Endless Night...WTF?!


Second Darkness


Hiya.

Ok, I haven't read all the books of the AP start to finish, but I have given Endless Night the once-over (and twice, and thrice)...and I have some questions. I'm either missing something totally obvious, or...

Here are my questions and or observations.

(1) As they run through, the drow on the 'inside', a dicidedly less-than-impressive 12 drow plus 3 drider, are...quote"...caught completely off-guard". o_O So, a direct link between the elves of the surfacw world and a major drow city is guarded by a dozen low-level numphies? Totally unvelievable, IMHO. I'm going to multiply those numbers by 10; 120 drow and 30 drider. There. THAT is a guardpoint to a direct link to the elven homeland.

(2) Drow society. I really can not see how the PC's can pull off pretending to be drow by more than a few hours to a day. Drow are CE...and *constantly* looking for weakness, 'tells', lies, etc. When the PC's don't "get" local customs, sayings, history, etc...the jig, as it is, would be up. Just think if a westerner (Canadian or American, lets say) suddenly found himself transformed to look like a tribesman from the deep Amazon and speak the language as a native speaker...how long do you think it would take for the actual tribesmen to figure it out? What is the proper address to an elder? Do you bow? Shake hands? Is smiling a weakness, a show of kindness, or a sign of agression? Just what does "Two rocks to the crack", or "Wings cover dark beds", or "Secrets and wine" actually mean? Add in the CE nature of Drow and I say a few hours to a day at most.

There are probably more, but these two will do for now. Any suggestions or can anyone point out what I'm missing that covers this?

^_^

Paul L. Ming


1) This isn't a link to Kyonin but to the ruin of an abandoned elven city that the drow actually hold at the moment. The soldiers in Celwynvian itself are supposed to be the defense force; the group on the Darklands side of the portal is essentially a rear guard who, in all the decades the drow have been in Celwynvian, have never seen anyone but drow come through the portal. Remember, it can't be activated from the surface side without Nolveniss's portal key. But, as the PCs aren't actually intended to fight their way through the encounter, if you want to up the number of drow guards, go ahead; they'll just be more likely to kill the elves who volunteer for the suicide mission of getting the PCs in and undercover.

2) There is a break of at least several weeks between The Armageddon Echo and Endless Night. There's no reason why that time shouldn't be taken up with a intensive CIA-style course in drow society, taught by the elves who have fought and spied on the drow in Celwynvian for decades and using information extracted from captured enemy soldiers.


Hiya.

With regards to (2)...several weeks? Ok, I can work with that. On a similar note, is there any sort of "timeline" for how long it will take the drow to get all their ducks in a row so that they can bring about another Earthfall event? Are we talking days, weeks, months or years?

The main reason I'm asking is that my PC's seem to be far more interested in themselves rather than helping elves. They seem almost...ambivilent, with regards to another Earthfall event. Kinda like if it happened they'd just shrug their shoulders and say "Eh. Sh!t happens..." I think I need to work on getting them more attached to something and I'm thinking Riddleport. They really love owning the Gold Goblin and running it. They also like the various skullduggery going around in town. Perhaps I can do more there and give them more of an 'investment' in keeping the town safe. I'll have to paint the Cyphermages with a big target on their collective chests with regards to the drow...that way the PC's will know the drow will next target Riddleport as a 'test fire'; this, of course, would destroy Riddleport and the players and their PC's would be more invested in trying to prevent that ("Hey! Not Riddleport! That's where I keep all my stuff!" ;) ).

But I digress. So...any sort of timeline given or hinted at?

^_^

Paul L. Ming


In the spirit of climactic scenes of action movies everywhere, whenever your party makes it to the last book, they're just barely in time to stop the drow if they hurry. If you think having a day to circle on the calendar will motivate your players, feel free to make one up.

In regards to them shrugging off a second Earthfall, it's worth pointing out that the first one landed well to the west of the what is left of Avistan, but the accompanying space debris and resulting dust cloud destroyed every civilization on the surface of the continent. As a result, the continent is a lot smaller now; a direct hit in the middle of it at Kyonin would be even more catastrophic. It's not like Kyonin is going to be destroyed but Riddleport will keep chugging along, business as usual. You need to make it clear that Earthfall is not a local event but one that will affect the entire Inner Sea.


New wtf moment.

So the elf gates were created before earth fall by ancient elves before the existence of the Drow right?

Why are there two such gates in the Darklands ( one leading to Celwynian so the PC's can enter and one leading to Kyonin so the PC's can exit)?

Why is the one that leads to Kyonin not guarded at either end ( to stop incursions or spies) - or used by either side to send through spies to spy in the other?

In fact the whole premise of this part of the AP is that the PC's are urged to take the unique opportunity to pass through the corrupted elf gate to go to the drow city when
1. It goes to another elf gate anyway - ie not so unique; &
2. In any event there's a gate from Kyonin to pretty near the city

Am I missing something that makes this make sense?


It's been a long time since I read Endless Night, but I'll take a stab at it.

Is it explicitly stated that the Darklands aiudara existed pre-Earthfall, or could the drow have spent the thousands of years since then building their own elfgates and attempting to attune them to existing elfgates on the surface? Remember, the one in Celwynvian used to lead to Kyonin; it's due to the drow that it now leads to the outskirts of Zirnikaynin.

Also, I believe the elfgates were disabled when the elves left Golarion, and they've reactivated the ones they now use one by one. Keeping in mind that the majority of the elven nation has no clue that drow even exist, what reason would they have to guard an auidara that is, as far as they know, turned "off?" As I recall, the Crying Leaf elves don't even know about the existence of the elfgate in Celwynvian; the source of the drow that are occupying the city is a mystery to them until the PCs discover it. One has to presume that, until the events of The Armageddon Echo, the elves have no idea that the drow possess elfgate technology. The Kyonin elves, in particular, both believe that the abandoned aiudara is nonfunctional and have no way of knowing that it's linked to a Darklands elfgate. Part of the downside of the Winter Council's secret war is that it's hard to mobilize your people against dangers you don't want to let them know exist.


Joana wrote:

It's been a long time since I read Endless Night, but I'll take a stab at it.

Is it explicitly stated that the Darklands aiudara existed pre-Earthfall, or could the drow have spent the thousands of years since then building their own elfgates and attempting to attune them to existing elfgates on the surface? Remember, the one in Celwynvian used to lead to Kyonin; it's due to the drow that it now leads to the outskirts of Zirnikaynin.

Also, I believe the elfgates were disabled when the elves left Golarion, and they've reactivated the ones they now use one by one. Keeping in mind that the majority of the elven nation has no clue that drow even exist, what reason would they have to guard an auidara that is, as far as they know, turned "off?" As I recall, the Crying Leaf elves don't even know about the existence of the elfgate in Celwynvian; the source of the drow that are occupying the city is a mystery to them until the PCs discover it. One has to presume that, until the events of The Armageddon Echo, the elves have no idea that the drow possess elfgate technology. The Kyonin elves, in particular, both believe that the abandoned aiudara is nonfunctional and have no way of knowing that it's linked to a Darklands elfgate. Part of the downside of the Winter Council's secret war is that it's hard to mobilize your people against dangers you don't want to let them know exist.

Ok, that helps. Thanks.

It just feels odd that the ancient elves were mucking around in the Darklands enough to build 2 gates in such relatively close proximity to each other.

I re-read the bit about how the Celwynian gate was directed - Ley lines path etc. I might go with the reprogramming of the Celwynian gate created a second portal that then connected the pre existing link. Or maybe just go with some other way back to the surface.


In regards to the "shit happens".

We just wrapped up the adventure path and it certainly was hard to get the players motivated to head into the Under... *ahem*... Darklands. Especially twice.

I was toying with a few ideas like having the Elf gate relocated to the thieves tunnels under Riddleport. One that Depora was working on or some such (or even something to do with the cyphergate being modified at it's base where the Drow were working). That was last year some time so it's a bit vague in my head. It feels like you almost need to redirect the AP back to Riddleport after Celwynvian so the players can touch down there again. I can't speak for others but my players latched onto that City with so much interest that it was a constant point of contention where the characters were pushing themselves to get back there to resume their normal lives. I get the urgency to saving the world but what's more fun that owning a casino?


My group is an all elf group, members of the Shin'Rakorath so Riddleport was "just a mission".

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Also, recall the elfgate from Celwynvian originally ran to Kyonin, and was subverted. So, the surface elves only recently re-discovered that elf-gate and where it goes.

In addition, we're talking here about the Drow - the city likely doesn't keep any sort of coordinated city guard. Instead, it will be up to each house to man a defence. It would be up to each individual house to decide where to put that defence - perhaps they would all prefer to keep their guards actually at the city, rather than at some low-risk outpost.


YogoZuno wrote:

Also, recall the elfgate from Celwynvian originally ran to Kyonin, and was subverted. So, the surface elves only recently re-discovered that elf-gate and where it goes.

In addition, we're talking here about the Drow - the city likely doesn't keep any sort of coordinated city guard. Instead, it will be up to each house to man a defence. It would be up to each individual house to decide where to put that defence - perhaps they would all prefer to keep their guards actually at the city, rather than at some low-risk outpost.

Yep I get all that. It's just that what the two elf gates located near to the drow city means is

1.Before the elves left golarion before earthfall The elves had explored the underground realms sufficiently, and with enough permanence, to build 2 of their special gates in this relatively small section of it/ or the drow have built elf gates but not really using them ( which doesn't seem to be the case)
2. The reprogrammed exit gate from Celwynvian must connect to some other gate same where ( or maybe to several other gates) before it was reprogrammed.
3. The gate to Kyonin is functional in that the drow can operate it

Point 1 seems odd as elves arent really deep earth explorers, and to the extent they are they are just visitors rather than establishing and building gates - or it means elves used to be much more widely spread over the world. Ie why aren't these elf gates everywhere on the surface if they are located 2 within 50 miles underground?

3 means why aren't the evil drow using this to wreak evil - or are drow more of a mind their own business kind of evil?

I don't have such an issue with point 3 it just seems contrary to my understanding of pre star fall elves that they would be building gates in the underdark.

When my players come across these underground gates they will be perplexed and it may seem a bit convenient and gamey.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The book seems to indicate the Darklands gates were existing, and not built by the drow. In character or not, canon-wise, the gates were built by pre-fall elves. Take a look at the rumours on p26. The discussion with Alicanviss also indicates the exit gate has been known of for some time by the Drow, and does purposely lead to Kyonin.

The entry gate must ahve had another destination originally, but the Celwynvian gate seems to have lead to Kyonin.

And given the reception the PCs get in Memory of Darkness, perhaps the Drow have decided not to use a watched gate to enter Kyonin. I also don't believe the Drow of Golarion have the interest in wiping out their surface kin that Drow of other settings do.

The gates seem convenient and gamey, and not recorporeal incarnation?? I have a party with 2 dwarves in it - dwarves in drow suits almost broke our reality suspenders...but the players rolled with it.


Maybe the aiudara weren't built by elves at all...maybe the elven wizard credited with creating them actually just repurposed an existing magical network built in antiquity by some unknown race?


Perhaps the characters just don't understand the magnitude. There is a story called 'The Magic Goes Away' where magic is dying and the characters seek to bring down the moon since it is a source of magic.

Before you go 'What idiots!' The characters know all about how things far away look smaller and think the moon isn't as big as it is. When they find out the truth, they freak and stop doing it.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This module has a terrible trope at it's heart. I call it the "infiltrate the evil city" trope. It has been used in another adventure path as well and it is just as useless in that one. At the risk of giving away spoilers it doesn't matter because you get discovered anyway. All the effort and clunky mechanics of the disguise are completely blown out an airlock because...plot.

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