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Me wants a Megadungeon AP.
I would run it gleefully to all my WoD players who think D&D is nothing but dungeon crawls! :)
I'm confused... You would prove that D&D is not just dungeon crawling by running a dungeon crawl?
I see a subtle flaw in your plan...
The plan is perfect. It's a trap [(c) Admiral Ackbar] which will show them just how awesome dungeon crawlin' is! I just need a sneaky adventure hook :)
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Ah! The old bait and switch. Get them to play a gamestyle they think they hate and then make it awesome.
Truly you are a king amongst carnivorous extradimensional spaces. I salute you.
I've had some great success with coaxing firmly "D&D sucks" players into Pathfinder sessions with them quickly realizing that they do enjoy it more than they would admit.
Paizo's supreme adventures help greatly with that, as they break the usual mold of "obvious storyline, bland NPCs, 100% combat" that plagued many D&D adventures.
The only problem is the intimidating and arcanely complicated Core Rulebook, I await the Beginner's Box with great anticipation, because it will help my nefarious plan of converting the Earth's population of devout PF players MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *ahem* where are my meds?
*Flushes Gorbacz's meds down the toilet, walking away whistling innocently*
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You know (Ray), people did say that a lot of folks won't like a sandbox open-ended AP without a strong railroad storyline...Wow!
That is a REALLY good point.
Yep. I myself was totally surprised by the success of Kingmaker. I held Paizo in very high regard for tight storyline of AoW, RotRL and CotCT, and I was afraid that the "sandbox hexcrawl" is a thing of past, buried somewhere in the late 80s.
I was completely wrong, it appears that Kingmaker was a major hit and made quite a splash. So perhaps the idea of megadungeon AP isn't that much out of whack? I'm curious how did "Expeditions to..." series from WotC fare, especially given that they were written by Paizo staff and usual Paizo freelancers...
On a micro-level, good GMing involves changing things up so they don't get boring.
On a macro-level, APs should be changed up so that there's something for everyone. Some railroad, some sandbox. Some dungeon, some wilderness, some nautical, some planar, some whatever.
As long as each AP is new and different, there's not really a "wrong" AP theme.
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I think the following kind of scenario could result in a mega-dungeon AP.
You awake somewhere unfamiliar. The AP would largely being about you and your party trying to figure out what happened, why you were brought there, and trying to get home.
The first book (level 1-4) is your party exploring your strange new surroundings trying to establish where you are and what is going on. This could be an escape from slavery situation, or even being part of some experiment (think Balder’s Gate II) or even a gladiatorial thing. I can see a lot of interesting ways this could go, but the key is you were brought somewhere unfamiliar that is relatively safe (compared to the surrounding area which we will get to in later levels) and that you were brought there by some larger power that will be the backbone of the AP.
Book 2 (4-7) you are a little more established and maybe you can leave the immediate area you started in (escape, win freedom, just be strong enough to begin exploring) and you begin to try to find out more about whatever force that brought you here. You are still pre-teleport and plane shift, so no real issues keeping you in the dungeon at this point, and tons of ways you could go unfolding the “plot” that brought you here.
Book 3 (7-10) is where it starts getting trickier, as Teleport and similar spells would come into play. But I can see two ways to deal with this. One, the very powerful force that brought you here has the entire dungeon under spells that prevent Teleport or Plane shift, or possibly there is a big surprise reveal that you aren’t on Golarion, but on one of the other planets or even on a giant demi-plane.
Book 4 (10-13) You realize now you can’t simply walk out of Mordor…err…the dungeon, and that you learn over the course of this book that you will have to obtain or disrupt (Maguffin) in order to be able to to defeat (BBEG Macguffin) who brought you here and is keeping you trapped.
Book 5 (13-15) You use this book to obtain/disrupt said Macguffin setting you for…
Book 6 (15+) Where you confront BBEG so that you are able to return home…
I don’t like the concept of the ever deeper dungeon you keep pushing farther into, as going back to civilization all the time kind of kills what makes the mega-dungeon concept cool to me. I could also see this working as a series of portals between planets, which would be a separate and equally awesome AP concept…but that isn’t so much mega dungeon.
But seriously, a series of portals between planets, trying to make your way home…you know you want to play a Quantum Leap AP…
I think the following kind of scenario could result in a mega-dungeon AP.
You awake somewhere unfamiliar. The AP would largely being about you and your party trying to figure out what happened, why you were brought there, and trying to get home.
The first book (level 1-4) is your party exploring your strange new surroundings trying to establish where you are and what is going on. This could be an escape from slavery situation, or even being part of some experiment (think Balder’s Gate II) or even a gladiatorial thing.
Book 2 (4-7) you are a little more established and maybe you can leave the immediate area you started in (escape, win freedom, just be strong enough to begin exploring) and you begin to try to find out more about whatever force that brought you here.
Book 3 (7-10) is where it starts getting trickier, as Teleport and similar spells would come into play.
Book 4 (10-13) You realize now you can’t simply walk out of Mordor…err…the dungeon,
Book 5 (13-15) You use this book to obtain/disrupt said Macguffin setting you for…
Book 6 (15+) Where you confront BBEG so that you are able to return home…
Great you have the computer game Portal as an RPG.
I would like to see Dragon Mountain remade for Pathfinder and A mega Dungeon does not sound all that bad provided it is handled correctly.
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Great you have the computer game Portal as an RPG.I think the following kind of scenario could result in a mega-dungeon AP.
You awake somewhere unfamiliar. The AP would largely being about you and your party trying to figure out what happened, why you were brought there, and trying to get home.
The first book (level 1-4) is your party exploring your strange new surroundings trying to establish where you are and what is going on. This could be an escape from slavery situation, or even being part of some experiment (think Balder’s Gate II) or even a gladiatorial thing.
Book 2 (4-7) you are a little more established and maybe you can leave the immediate area you started in (escape, win freedom, just be strong enough to begin exploring) and you begin to try to find out more about whatever force that brought you here.
Book 3 (7-10) is where it starts getting trickier, as Teleport and similar spells would come into play.
Book 4 (10-13) You realize now you can’t simply walk out of Mordor…err…the dungeon,
Book 5 (13-15) You use this book to obtain/disrupt said Macguffin setting you for…
Book 6 (15+) Where you confront BBEG so that you are able to return home…
And? Carrion crown is every horror trope ever written. You could also say I am ripping off a ton of other games from Doom to Pac Man and every rescue game rips off mario brothers.
The reason portal is built that way is to create a cotained dungeon with escalating difficulty.
So yeah, it is like portal like Harry Poter is like Star Wars
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you need an NPC in a scene for it to be a roleplaying encounter, then I'd suggest that you really don't know what roleplaying is and aren't doing anywhere near as much of it as you think. You're missing more than half the game. If a scene only involving PCs is "search, kill, disarm, loot, lather, rise, repeat," and not a roleplaying encounter, then that's not the fault of the type of adventure. That's just your failure as a group to actually, you know, roleplay.
Ouch, Ed. Does everything need to be a flamewar?
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A mega dungeon AP could be tough to pull off but not impossible. What I'd like to see:
- A gazetteer of the city nearest the dungeon, Cauldron was an excellent example of a city with a dangerous dungeon complex beneath it.
- A competitive aspect: advice on rival adventuring parties raiding the dungeon and claiming the ph4t loot if the PCs are taking too long. or on running multiple parties through the dungeon.
- First contact and warned descriptions of monster tactics (a megadungeon AP would be ideal for newer GMs to run) by wiring such advice into the text you create a living dungeon.
- a living dungeon, the megadungeon might have sentient levels.
- a reason to enter the dungeon besides loot (lost knowledge, reclamation of dwarven cities, ancient evils to stop: DRAGON)
- Dragon. A megadungeon and a dragon would be super iconic. :)
If you're talking about that horrible movie about the spelunking girls and the really bad ending...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd avoid. But yes, using that movie as an example, if you have a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters, then that would be a boring adventure. (Much like the movie).I think you're kind of missing the point, but you're right - if the players create a bunch of boring and stupid characters, then the adventure will be boring. And that's true regardless of what kind of adventure it is, how good the GM is, etc. Boring, stupid players lead to boring, stupid games.
But a megadungeon needs to last longer than a 90 minute movie (even if it does feel like 4 hours...yes, I REALLY hated that movie...I sw it for free andI want my money back) so you need something more than dungeon crawl. I don't mind a single big scenario, but just make sure its more than hack and slash. Gimme some good roleplaying encoutners and lots of them.
It's OK for your players to interact with each other of course, but they and I enjoy encounters where they get to interact with other NPCs and do stuff besides "search, kill, disarm, loot, lather, rise, repeat".
Yep. You completely missed the point. 100% failure to comprehend. One more time: Every single moment of the game where there are two players playing is an opportunity for lots of good roleplaying encounters.
If you need an NPC in a scene for it to be a roleplaying encounter, then I'd suggest that you really don't know what roleplaying is and aren't doing anywhere near as much of it as you think. You're missing more than half the game. If a scene only involving PCs is "search, kill, disarm, loot, lather, rise, repeat," and not a roleplaying encounter, then that's not the fault of the type of adventure. That's just your failure as a group to actually, you know, roleplay.
1) Don't start a flame war to insult my players. I think they are good roleplayers and they can interact with each other. But it is often more interesting when they have something else to interact with as well, besides just killing it.
2) I didn't miss the point. I understand that you seem to imply that players should always be able to roleplay without the need for NPCs to interact with. To oversimplify that, then why bother with a GM at all? It's been my experience that players and GMs seem to like having interesting NPCs and non-combat encounters to interact with. I have not seen that in any of the Megadungeons I've seen in the past...they seemed to emphasize Kill-Loot-Levelup/Dungeon Crawl adventures. (Now,that being said, I haven't seen Slumbering Tsar, but I also have no interest in buying a Megadungeon so it holds little interest for me right now...it may encompass all of the things that make for a good RPG) Yes, there is always opportunity for roleplaying in every encounter. But it's nice if there is something already there for them to roleplay with instead of having to invent ways to roleplay with badly written dungeon crawls.
3) I guess I need to see what people see as a "Megadungeon". What I've seen in the past seems to focus on long dungeon crawls and constant battles against groups of themed enemies. Mostly underground or in a mountain. Not much in terms of story.
I do trust that Paizo will do something better than other "megadungeons" I've seen in the past. But I'm not too excited about it.
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1) Don't start a flame war to insult my players. I think they are good roleplayers and they can interact with each other. But it is often more interesting when they have something else to interact with as well, besides just killing it.
If anyone is trying to start a flamewar, it's you.
1) I haven't insulted your players. At all. All I've done is agree with you that if you have "a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters" (i.e. boring and stupid) that you'll have a boring adventure. How am I insulting your players by agreeing with you?
2) You're the one who came into this thread and more or less called anyone who runs dungeon-based adventures a bad role-player. You even used "dungeon crawl" as a synonym for "Kill-Loot-Levelup."
Did it just not occur to you that some of us actually enjoy role-playing while running dungeon crawls? That some of us might be offended by the way you casually assume that groups that like dungeon crawls are automatically mindless hack'n'slashers? (Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying mindless hack'n'slash gaming.)
Just because you don't know how to run a dungeon adventure so that it's more than "Kill-Loot-Levelup" doesn't mean that no one else does. If you're not up to the task, that's your failure as a GM, not a failure of the type of adventure. Only a bad craftsman blames his tools when his own lack of skill is at fault.
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My only problem with a megadungeon AP is that, if they used the current AP format, I dunno if 6 issues would really make it a MEGA-dungeon. Certainly large, yes, but to me a mega-dungeon has always been a mminimum of 1 levels plus a number of sublevels. And these levels should, in general, be fairly large...larger than most dungeons we've seen in Pathfinder to date.
I dunno, I just think that for a good, proper treatment, a megadungeon would need a nice thick hardcover (or two) or an expanded AP of maybe 9 issues. But maybe I just have an overly ambitious definition for megadungeon.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If anyone is trying to start a flamewar, it's you.
No, he's not.
1) I haven't insulted your players.
Yes, you did. See also, your comments below.
At all.
See above. And below.
All I've done is agree with you that if you have "a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters" (i.e. boring and stupid) that you'll have a boring adventure. How am I insulting your players by agreeing with you?
You agreed with him that if his players are a*%%&@@s, his campaign will suck? Did he say that?
What would you have said if you were disagreeing with him?
2) You're the one who came into this thread and more or less called anyone who runs dungeon-based adventures a bad role-player. You even used "dungeon crawl" as a synonym for "Kill-Loot-Levelup."
Oh...wait...now I get it. He said something, and then you made up something, and attributed that to him, like the above quote, and then got angry about it. Okay, that makes a lot more sense.
Did it just not occur to you that some of us actually enjoy role-playing while running dungeon crawls?
I think it's safe to say he didn't. No one in their right mind would ever make that assumption. I think. I'm really having a hard time following the thrust of the post other than you are Very Angry. And then you made some stuff up.
That some of us might be offended by the way you casually assume that groups that like dungeon crawls are automatically mindless hack'n'slashers?
You made that part up too...
I'm not sure if he can be held responsible for things he didn't say which caused a disproportionate reaction in you. Not only did he not say them, but there's only so much that can be done to shield a fragile ego from damage.
(Not that there's anything wrong with enjoying mindless hack'n'slash gaming.)
Did he say this, or did you say this, or did you say that he said this?
Is there a program I can get to follow this post?
Just because you don't know how to run a dungeon adventure so that it's more than "Kill-Loot-Levelup" doesn't mean that no one else does.
Ah! Here's a direct insult. Okay, this one I get. He's dumb because he said stuff he didn't say and you're right to be angry about it. I completely agree.
If you're not up to the task, that's your failure as a GM, not a failure of the type of adventure.
Still angry. Still insulting. Still non-sequitor.
Only a bad craftsman blames his tools when his own lack of skill is at fault.
One last dig as we reach the end.
Well played. Not many posts combine anger, fabrication, and insults so readily. Some people settle for 2 out of 3, and to see someone go for the trifecta warms the cavity which once contained my heart.
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If you're talking about that horrible movie about the spelunking girls and the really bad ending...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd avoid. But yes, using that movie as an example, if you have a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters, then that would be a boring adventure. (Much like the movie).
Please note that I am directly quoting gigglestick, not Gailbraithe. While he's talking about the characters in the movie, there seems to be a clear indication that he would expect no better from his player's PCs. Perhaps he simply thinks that if he say "megadungeon" that's all the effort that his players would put int their characters, I dunno. But he was the one who implied the characters would be "cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters", not Gailbraithe.
EDIT: And he's right, an adventure with such characters will suck, whether it's a megadungeon, a more typical Paizo AP, or a one-shot.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you're talking about that horrible movie about the spelunking girls and the really bad ending...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd avoid. But yes, using that movie as an example, if you have a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters, then that would be a boring adventure. (Much like the movie).Please note that I am directly quoting gigglestick, not Gailbraithe. While he's talking about the characters in the movie, there seems to be a clear indication that he would expect no better from his player's PCs. Perhaps he simply thinks that if he say "megadungeon" that's all the effort that his players would put int their characters, I dunno. But he was the one who implied the characters would be "cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters", not Gailbraithe.
EDIT: And he's right, an adventure with such characters will suck, whether it's a megadungeon, a more typical Paizo AP, or a one-shot.
Okay. If everyone's agreeing, why are things getting so Very Angry? I couldn't be bothered to read the entire exchange - I'm functionally illiterate as you may recall...
Edit: Or am I literally illiterate? It's been a long day.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm functionally illiterate as you may recall...Remind me never to hire you as my lawyer...
I thought it was well known that I'm an official Internet Badass. My services are best used in a trial by combat. My law degree, which, if you must know, does have a word search on the back, enables me to practice in all 63 states, but I'm much more effective as a killing machine.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I dunno, I just think that for a good, proper treatment, a megadungeon would need a nice thick hardcover (or two) or an expanded AP of maybe 9 issues. But maybe I just have an overly ambitious definition for megadungeon.
I know it's a bad idea to mess with success, particularly given that the first few issues of an AP are likely the best selling ones, but I'd love to see Paizo mix up their AP schedule at some point. A 9 part Epic 20 Level Mega Dungeon followed by a 3 part Mini-AP would be cool.
Or, better yet, a 6 part full AP and two mini-APs. My campaigns tend to go fallow around volume 3 anyway, and it'd be neat to have a short campaign with some closure at the end of that volume.
There's probably a bunch of logistical problems with this approach as well (I imagine that building the shell of the AP requires a lot of work, and this would increase the number of shells that need to be built), but I hold out hope.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm pretty sure he didn't pass the bar...i hear he stopped and had a few drinks.hey he did pass the BAR... of course I think he did the Limbo. But that is just a guess.I'm functionally illiterate as you may recall...Remind me never to hire you as my lawyer...
I'd go down that threadjack with you, but last time I did, we ended up with a lot of dead bodies and deleted posts. Let's just say that the bar was in Limbo, and I walked in with a priest, a Slaad, and a 12" pianist and leave it at that.
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Along those same lines, I'd love to see an "irregulars" line. Basically, a line that has no set schedule, format, or topic, and maybe not even necessarily Golarion-related. Maybe the first release is a 320 pg Norse mythology sourcebook hardcover. Or a 64 pg paperback soucebook for running a modern game using the PFRPG system. Or a 480 page megadungeon campaign in Kaer Maga.
If you're talking about that horrible movie about the spelunking girls and the really bad ending...that's exactly the kind of thing I'd avoid. But yes, using that movie as an example, if you have a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters, then that would be a boring adventure. (Much like the movie).Please note that I am directly quoting gigglestick, not Gailbraithe. While he's talking about the characters in the movie, there seems to be a clear indication that he would expect no better from his player's PCs. Perhaps he simply thinks that if he say "megadungeon" that's all the effort that his players would put int their characters, I dunno. But he was the one who implied the characters would be "cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters", not Gailbraithe.
EDIT: And he's right, an adventure with such characters will suck, whether it's a megadungeon, a more typical Paizo AP, or a one-shot.
Which is why I asked for what other people saw as megadungeon. To me, every megadungeon I've seen has been a Diablo-style kill/loot fest with very few, if any, roleplaying encounters written into the advanture. While I, or any GM, can add RP encounters to any adventure, I'd like something that comes with some there...
I don't think that people who play Megadungeon/Dungeon Crawl adventures cannot roleplay. But those sorts of scenarios have not encouraged roleplay.
As for characters from that movie, I certainly hope any players I gamed with would have characters that were more interesting than those from Descent. I expect that players would not simply turn off their brians at a Megadungeon. But if all the adventure was turned out to be a big dungeon crawl, they wouldn't stop roleplaying...they'd just leave the scenario and find adventure somewhere else.
So, to ask again, to me, I hear Megadungeon and I think endless string of monster or trap filled rooms with a simple theme, often designed to wear the heroes down through attrition. So, what Do you mean when you say Megadungeon?
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No, he's not.
If anyone is trying to start a flamewar, it's you.
Says the guys fanning the flames.
You agreed with him that if his players are a~&~**&s, his campaign will suck? Did he say that?
No, I agreed with him about Descent. He thought it was boring because the characters were boring and stupid (he said "a group of cookie-cutter, uninteresting, I-can't-wait-until-they-all-die characters," I summarized as "boring and stupid"), and I was agreeing with him that if the characters are boring and stupid then the adventure will be boring and stupid.
If Descent was an RPG campaign, then the main characters (the women who descend into the cave) are the player characters. If he thought those particular characters were boring and stupid and thus the movie was boring, then he's saying that it's boring and stupid characters that make an adventure boring and stupid.
That's not an insult to his players at all. I meaqn, yeah, if his players make stupid and boring characters they'll have stupid and boring adventures - but that's not an insult, that's just a fact. If my players make boring and stupid characters, the same thing will happen.
Oh...wait...now I get it. He said something, and then you made up something, and attributed that to him, like the above quote, and then got angry about it. Okay, that makes a lot more sense.
Yeah, I made up the following quotes:
"I don't mind a Megadungeon as long as there is a lot...and I mean a LOT of roleplay element. If wanted a long dungeoncrawl, thats what videogames are for."
This was the first thing he said that I responded to. I thought it was bit insulting that he equated dungeon crawls with no role-playing/video games.
So I brought up the example of The Descent, because a lot of the story is driven by the interactions between the main characters, and the cave system (which is very dungeony, what with the uncommunicative Crawlers) is just a backdrop against which the story develops between the main characters (i.e. the PCs), with the Crawlers just being a plot twist that makes the tensions between the main characters (again, the PCs) more stark and raises the stakes.
So, gigglestick responds by slamming the movie -- which is missing the point entirely, because whether the Descent is any good or not has nothing to do with its function as an example of a character driven story that requires no "NPCs" with which to talk. But it is relevant that he dismisses the movie because of it's boring and stupid characters, because that illustrates my broader point that if a dungeon crawl isn't a role-playing experience, it's not because of the nature of the dungeon crawl, it's because of how you're playing the game.
Then after slamming The Descent (as if it were relevant and not missing the point), he goes on to say this:
"...you need something more than dungeon crawl. I don't mind a single big scenario, but just make sure its more than hack and slash. Gimme some good roleplaying encoutners and lots of them."
There is no way to interpret that as meaning anything other than "dungeon crawl = hack and slash = no roleplaying."
At that point I'm getting a little tired of him implying that a megadungeon AP would be roleplayingless hack'n'slash because dungeon crawls are synonymous with roleplayingless hack'n'slash, and try to make it clear again that it's not the dungeon format's fault that he finds dungeon crawls to be roleplayingless hack'n'slash, because you have to play them that way to make them that way.
And then there's the quote you are claiming I made up: "Kill-Loot-Levelup/Dungeon Crawl"
That is literally saying that "Kill-Loot-Levelup" (another way of saying "hack and slash") and "Dungeon Crawl" are interchangeable words with the same meaning. That's what the "/" means there, that the words are interchangeable.
So again, tell me how I've "made up something, and attributed that to him."
I'm not sure if he can be held responsible for things he didn't say which caused a disproportionate reaction in you. Not only did he not say them, but there's only so much that can be done to shield a fragile ego from damage.
Yeah, okay. That's not flamebait. Not at all.
I think it should be noted that MANY iconic things within the game arose from the original megadungeon that spawned the game in the first place.
The Maure Castle adventures showcase dungeons with a lot secrets, mysteries, new items/magic to find, scary traps and encounters, and were not just one big hack fest.
I'd like to see something with a great deal of interaction between the city and dungeon, and useful reasons to travel back and forth between the two, with a plot that affects both areas.
A dungeon with numerous levels/areas, which are slowly uncovered like the map was in Kingmaker. Give the PCs the choice to go to areas they won't likely survive, if they choose to do so, with reasons enough to stay and explore where they are more likely to survive. Kingmaker could be a good roadmap for building a megadungeon adventure.
I would love to see a megadungeon AP
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So, what Do you mean when you say Megadungeon?
The problem is that you seem to be expecting a definition of megadungeon that feeds directly into a possible AP. But let me ask, does a definition of "kingdom" feed directly into an AP? No, but Paizo made Kingmaker. A megadungeon is a location...there's hundreds of possible adventure ideas that can be laid over them.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Is anyone a member of Dungeon a Day? How well does that handle NPC interactions/roleplaying?
To me, what makes the Mega Dungeon interesting is if the monsters/NPCs react to what the PCs do. I loved Gygax's articles about the game he would run at conventions where everyone would roll up OD&D (or maybe AD&D, I'm not grognard enough to know for sure) characters and try to take them out. Of course, being Gygax, he routinely got TPKs, and, being Gygax, he had the kobolds take the gear from the dead PCs and leveled them up to face the next group. It's that sense of a contained environment that reacts to the PCs that I like.
Anyhow, while megadungeons can be boring, it's been a while since I've seen one and I think Paizo could do it well. Maure Castle could be an apt point of comparison. There's nothing inherently wrong with the format, and I'm fairly certain Paizo will do a lot of work to address the potential weaknesses that limit the appeal of such adventures.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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At that point I'm getting a little tired of him implying that a megadungeon AP would be roleplayingless hack'n'slash because dungeon crawls are synonymous with roleplayingless hack'n'slash, and try to make it clear again that it's not the dungeon format's fault that he finds dungeon crawls to be roleplayingless hack'n'slash, because you have to play them that way to make them that way.
Get angrier and more abusive. I bet that'll convince him he's wrong and make him stop implying things you don't want to read (but that he's not actually saying).
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So, to ask again, to me, I hear Megadungeon and I think endless string of monster or trap filled rooms with a simple theme, often designed to wear the heroes down through attrition. So, what Do you mean when you say Megadungeon?
First I'll just quote Reynard, who summed it up really well:
...a megadungeon *is* a campaign, and as such it includes all of the elements of a campaign: multiple storylines, interesting recurring NPCs, character goals and growth, new and interesting vistas and so on....a megadungeon is a location that assumes a primary aspect of play is going to be dungeon exploration (in the same way, for example, that Kingmaker is a campaign wherein wilderness exploration is going to be a prime aspect of play). Instead of a broad "2D" map of a wilderness, you have a deep "3D" map of a dungeon. There are multiple powers at work, many different paths to take, and uncountable different denizens with which to deal. Instead of packs of wolves, you have carrion crawlers. Instead of foreign militias, you have orc tribes. It has its own flavor and unique challenges, of course, from traps to tricks to simple survival, but it is still a campaign.
The classic megadungeons, the ones that are really awesome, have complex internal politics, multiple ecosystems, tons of smaller adventures contained within, and generally one through-line of clues and hints that lead one inexorably downward towards some great and terrible evil. Often with the players realizing at some point that they are in a race against time to reach the bottom and stop whatever terrible evil is preparing to once again rise up and wreck havoc on the world.
My favorite megadungeon ever was Night Below, where the players start out by investigating slavers and discovered an underdark slave trade that leads them deeper and deeper into the darkness, until they reach a final confrontation with the aboleths who have masterminded the whole thing.
It's a giant dungeon. So giant there are entire cities inside it. That's what a mega-dungeon is. It's a whole world crammed into some poster sized maps.
I can't think of any mega-dungeons that are just "endless string of monster or trap filled rooms with a simple theme." Maybe The World's Largest Dungeon, but that wasn't intended for anything other than hacking your way through the whole OGL monster manual in an orderly fashion.
@Sebastion - I'm a subscriber to Dungeon A Day. I cannot recommend it enough.
It includes a lot of bonus encounters. Other NPC explorers with no set location that may be friends or foes. I also really like the revisit options, suggestions on how to keep the dungeon vibrant and living, changing as the PCs impact it.
My initial response was simply this: Not interested, at all.
But reading some posts I thought maybe that was a little unfair.
So I might be interested if it where a mega-dungeon/urban intrigue/occult investigative horror campaign. If it had strong lovecraftian elements, really strong(as good as "the power behind the throne") investigative elements in most of the adventures. The delving should be exploration and investigation driven, as well as for combat. PCs should have to flit between alliance with multiple factions, all of whom might spell doom for the city if they get the upper hand.
About half of any adventure should take place in the city, and half in the caverns and dungeons below.
Derro or ghouls might would probably make the perfect antagonists for the campaign.
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By way of getting back on-topic:
Kaer Maga would be perfect.
The whole first AP can take place in the city and set up the plot/reason for the later spelunking.
Then the city can obviously serve as a base of ops for the rest of the campaign.
Someone above talked about Kingmaker and its system of dropping new sections to explore. The undercity of Kaer Maga is already sectioned off in the abstract. Each new AP volume could reveal a new "section" of the undercity, with the last two or three volumes opening up completely new undiscovered sections that shed some light on the city's several mysteries.
The best part would be . Underwater levels! Darklands connections! Portals!
Man, if any of this sounds to you like a static, role-play free, 10x10 stone corridor hackfest, you lack even one iota of imagination.
Kaer Maga is a Mega-Dungeon, and Kaer Maga rocks!
More than any other adventure type, I think the mega dungeon is more reliant on the GM to get the players invested in the game. If you just run it as a big killing spree, of course it'll be boring. The players need a connection to the outside world and they need a really good reason to go to the dungeon. Sometimes it can come down to the GM saying it would be really great if someone played a paladin or a cleric of the god of magic or a conjurer wizard or a whatever will give the players a real investment in the dungeon.
The most fun I've had in a mega dungeon was Rappan Athuk. The GM told us before the campaign started it would be best if the there was a paladin in the group and a good aligned cleric. We also had strong ties to the towns near the dungeon and eventually were granted titles and the towns and villages near the dungeon itself. That gave everyone plenty of RP opportunities and if you've played in Rappan Athuk, you know there was plenty of combat to go around. They key was the GM worked with the group to give the PCs a life outside of the dungeon and solid RP reasons to delve inside it.
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In my utterly unasked-for opinion, I think a lot of people in this thread are bringing perceptual baggage into the discussion. Yes, dungeon-crawls can be mindless if done poorly, but then the same can be said about absolutely any other kind of campaign as well. Above all, a megadungeon is just a setting, in the same way that a little town, cosmopolitan city, or a desert, or a wilderness march, or a jungle, or a collection of spooky places, or pirate islands are just settings. It's possible to take any of the above settings and make a great, memorable campaign filled with fascinating characters, intriguing dilemmas, and deadly dangers. In the same way, it's just as possible to take any of the above settings, including your favorite one, whichever that is, and make a wearisome, tedious grind that can only be completed through sheer bloody-mindedness or the force of inertia. None of the settings listed are either easier or harder than any of the others to have a great campaign in, because they're all just settings, backdrops, scenery, and nothing more. Sure they all have their own tropes, but there's nothing inherently superior or inferior about the tropes of any one of them; they're just different.
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I think the biggest draw of dungeon crawls and mega-dungeons for "old-schoolers" is that is how most of us were introduced to the game. You couldn't really call B1-B2 megadungeons, but when you are 11 or so and fighting your way through them, they seem to go on forever, lol. The only real adventures (outside of things like The Isle of Dread) that DIDN'T take place inside a dungeon were called wandering monsters back then, and happened while you were on your way TO a dungeon. So even though most of us are into adventures a lot more sophisticated or varied now, fond memories of the first dice roll, the first monster kill, the first +1 sword, also make us fond of big dungeons. And the only thing better than a big dungeon is a mega-dungeon. :)
And +1 to the idea of a Kaer Maga mega-dungeon. The tastes we got from the campaign book and a few modules leave more questions unanswered than we started with, plus I love the whole big mystery of "it was there and ancient when the Runelords found it" aspect.
By way of getting back on-topic:
Kaer Maga would be perfect.
The whole first AP can take place in the city and set up the plot/reason for the later spelunking.
Then the city can obviously serve as a base of ops for the rest of the campaign.
Someone above talked about Kingmaker and its system of dropping new sections to explore. The undercity of Kaer Maga is already sectioned off in the abstract. Each new AP volume could reveal a new "section" of the undercity, with the last two or three volumes opening up completely new undiscovered sections that shed some light on the city's several mysteries.
The best part would be . Underwater levels! Darklands connections! Portals!
Man, if any of this sounds to you like a static, role-play free, 10x10 stone corridor hackfest, you lack even one iota of imagination.
Kaer Maga is a Mega-Dungeon, and Kaer Maga rocks!
Kaer Maga would also save them from having to do an accompanying Campaign Settings book since they already have one. Unless they want to do another (which I wouldn't be opposed to). Kaer Maga would also give you the chance of working for and possibly competing with the different factions within the city which could allow for some good roleplaying opportunities.
The classic megadungeons, the ones that are really awesome, have complex internal politics, multiple ecosystems, tons of smaller adventures contained within, and generally one through-line of clues and hints that lead one inexorably downward towards some great and terrible evil. Often with the players realizing at some point that they are in a race against time to reach the bottom and stop whatever terrible evil is preparing to once again rise up and wreck havoc on the world.
Emphasis mine...
Now that sounds better. If it were developed that way, it would be something that might peak my interest. (My request for a Megadungeon definitieon was not to sound sarcastic, I genuinely want to know what people find interesting about them.)
And to clarify, to me, Dungeon Crawl is by definition a hack and slash loot-fest. I.E. Diablo... If a Dungeon, even a big one, has good roleplaying elements, then to me its not a Dungeon Crawl.
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And to clarify, to me, Dungeon Crawl is by definition a hack and slash loot-fest. I.E. Diablo... If a Dungeon, even a big one, has good roleplaying elements, then to me its not a Dungeon Crawl.
A dungeon crawl is an adventure that involves exploring a dungeon. Using it as a pejorative is going to offend people.