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Which Character is the most powerful?


Advice


Campaign is Legacy of Fire: Current level is 14ish. All characters have around 350k in items some from wishes most tailor made or bought or traded for in Katapesh.

Human Oracle of Fire level 14, sword and shield with plenty of buff/remove spells, offensive and healing spells, and favored class bonus is for bonus spells. Highest stats 22str, 22cha
Oracle has +9init 37ac and 132hp +18/13 d10+20+2d6 holy w/power attack saves 12/13/16
Oracle plays as tank/mage shield other on ranger, buffs, cleanses debuffs on party, does most damage from range via spells unless its mooks then sword/shield. +4 holy keen bastard sword.

Elven Urban Ranger level 14 with favored enemies all evil outside, fire outsider, bow style and curve blade style. highest stats 22dex, 18int
Ranger has +6init 33ac and 150hp +29/24/19 2d6+9+d6 acid+d6 cold and ranger +4dam saves 16/19/12
Ranger plays full offense either melee or ranged, flys on a carpet +3 outsider bane curve blade, +3 longbow acid/cold

Half-elf /half-celestial Bard 7, Fighter 6, with double-weapon Tempest. highest stats 25str, 24dex, 20cha
Half-celestial has +7init 26ac 180hp +21/16/11 d10+10 icy burst "Tempest" saves 16/18/16
Celestial usually buffs themselves with mirror image or shield never buffs party, uses meteor hammer as "Tempest" flyby attacks. mostly melee.

Elf /Half-dragon (copper) Cleric 13. Highest stats 26str 24wis.
Half-dragon has +2init 31ac 170hp +19/19/19 clawx2 bite d8+9 saves 14/12/18
Cleric usually buffs/heals the party, goes into melee, has been wished large size for better damage has eldritch claws.


You'd kind of have to give us a little more, maybe magical weapon levels and play style.


SwnyNerdgasm wrote:
You'd kind of have to give us a little more, maybe magical weapon levels and play style.

added some more info

Dark Archive

At that level it can come down simply to who has the better initative. So If this was like deadlest warrior or something I would bet on the bard/fight first, ranger second, oracle third and cleric last(which pains me since it is one of my favorit classes, but they are not known for initative).


Nimon wrote:


At that level it can come down simply to who has the better initative. So If this was like deadlest warrior or something I would bet on the bard/fight first, ranger second, oracle third and cleric last(which pains me since it is one of my favorit classes, but they are not known for initative).

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, but I would like to add that if the fight starts out a good distance between the combatants the ranger might take down the fighter before he can get close, and then just blast through the healing of both the cleric and oracle


Looking for more input.

Dark Archive

Well, with more of the stats listed and equipment I must say that oracle looks pretty BA. But the ranger and bard still tie for first with thier flyby attacks and what not. Oracle close second, then cleric. I am not sure what else you want to be said here. Maybe I miss-understand what you mean by powerful. In their respectable jobs they all seem capable. Not sure why the bard never buffs the group though, is he a dervish dancer or something?


Nimon wrote:


Well, with more of the stats listed and equipment I must say that oracle looks pretty BA. But the ranger and bard still tie for first with thier flyby attacks and what not. Oracle close second, then cleric. I am not sure what else you want to be said here. Maybe I miss-understand what you mean by powerful. In their respectable jobs they all seem capable. Not sure why the bard never buffs the group though, is he a dervish dancer or something?

Arcane duelist bard, its a she and she is CG, selfish, only took bard for the spells and proficiencies so she can heal self, cast a few buffs, not sure if she knows that at level 7 its a move action to give everyone +2hit/dam but either way she wont perform ever...

Liberty's Edge

Hmmm....the cleric is the only full caster here -- what are his 7th-level spells?

Vision of Lamashtu would let him cake-walk an intra-party brawl (since he is familiar with everyone and easily has medical "samples", meaning everyone else is -15 to their Will saves).


GM_Pwning wrote:


Elven Urban Ranger level 14 with favored enemies all evil outside, fire outsider, bow style and curve blade style. highest stats 22dex, 18int
Ranger has +6init 33ac and 150hp +29/24/19 2d6+9+d6 acid+d6 cold and ranger +4dam saves 16/19/12
Ranger plays full offense either melee or ranged, flys on a carpet +3 outsider bane curve blade, +3 longbow acid/cold

Male Chaotic Good Elf

Ranger (Urban Ranger) 14
Stats:
Strength: 14/18 (+2/+4)
Dexterity: 20 (+5)
Constitution: 14 (+2)
Intelligence: 13 (+1)
Wisdom: 16/18 (+3/+4)
Charisma: 11 (0)

Skills:
Acrobatics: +19
Climb: +9'
Disable Device: +30
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): +8
Knowledge (Geography): +6
Knowledge (Local): +19
Perception: +24
Spellcraft: +15
Stealth: +26
Survival: +20
Swim: +8

HP+Init:
Hit Points: 142 HP
Hit Dice: 14d10+28
Initiative: +5

Attack Bonuses:
Attack Bonus: +14/+9/+4
(melee: +18/+13/+8)
(ranged: +15/+10/+5)

Saves:
Fortitude Save: +15
Reflex Save: +17
Will Save: +12

AC:
Armor Class: 31
(touch: 19)
(flat-footed: 25)

CMB: +18
CMD: 37
(flat-footed: 31)

Feats&Traits:
Armor Proficiency (Light), Armor Proficiency (Medium), Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim -4/+8, Dodge, Elven Weapon Proficiencies, Favored Defense: Outsiders (Evil) +2, Improved Critical: Curve blade, elven, Improved Critical: Longbow, Martial Weapon Proficiency - All, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shield Proficiency, Simple Weapon Proficiency - All, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Gnoll Killer, Indomitable Faith, Resilient

Special Abilities:
Darkvision (60 feet), Low-Light Vision, Evasion (Ex), Elven Immunities - Sleep, Damage Resistance, Fire (30), Elven Immunities, Push Through (Ex), Blend In (Ex), Camouflage (Ex), Elven Magic, Enemies: Humanoids (Gnoll) (+4 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Outsiders (Chaotic) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Enemies: Outsiders (Evil) (+4 bonus) (Ex), Favored Community (katapesh) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Favored Community (kelmarane) (+4 bonus) (Ex), Hunting Companions (4 rounds) (Ex), Quarry, Swift Tracker (Ex), Terrains: Plane of Fire, Track +7, Trapfinding +7, Wild Empathy +14 (Ex)

Attacks:
+4 Dagger (+23/+18/+13, 1d4+16 damage, crit 19-20/x2)
Zenzirad (+20/+15/+10, 2d8+7 damage, crit 15-20/x2)
+3 Frost, Shock Longbow (+21/+16/+11, 1d8+13 damage, crit 19-20/x3)

Gear:
Magic Items: +1 Flaming Arrows (x35), +3 Bane Arrows (x7), +3 Frost, Shock Longbow, +3 Mithral Breastplate, +4 Dagger, Amulet of Natural Armor +3, Bag of Holding II (8 @ 111 lbs), Bag of Tricks, Tan, Belt of Giant Strength, +4, Bracers of Archery, Greater, Carpet of Flying II, Cloak of Resistance, +2, Efficient Quiver (506 @ 75.9 lbs), Glove of Storing, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Ring of Fire Resistance, Greater, Ring of Protection, +3, Scroll: Invisibility, Greater (CL 12), Slippers of Spider Climbing, Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone), Tome of Clear Thought, +1, Wand of Cure Serious Wounds (CL 15), Wand of Gravity Bow (CL 10), Zenzirad

Other Gear: 3 diamonds , Arrow, Bleeding (x10), Arrows (x454), dragon hide, hookah, rug, Thieves' tools, masterwork (x2)

Spells:
Abundant Ammunition (1), Blessing of the Salamander (x2) (4), Cat's Grace (x2) (2), Instant Enemy (x2) (3), Protection from Energy (2), Resist Energy (x4) (1)


Bard(Arcane Duelist)/Fighter has, pulled directly from Herolab, since the OP decided to go off of assumptions.

* Strength: 22/24 (+6/+7)
* Dexterity: 20 (+5)
* Constitution: 24/26 (+7/+8)
* Intelligence: 16/18 (+3/+4)
* Wisdom: 16/18 (+3/+4)
* Charisma: 20/22 (+5/+6)

195hp
+7 Initiative

AC:26; 29 w/combat expertise, 30 w/o reach from Meteor Hammer

* +1 Wounding Greataxe (+19/+14/+9, 1d12+11 damage, crit 20/x3)
* +2 Bane, Icy Burst Meteor Hammer (+18/+13/+8, 2d6+9/2d6+9 damage, crit 20/x2) <=== as Tempest, the weapon has a permanent Lead Blades via Wish spell on both ends.
* +1 Longbow, Composite (Str +4) (+17/+12/+7, 1d8+5 damage, crit 20/x3)

Feats:

Combat Casting
Combat Expertise +/-3
Disruptive
Double Slice
Flyby Attack
Fury’s Fall
Greater Trip
Hover
Improved Trip
Intimidating Prowess
Leadership (Base Score 19)
Two-weapon Fighting
Death from Above
Second Chance


Human Oracle (Fire) 14
HP 132
AC 37/19T/33FF
STR 18/22
DEX 16
CON 14
WIS 14
CHA 18/22

FORT 11
REFLEX 12
WILL 16

INIT +9
SPEED 40

BAB +11/+6

MAIN ATTACK WITH SHIELD EQUIPPED
+18/13 1D10 +20 +4 HOLY KEEN BASTARD SWORD POWER ATTACK.

FEATS
ACROBATIC STEPS, ARMOR LIGHT, ARMOR MEDIUM, BLADE OF MERCY, DODGE, ELEMENTAL SPELL COLD, EXOTIC WEAPON PROFICIENCY BASTARD SWORD, GREATER EVOCATION FOCUS, IMPROVED INITIATIVE, INTENSIFIED SPELL, NIMBLE MOVES, POWER ATTACK -3+6, REACTIONARY, SHIELD PROFICIENCY, WEAPONS ALL SIMPLE, EVOCATION FOCUS.

SPECIALS, BLADE OF MERCY, BLINDSENSE 30, CLOUDED VISION, DR FIRE 20, DARKVISION 60, FIRE BREATH 15' CONE, WINGS OF FIRE, CINDER DANCE +10SPEED.

SPELLS
0 9/...
1 5/8
2 7/8
3 6/7
4 6/7
5 5/7
6 3/6
7 1/3

GEAR
+3 DARKWOOD HEAVY WOODEN SHIELD, +3 MITHRAL CHAINMAIL, +4 HOLY KEEN BASTARD SWORD, AMULET OF NATURAL ARMOR +4, BELT GIANT STR +4, CLOAK OF RESISTANCE +4, HEADBAND OF CHA +4, METAMAGIC ROD QUICKEN LESSER, RING OF PROTECTION +5, STONE OF GOOD LUCK.

MOST USED SKILLS WITH ACTUAL RANKS
ACRO +10
CLIMB +10
DIPLOMACY +20
FLY +10
HEAL +15
HISTORY +15
PLANES +18
RELIGION +15
PERCEPTION +17
SENSE MOTIVE +10
SPELLCRAFT +18

Shadow Lodge

It seems to me that really, no matter what the level it's about how it's played. You pull off something spectacular or brilliant and you're a badass, you do something stupid or fail a roll or whatever and suddenly you're down for the count, pushing up daisies, worm food.

It really is like playing poker or actually fighting. Or chess, really. You try moves, feints, hits, magic, etc etc etc and sometimes you bluff, sometimes you strike but it's all like water and someone else is playing the same game and going through their motions of what they got in their little bag of tricks...

but this is only my opinion

Grand Lodge

Hai Yu wrote:

It really is like playing poker or actually fighting. Or chess, really. You try moves, feints, hits, magic, etc etc etc and sometimes you bluff, sometimes you strike but it's all like water and someone else is playing the same game and going through their motions of what they got in their little bag of tricks...

but this is only my opinion

As a former chess player, I'm offended at it's inclusion in this, there is nothing random about chess, whereas, in this game, a fight can end instantly with a confirmed critical.

Shadow Lodge

Kais86 wrote:
As a former chess player, I'm offended at it's inclusion in this, there is nothing random about chess, whereas, in this game, a fight can end instantly with a confirmed critical.

ahhh... but see, if you are a good player, you make plans and usually try to take out the most random of chances... but a bad player will move pieces around the board trying to 'smash' the opponents king into a checkmate...

but even a good player makes mistakes

and even a good player meets someone better

but I am sorry if I offended you, just trying to draw points of being good players and bad players really changes what happens in the end.

Even Bruce Lee could slip on a piece of ice and fall in a fight (not likely but can still happen)

Liberty's Edge

Hai Yu wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
As a former chess player, I'm offended at it's inclusion in this, there is nothing random about chess, whereas, in this game, a fight can end instantly with a confirmed critical.
ahhh... but see, if you are a good player, you make plans and usually try to take out the most random of chances...

Are you serious?

Shadow Lodge

Mike Schneider wrote:
Hai Yu wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
As a former chess player, I'm offended at it's inclusion in this, there is nothing random about chess, whereas, in this game, a fight can end instantly with a confirmed critical.
ahhh... but see, if you are a good player, you make plans and usually try to take out the most random of chances...
Are you serious?

actually yes

do you ALWAYS know what your opponent is going to do? Sure there is a probability they will do certain moves but they still have things they can do, and if they do something random, then you adapt, change your plan, continue the game with said plan, they may do another random move or not, and then you play to the end... but also, in the Art of War it is said that "If you know your enemy and you know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself you will succumb in every battle."

So, my point with this was just saying that a player with knowledge of how his character plays at its strongest and knows what he is up against is going to play out as the most powerful, bar rolling a NAT 1, even with CRITs there are ways to buff and play and make sure that you still have more HP in the end. So, make plans and play your opponents and change your plans when you need to which seems very much like a game of chess to me... if it is not, then maybe I am still that much of a novice at chess and should never play against either of you guys in chess. Maybe we could play other games instead? Also, still not trying to ruffle any feathers, it just seems to be very similar in my mind...

and then another thought on this:

if you want to play with the random and what can happen with the dice rolls as the main factor for being the most powerful, then the way to figure out the MPP is to just have each player roll 1 d20. Highest score wins. Sure you can make it an INIT check or anything else but it doesn't matter because you are rolling a dice and no matter what you plan to do ultimately then, it's up to what lands on top of that little multi-sided object of chance...

is my opinion right? maybe yes, maybe no... can I be convinced otherwise, YES! Prove me wrong and I'll say you are right! :-) It's still just an opinion

Grand Lodge

Hai Yu wrote:
Mike Schneider wrote:
Hai Yu wrote:
Kais86 wrote:
As a former chess player, I'm offended at it's inclusion in this, there is nothing random about chess, whereas, in this game, a fight can end instantly with a confirmed critical.
ahhh... but see, if you are a good player, you make plans and usually try to take out the most random of chances...
Are you serious?

actually yes

do you ALWAYS know what your opponent is going to do?

Fundamentally speaking? Yes, you do, especially if you are really good. Top-tier chess players know every move you can make, before you do, often being able to figure out enough about their opponent to play the game for the opponent. There aren't many options in chess, there's only a few moves someone can make at any given time.

Now, I'm not that good, but I do know what my opponent can do, what they are likely to do, and what I can do in response.

Shadow Lodge

Kais86 wrote:

Fundamentally speaking? Yes, you do, especially if you are really good. Top-tier chess players know every move you can make, before you do, often being able to figure out enough about their opponent to play the game for the opponent. There aren't many options in chess, there's only a few moves someone can make at any given time.

Now, I'm not that good, but I do know what my opponent can do, what they are likely to do, and what I can do in response.

Alright, I totally get that. It was even in my thoughts as I wrote what I wrote but I wasn't thinking of these characters as Top-Tier necessarily... but they really should be pretty close I guess. Also, they know each other so they would probably know each others weaknesses and starting fight go-to moves... so, it still seems kind of similar to me but maybe it would be better to put the chess at a 4 person chess game played on a cross of 5 boards... makes it just a bit harder but most of the rules are still the same...

but also, what seems to be the key point that everyone (including me) has pretty much been doing is saying 'ok, these guys have been a team for a bit and then they fight, who wins'

what if it's not these guys fighting each other but they are going to work together to fight a main bad guy?

or in the game that I am imagining in my head, the GM wants to separate the most powerful player from the group at some point for an epic battle by themselves while the rest of the group has to try to find and maybe save their lost companion...?

I mean, there are so many different ways to see "most powerful" and without a clear picture of what the author of the thread really wanted to pull from this group of folks who suddenly started talking chess on their time we just might not even be getting close to answering what this person wants...


I wanted to know which character just off of stats, gear, and abilities is the most solid, effective, and powerful character. We all know which player is the chess master.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Tales Subscriber
GM_Pwning wrote:
I wanted to know which character just off of stats, gear, and abilities is the most solid, effective, and powerful character. We all know which player is the chess master.

I don't think it's possible to accurately answer this question. All 4 of the characters are drastically different and are very effective based on what they're built to do, it would be like comparing Apples to Oranges.

Scarab Sages

GM_Pwning wrote:

Campaign is Legacy of Fire: Current level is 14ish. All characters have around 350k in items some from wishes most tailor made or bought or traded for in Katapesh.

Human Oracle of Fire level 14, sword and shield with plenty of buff/remove spells, offensive and healing spells, and favored class bonus is for bonus spells. Highest stats 22str, 22cha
Oracle has +9init 37ac and 132hp +18/13 d10+20+2d6 holy w/power attack saves 12/13/16
Oracle plays as tank/mage shield other on ranger, buffs, cleanses debuffs on party, does most damage from range via spells unless its mooks then sword/shield. +4 holy keen bastard sword.

Elven Urban Ranger level 14 with favored enemies all evil outside, fire outsider, bow style and curve blade style. highest stats 22dex, 18int
Ranger has +6init 33ac and 150hp +29/24/19 2d6+9+d6 acid+d6 cold and ranger +4dam saves 16/19/12
Ranger plays full offense either melee or ranged, flys on a carpet +3 outsider bane curve blade, +3 longbow acid/cold

Half-elf /half-celestial Bard 7, Fighter 6, with double-weapon Tempest. highest stats 25str, 24dex, 20cha
Half-celestial has +7init 26ac 180hp +21/16/11 d10+10 icy burst "Tempest" saves 16/18/16
Celestial usually buffs themselves with mirror image or shield never buffs party, uses meteor hammer as "Tempest" flyby attacks. mostly melee.

Elf /Half-dragon (copper) Cleric 13. Highest stats 26str 24wis.
Half-dragon has +2init 31ac 170hp +19/19/19 clawx2 bite d8+9 saves 14/12/18
Cleric usually buffs/heals the party, goes into melee, has been wished large size for better damage has eldritch claws.

The most powerful one is whichever I happen to be playing. Power is not just the size of your stat-block, it's how you use it.

Scarab Sages

Kais86 wrote:
Hai Yu wrote:


do you ALWAYS know what your opponent is going to do?

Fundamentally speaking? Yes, you do, especially if you are really good. Top-tier chess players know every move you can make, before you do, often being able to figure out enough about their opponent to play the game for the opponent. There aren't many options in chess, there's only a few moves someone can make at any given time.

Now, I'm not that good, but I do know what my opponent can do, what they are likely to do, and what I can do in response.

While Pathfinder can draw an excellent analogy to chess, a better analogy would be to tabletop wargaming. (the primary differences being those of scale and options available).

A good commander (or chess player) can answer all of those questions and dictate the flow of battle to his opponent.

Chess is warfare.


I get harassed when my characters are awesome beyond their means, and players complain when my mobs, as a GM, use tactics instead of brute force, unless of course the mob is too dumb. My character is the Oracle above. Legacy of Fire campaign. Maybe I've been playing d&d too long lol.

Grand Lodge

GM_Pwning wrote:
I get harassed when my characters are awesome beyond their means, and players complain when my mobs, as a GM, use tactics instead of brute force, unless of course the mob is too dumb. My character is the Oracle above. Legacy of Fire campaign. Maybe I've been playing d&d too long lol.

Ach! I got something like this when I was playing a half-celestial Aasimar in one game. The other players kept complaining and complaining, so the GM let me replace the Half-celestial part, with more levels, and I came out even more powerful than before, the only thing I was missing was some energy resistance, and spell resistance, but I had equal saves, a higher BAB, more attacks, etc. everything else I duplicated, to a degree, with magic items.

What really boggles my mind is that we had been getting our butts kicked the entire time, we were told at the beginning "build powerful characters, I don't care how, as long as it's within the rules", and I built the character knowing that it was pretty powerful.


When the gm controls the flow of character creation, experience, money, and magic items, the gm has the power to adjust the game as needed to keep up the challenges.

Don't hate the player, hate the game!

Grand Lodge

GM_Pwning wrote:

When the gm controls the flow of character creation, experience, money, and magic items, the gm has the power to adjust the game as needed to keep up the challenges.

Don't hate the player, hate the game!

It was the players that were complaining.


Kais86 wrote:
GM_Pwning wrote:

When the gm controls the flow of character creation, experience, money, and magic items, the gm has the power to adjust the game as needed to keep up the challenges.

Don't hate the player, hate the game!

It was the players that were complaining.

I have no problem with the game, bizarre as it can get. It's the players and GM who should suck my empowered, maximized, widened, heightened, extended, wish! :)

Wow. This game is more male than I thought!

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