, that comment about orcs not being orcs without the evil label sounded very racist, like saying all Irish people are drunkards or else they wouldn't be Irish. Then again, I am just getting the feeling that you don't like the Warcraft series for some reason ;D
Yes, him saying that all orcs are evil is JUST like saying all Irishmen are drunkards. Yup, nothing wrong with that logic.
As many grammar nazis will point out, a species =/= a race. Especially when it's a fictional species, and the preference for evil orcs is a stylistic one. He believes that the orc species (okay, 'race' is more practical, but I can't be a hypocrite in this post) is defined by its malice, just like dwarves are defined by mining. You change it, you change the race.
We already determined that orcs are a race. How do you manage to walk and breathe at the same time?
Also . . .
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I see your point Derek, but the problem is that unless you have something official, the "traditionalists" like Seeker here are going to attack you with accusations of "doing it wrong" and such. You cannot play D&D wrong. You can play Baldur's Gate wrong, you can play World of Warcraft wrong, but THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG WAY TO PLAY PATHFINDER OR D&D...unless you are a munchkin or something.
Then don't play with Seeker. Problem solved. You'd probably like my homebrew, you can play any kind of orc you like. People might look at you funny, but as long as you're not burning stuff up, they tend to leave you alone.
As many grammar nazis will point out, a species =/= a race. Especially when it's a fictional species, and the preference for evil orcs is a stylistic one. He believes that the orc species (okay, 'race' is more practical, but I can't be a hypocrite in this post) is defined by its malice, just like dwarves are defined by mining. You change it, you change the race.
As many grammar nazis will point out, a species =/= a race.
nazis
[Grammar Nazi Nazi]NEIN![/Grammar Nazi Nazi]
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I'm not imagining someone wanting Paizo to make a book saying orcs aren't just xp.Well then you should say that, instead of making up blanket generalizations about people needing official permissions to do things.Guysguysguys please stop don't fight in front of the children! You are both too awesome!
Are you going to get a divorce?
Man, if his wife finds out we're married, we're so dead...
not burning stuff up
We already determined that orcs are a race. How do you manage to walk and breathe at the same time?
How do you goblins manage to walk and breathe at the--
*Watches a goblin trip and fall off a cliff*Oh, yeah, you don't.
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We already determined that orcs are a race. How do you manage to walk and breathe at the same time?How do you goblins manage to walk and breathe at the same--?
*Watches a goblin leap off a cliff in pursuit of a butterfly*
Oh, wait, you don't.
Yes it is called "flying and breathing."
Why do you think he wanted that butterfly?
(What I'm saying here is that we don't weight as much as a bunch of fat kobolds who sit on their bellies and eat grass all day.)
We already determined that orcs are a race. How do you manage to walk and breathe at the same time?How do you goblins manage to walk and breathe at the same--?
*Watches a goblin leap off a cliff in pursuit of a butterfly*
Oh, wait, you don't.Yes it is called "flying and breathing."
Why do you think he wanted that butterfly?
(What I'm saying here is that we don't weight as much as a bunch of fat kobolds who sit on their bellies and eat grass all day.)
Well, we'll be eating goblin soup for the next few days. With a butterfly garnish.
Admittedly, it's not a huge step up, but at least we won't have to deal with these pesky intelligent plants. I hate sentient food.
We already determined that orcs are a race. How do you manage to walk and breathe at the same time?How do you goblins manage to walk and breathe at the same--?
*Watches a goblin leap off a cliff in pursuit of a butterfly*
Oh, wait, you don't.Yes it is called "flying and breathing."
Why do you think he wanted that butterfly?
(What I'm saying here is that we don't weight as much as a bunch of fat kobolds who sit on their bellies and eat grass all day.)
Also, kobolds eat mushrooms. I realize goblins have poor memory, but I would hope that a species as brain-dead as your own would remember this word, above all others.
This thread used to be fun. Now it's silly. Not good silly.
Still, the Commonwealth Party (M-L) is still committed to orc liberation.
Vive le Galt!
This thread used to be fun. Now it's silly. Not good silly.
Still, the Commonwealth Party (M-L) is still committed to orc liberation.
Vive le Galt!
So if goblins are Reds (or think they are, kinda like the Paranoia Communist Party), hobgoblins are nazis and orcs are anarchists, what does that make kobolds? Are we after a republic?
You are so going to get that post deleted.
(See this is why we don't post in the same thread!)
I thought that was because you're my sock puppet, and I don't like talking to myself.
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I thought that was because you're my sock puppet, and I don't like talking to myself.You are so going to get that post deleted.
(See this is why we don't post in the same thread!)
No you are my sock puppet. Retroactively. And predictively.
Oh and to answer your question I would say . . . they are like the trolls.
Nope. Never.
No you are my sock puppet. Retroactively.I thought that was because you're my sock puppet, and I don't like talking to myself.You are so going to get that post deleted.
(See this is why we don't post in the same thread!)
None of that Homestuck nonsense here!
And get lost, Jay! Your stupid hypocritical humor isn't funny!
No you are my sock puppet. Retroactively.I thought that was because you're my sock puppet, and I don't like talking to myself.You are so going to get that post deleted.
(See this is why we don't post in the same thread!)
None of that Homestuck nonsense here!
And get lost, Jay! Your stupid hypocritical humor isn't funny!
C'mon, the Favorites will start piling up any minute now.
Moving on from this nonsensical display of self-centered roleplaying, back to the original thread subject.
I think kobolds should be a part of the Darklands. They keep getting snubbed. All they need is better Darkvision and a few skill bonuses, and they can be balanced and fodder.
Also, a +8 Int bonus. Because if they were balanced, everyone would want to play one.
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No you are my sock puppet. Retroactively.I thought that was because you're my sock puppet, and I don't like talking to myself.You are so going to get that post deleted.
(See this is why we don't post in the same thread!)
None of that Homestuck nonsense here!
And get lost, Jay! Your stupid hypocritical humor isn't funny!
Okay. Stop typing whatever ridiculous thing you're typing. I have made a new thread so that we stop spamming.
Okay. Stop typing whatever ridiculous thing you're typing.
Too late.
I just realized...the Goblins of Golarion book had a section about playable goblins in Golarion. It talked about them still being the loony pyromaniacs that they usually are (and possibly still being evil), and it had something about a rule that you can roll Diplomacy in some areas to avoid people calling the guards and such if you do play as one. Anyway, I also wonder now if I am the only person here who likes kobolds and is tired of seeing them as crude comic relief?
I just realized...the Goblins of Golarion book had a section about playable goblins in Golarion. It talked about them still being the loony pyromaniacs that they usually are (and possibly still being evil), and it had something about a rule that you can roll Diplomacy in some areas to avoid people calling the guards and such if you do play as one. Anyway, I also wonder now if I am the only person here who likes kobolds and is tired of seeing them as crude comic relief?
To be fair, kobolds have it pretty good. They're so low, plenty of people came up with different versions.
Really, the core of a kobold is simple: cowardice and traps. You can do a lot with that.EDIT: When I run kobolds, and I'm not constricted by setting, I run them as sadistic cowards. A kobold will catch some heroes in a death trap, taunt them, then freak out when the tables turn.
What's important to note is that kobolds actually make awful 'xp farms', if run the way I run them. Kobolds will avoid combat whenever possible, and will only willingly enter it when they massively outnumber the enemy and when traps have failed. They're cowards, they don't rush out and get killed. They aren't fierce orcs or brainless goblins, they're kobolds, and they're scared of their own shadows.
I see your point Derek, but the problem is that unless you have something official, the "traditionalists" like Seeker here are going to attack you with accusations of "doing it wrong" and such. You cannot play D&D wrong. You can play Baldur's Gate wrong, you can play World of Warcraft wrong, but THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG WAY TO PLAY PATHFINDER OR D&D...unless you are a munchkin or something.
I have no issue with how you want to run your game, nor does how I run gamers matter to you. However I do not wish a setting to be changed into something it is not to fit your views.
If you are the GM and do not like something change it. I don't even have orcs in my setting ( or gnomes or the hated halfing for that matter). Nor do I expect paizo to make dwarves shun the mines and take to the seas like the ones in my setting.
If you do not like the traditional role of orcs, change them in games you run.
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But apparently that's badwrong.
Since I personally don't believe that half the people supporting genocide being good actually believe that nonsense, I'm gonna say that they are just baiting you, at this point, because they like to point at your reaction and say, 'see, I poked the bear and it made a funny noise!'
I mean, logically, does it make a lick of sense that people claiming to support the idea of objectively good or bad races or cultures would then attempt to weasel around such a morally subjective thing as 'always killing folk X is morally good?' That's as morally squishy as it gets, calling an evil act a good deed, so it doesn't make any sense at all that someone who prefers clear cut lines between black and white, good and evil, would support blurring the lines of moral objectivity like that.
Easier to think that they are pulling your chain.
Good point. It does seem like they're mostly just trolling us by this part. So, drawing upon Set's insightful conclusion (you get a +1 for being reasonable, dude), let us stop feeding the trolls and continue with some more silliness (since that was the original purpose of this thread)!!
Which one would win in an arm wrestling match, a goblin or a kobold?
What's the difference between a young orc and a goblin?
Really? Name 3 that aren't already taken up by some other race.If Orcs are not villians then their only niche they could fill is comedy relief which is by far a worse fate than being Evil. Just look at the kobold.Absolute false dichotomy. There are plenty of serious directions one can take orcs that don't require them to be always-evil villains.Seriously?
Okay, off the top of my head and with no effort, focusing on characterizing orcs by strength and paassion as per Irnk's take, which I agree with in part.
1. Those playing catch-up. Younger and shorter lived than the other races, they've been largely left behind in terms of technical development, and are starting with a handicap when it comes to catching up with their neighbors. They generally have more drive than the other races, and their determination often gets the best of them, causing them trouble even as it carries them through adversity. When it comes to work, they don't cleave to tradition like dwarves or take their time contemplating an issue like elves. They just get @#$% done, even if it kills them.
2. Thrill seekers. They don't live long and are thus left with a need to leave a mark on the world that will outlast them. Deeds are greater than words for them, and great acts of bravery(for good or ill) are more viable in their eyes than works that may take more time than they have. Courage is a cheap commodity for them at this point, and too many orcs live fast and die young trying to make their names.
3. OH HEY, NON-PRETTY NOBLE SAVAGE RACE TOO.
My response...man there are a lot of posts in this thread.
1. Congrats. You've just described Humans. Strike 1.
2. Congrats again. You've just described Halflings. Strike 2.
3. The pitch is inside, the batter swings, oh and he hits a line drive into left center. So, you got one on me. However, the point I was making is that A reason why Orcs do not make a good PC race is because there is no place for them BESIDES "non-pretty noble savage race" which lets face it can be boring. It's why in WoW the Horde got Blood Elves, so they could have a "pretty non-savage race". I personally like Orcs, I've even let PC's play as Orcs but I still believe that it is difficult and even a bit ludacris to see them as anything more than a race of blood thirsty savages because that is the role they fit best. If you really want to blame anyone, blame Tolkien.
The race you are wanting is not the race as presented in any version of D&d or in pathfinder.Actually orcs as "not always evil" have been in various D&D settings. It's just that even in Eberron, we never got to see them fully explored like we have for elves and dwarves several times over.
Yet when you get into the setting most of these "non evil" Orcs live pretty much like all other orcs, raiding and looting and being big evil and disorganized barbarians, then in the shadowmarches most of the "Good" places are mostly half orc with some orc thrown in while most of the "evil" places are full orcs worshiping the dragon below.
Its just the same with better PR.
this from the same guy that pushed Shadowrun not even a page back? ORKFIRST would like to have a word with you.
It was an interesting movie from a man whose sanity has waned. I even found it fascinating.
Derek, is this racist?
While hds later point on tsr is a good one, it is likewise important to note that part of what made their stuff work for me was that there was a concerted effort to not have all campaign setting be the same after a while and provide genuine support for these settings. A lot of my distaste and even hatred for fr comes from the fact that I was a fan of other settings first time and got tired of the stuff I liked being lumped in with and then overshadowed by it. That said, fans have done an excellent job of keeping such settings alive.
Again with the misrepresentation.Why do you guys keep doing that.
I am not asking for "carebear" orcs.
I am not asking for all settings to be the same.
I'm asking for genuine, quality support for non-evil orcs for PFRPG.
But apparently that's badwrong.
Orcs are monsters as are goblins,drow and oddles of other critters. why should they be shown in any other light?
There is not a single thing in the orc writ up or state block, other then the romanticized idea you have in your head that seems to make them a good option to make "less evil" and more player friendly.
You have half orcs for that.
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Goodness things became bitter in here swiftly.
I do not feel 'noble savage' applies very well to Golarion Orcs. Details hidden, as it may constitute a wall-o'-text.
An example: In my Golarion, some orcs ride horses. They train these horses to consume flesh and blood. When they have raided a town, they let their horses feast on the corpses and keep watch while they loot things. Why? Because it pleases them to do so, and while they are not smart they are clever. They are not goblins, randomly trying whatever appeals to them. Nor are they bugbears, taking joy in straight sadism. They are more sophisticated than that, in their brutal way. They found things that work, value strength and see it as the best way to do what you want at any given time. Young orcs are told to take up the axe and the falchion and change the world; when you are strong, you can tell others what to do, take what you want, and do as you please, and these are regarded as the best things.
I have my Warhammer Fantasy and 40K orks. Love 'em. Loved old Warcraft Orcs too, and even can see the appeal of WC3-and-onward orcs. But these are not those orcs. These are the ancestors of the survivors of a formerly-subterranean world-conquering horde. Belkzen is about giving previously wild tribes a single place to call home and organize around. Belkzen is about making an orc place too strong for anyone else to come in and tell the orcs what to do.
Are there non-evil orcs in my Golarion? Sure! But the core of "orc culture" as much as one can be said to exist does not know what to do with them. Does not like them either. They are not, er, "death metal" enough for the Belkzen orcs. The Shoanti, Ulfen, and Orc cultures in my setting produce an alarmingly large number of high-level fighters and barbarians. For every band of young orcs out there, raiding and murdering and laughing, there are senior orcs with stolen or crudely forged magic armaments and reputations for death-dealing. AM BARBARIAN would fit in nicely with one of these groups. He doesn't need to be clever, he just needs to know what he likes to do and be willing to boss others around into it.
This also makes orcs great minions! A dragon/wizard/lich needs muscle? Find some orcs, persuade them you are tough, and promise them a good and glorious opportunity to do what their parents and blood tell them they are born to do. They'll follow until dead or until their master proves too weak. But whatever happens, they will be back. You may have slain the dragon, but there are more villages and tribes of orcs out there. It may be another generation, but they will return.
If TL:DR, allow me to put it another way. These primarily evil orcs are a celebration of conflict for conflict's sake. They are there for my Hellknight Paladin to spit on his sword while shouting "Vae victus!" and espousing the virtue of law and civilization. They are also there to kill my Hellknight paladin, and then without hesitation spit his skull and helm on a pike to use as a trophy/standard, tacitly making the argument against law and civilization.
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Which one would win in an arm wrestling match, a goblin or a kobold?
Odds favor the goblin. Goblins are stronger, more dextrous and have more constitution. The only advantage a kobold has over a goblin is natural armor (not much use in arm-wrestling), and the added AC boost from the higher Dex bonus still results in them just breaking even with the average goblin's AC. Kobolds also have that light sensitivity thing to worry about.
On the other hand, both goblins and kobolds can outrun a gnome or halfling!
Both races are equally inclined to cheat, but the kobold is likely to have something devious planned, such as having sawed halfway through the leg of the goblin's chair, so that it collapses as they struggle to resolve this epic encounter.
The goblin, on the other hand, is more likely to have a 'pet' worg or goblin dog that will eat the kobold if he looks like he's about to win...
What's the difference between a young orc and a goblin?
The orc's drinking milk, and he's not done growing yet. :)
this from the same guy that pushed Shadowrun not even a page back? ORKFIRST would like to have a word with you.
Yep, same guy. Different game. In shadowrun Orks and trolls are human, in D&d they are made to be well beasts, much as the token orcs they are crafted from.
I said what I said as eberron gets brought up as an example, when in fact they don't really treat orcs any different at all. You might have a random "good" bunch here and there but for the most part they are just the same as every other setting.
Eberron treats orcs as they are: Usually Chaotic Evil. Meaning there'll be a number of exceptions, but the majority will remain wicked.
Golarion is definitely one of the least monster-tolerant, though. Goblins of Golarion goes to pains to state that goblins are pretty much never good. But that's just a trait of the setting, and a preference of the writers. Monstrous races are monsters.
Incidentally, I can't wait for Kobolds and Hobgoblins of Golarion. The Lawful Evil races are my favorites, and I want to see how Paizo handles it.
Personally, I'm betting kobolds are still stuck in the unexplained tribal system. Not sure why everybody's so set on kobolds only forming in small groups, but whatever.
Because law and order must prevail.
Mustn't. In fact, if you look outside of time and space, you see how it will turn out. Reality, and the law that is bound to it, will be dissolved again. Only a matter of time.
Why fight it? Why prolong the verse's suffering? Embrace the liberating dissolution!
Pretty much, which was all I was pointing out. They did nothing new at all.
Love hobgoblins myself, hate, hate, hate the new pic and I will be using the spriggan pic from B@ as the habos myself :) As for the kobolds, humm I often see them as clans like a dwarf really, but tribes are close enough. If ya notice most monster races and the "uncivilized" always get climbed into tribes.
Hobgoblins are one of my fave races, but I was surprised by how little they were spoken about in Pathfinder/Golarion compared to other settings. Then again, they seem to be kinda ignored in most of the settings, with an exception maybe being in Eberron.
Pretty much, which was all I was pointing out. They did nothing new at all.
Love hobgoblins myself, hate, hate, hate the new pic and I will be using the spriggan pic from B@ as the habos myself :) As for the kobolds, humm I often see them as clans like a dwarf really, but tribes are close enough. If ya notice most monster races and the "uncivilized" always get climbed into tribes.
Yeah, exactly. The only evil races that get more than that seem to be drow and hobgoblins.
Hobgoblin armies make a lot of sense. But drow are neutral evil. A society where every member is motivated by self-interest is not going to do as well as a society where the members want to work together, as kobolds do. But hey, Salvatore knows best. ;P
The never Might & Magic stuff (Heroes V and VI as well as Dark Messiah) has a great take on orcs:
There, they were created by the wizards by taking human bodies and putting demonic souls in them. They did that to create a weapon against the demons.
Now you have basically a half-human, half-demon thing that has near insatiable blood rage. Their hatred of humans who first created them as a mere weapon and then enslaved them is quite big at times, but it's eclipsed by their hatred of demons.
They're savages, have their own religion (they believe the dragon gods are merely aspects of Mother Earth and Father Sky), regularly give in to blood rage to fight in an unparalleled frenzy.
Many are evil (a product not only of their demon blood, but also of the pent up rage and hatred because of their situation), but not all are. In Heroes V they were, indeed, counted among the "evil/dark" races, but in VI they're neutral.
Beyond the savagery, they have other signs of barbarism (including the lifestyle) and they have shamans. They're also allied to symbolic brethren - races that were created in similar experiments: Goblins, centaurs, harpies as well as the mighty cycplopes. And Wyverns (though they were less closely allied and don't get the blood rage like the other savage races do).
IMO, they make a great example of not-necessarily-evil orcs.
Hobgoblins are one of my fave races, but I was surprised by how little they were spoken about in Pathfinder/Golarion compared to other settings. Then again, they seem to be kinda ignored in most of the settings, with an exception maybe being in Eberron.
Of course there is a country of Hobgoblins in Tian Xia, Kaoling.
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Because law and order must prevail.
Mustn't. In fact, if you look outside of time and space, you see how it will turn out. Reality, and the law that is bound to it, will be dissolved again. Only a matter of time.
Why fight it? Why prolong the verse's suffering? Embrace the liberating dissolution!
[Hellknight]
Ridiculous.
Your flight from moral agency, chaosling, is a lie. What would you do? Replace our Golarion and all the planes with copies? Mirrors? Nothing? Away with you. By Abadar's Truth I will not hear anymore of your heresy.
I have orcs to civilize. It is the only way to save them from the likes of you.
...kobolds ... hobgoblins ... goblins ...
Your questions have simple answers within Golarion. Hobgoblins and kobolds pose no threat and have no nations because they were vanquished by the thousands and driven from our good lands. The vicious and cunning nature of the hobgoblin is known within Cheliax, and so they are not suffered to live on, lest they pervert our laws or make wars of conquest upon our lands. The elves have been allies in this, e'er eager to press their diminutive and spiteful foes. Given time, I have no doubt that the hobgoblin could pose a threat, or even integrate into civilization, but it would not be for the betterment of all.
A Hobgoblin is little more than a wicked machine. It refuses the shaping of the Master Builder. So it is sundered, and we praise the Builder for his works and the Throne of Cheliax for its wisdom.
I do not know much of kobolds. But I have heard that the dwarves have no love of the tiny lizards. I presume a similar relationship to our alliance with the elves.
[/Hellknight]
You realize elves are chaotic, right?
Never said they cannot ally out of convenience. This good sir of a Hellknight is Lawful Good, a Paladin and an excellent example of a hero in Cheliax despite working with the vile Diabolists of the nation from time to time. And I seriously need to make a Pathfinder/Golarion version of my Half-Elf Cleric Emilia...
Your flight from moral agency, chaosling, is a lie. What would you do? Replace our Golarion and all the planes with copies? Mirrors? Nothing? Away with you. By Abadar's Truth I will not hear anymore of your heresy.
You guys are allowed to name any god other than the Prince of Insufficient Light?
Anyway, of course it would be replaced with copies. And mirrors. And everything else. Constantly. The Only Constant Is Change.
I have orcs to civilize. It is the only way to save them from the likes of you.
By making them arch-enemies? Good plan! :P
KaeYoss has a point, sort of. Even laws can (and sometimes should) be changed. *Suddenly, my head implodes from the paradoxical analysis*
By making them arch-enemies? Good plan! :P
"AM THOUGHT ARCH WAS DOOR? WHY U BE DOOR ENEMY? WHAT DOOR DO TO U? U RAISED IN BARN? THAT BARN NO HAVE DOOR? AM IS SAD U BARN HOME NO HAVE DOOR BUT AM NOT UNDERSTAND WHY U MAKE DOOR WAR."
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Love hobgoblins myself, hate, hate, hate the new pic and I will be using the spriggan pic from B@ as the habos myself :)
Claudio Pozas' hobgoblins are kinda neat.
The Hobgoblins of Tellene are also pretty badass.
I kinda feel the same way about the Bugbears of Golarion. I love what they did with goblins, but then attempting to adapt that artistic vision to the hobgoblins and bugbears just kind of fell flat, IMO.
Then again, I kinda like the idea that goblins don't all look alike, and could be more like the goblins in Labyrinth, a motley collection of very-different looking little blighters.
Those are neat, I just hate the paizo hob pic..just hate , hate hate it. Also hob's as romans is a really cool concept.
Humm I may now have to try and work in Hobgoblin Roamn into my homebrew, i have a few uncharted lands across the sea.