The Chaotic Evil Aasimar Paladin who Smites Teh Evilz


Rules Questions


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Warning This Post Is Probably Going to Drive Some People Crazy
If the title somehow offends your sensibilities, it is probably less than a good idea to actually pursue this thread in any length for fear of exploding heads. This thread was posted because of a humorous bit in the rules, and such levels of system twisting may require an increase in heart medication for those uninitiated to system humors.

You have been warned.

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So I was browsing through the rules today, as part of conversing with some Paizo messageboarders while planning some stuff for my own games, and came across a few interesting tidbits which I found humorous (and in some ways quite cool).

It's possible to have a Chaotic Evil Paladin, according to the rules. If this boggles your mind or amuses you, read on.

PRD - Paladin wrote:
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
PRD - Atonement wrote:

This spell removes the burden of misdeeds from the subject. The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings). Atonement may be cast for one of several purposes, depending on the version selected.

Reverse Magical Alignment Change: If a creature has had its alignment magically changed, atonement returns its alignment to its original status at no additional cost.

Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.

Restore Cleric or Druid Spell Powers: A cleric or druid who has lost the ability to cast spells by incurring the anger of her deity may regain that ability by seeking atonement from another cleric of the same deity or another druid. If the transgression was intentional, the casting cleric must expend 2,500 gp in rare incense and offerings for her god's intercession.

Redemption or Temptation: You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours. The prospective subject must be present for the entire casting process. Upon completion of the spell, the subject freely chooses whether it retains its original alignment or acquiesces to your offer and changes to your alignment. No duress, compulsion, or magical influence can force the subject to take advantage of the opportunity offered if it is unwilling to abandon its old alignment. This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally.

Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, regardless of the actual alignment in question.

Note: Normally, changing alignment is up to the player. This use of atonement offers a method for a character to change his or her alignment drastically, suddenly, and definitively.

If our Paladin was to become Chaotic Evil, the Paladin has obviously committed an evil act and lost the ability to use his class features and advance in levels of Paladin. However, you can cast Atonement and choose to restore all his class abilities permanently (instantaneous duration) by choosing the Restore Class option. This also allows her to continue advancing as a Paladin, by the Paladin's class description. Now most would probably also go ahead and get their alignment shifted back to Lawful Good while they're at it.

Unless you're an aasimar. See as an outsider, aasimars cannot have their alignment changed suddenly by atonement, but they can have their class features and ability to advance in level restored.

So it looks like by the rules you can actually have a Paladin who falls off the morality train, regain his class features, be Chaotic Evil, and still function to fight evil and its ilk with smite evil and all those cool things. He'll just happen to show up as super-holy (Aura of Good) while also showing up super evil (he's an Evil Outsider (Native).

Carry on my wayward sons. :P

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

PRD wrote:
The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds.

Except for that part.

A Chaotic-Evil character is not going to be truly repentant.


the question you should now ask is:
Is being evil an evil act?

Probably not, but being evil --> making evil, and making evil --> being evil, thus it should be being evil = making evil = loosing all your paladin things immediatly.

God I love logic to screw with peoples minds.

However:
nice catch, really sweet idea


Ashiel wrote:
See as an outsider, aasimars cannot have their alignment changed suddenly by atonement, but they can have their class features and ability to advance in level restored.

Do you have a source for this? Outsider's immunity to atonement is not part of the atonement spell, nor is it part of the outsider type. Without such a source, an Aasimar Ex-paladin would be reverted to LG when atoned, and the whole thing falls apart.

Also, I'd say that choosing to not return to being LG would be an evil act and would cause the paladin to immediately fall again. A possible loophole might be if the paladin fell by being too chaotic (CG), then became evil (CE), then atoned back to CG. It would be a chaotic act but not an evil one to become CG instead of LG, so it wouldn't necessarily trigger an immediate fall.

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:

If our Paladin was to become Chaotic Evil, the Paladin has obviously committed an evil act and lost the ability to use his class features and advance in levels of Paladin. However, you can cast Atonement and choose to restore all his class abilities permanently (instantaneous duration) by choosing the Restore Class option. This also allows her to continue advancing as a Paladin, by the Paladin's class description. Now most would probably also go ahead and get their alignment shifted back to Lawful Good while they're at it.

Unless you're an aasimar. See as an outsider, aasimars cannot have their alignment changed suddenly by atonement, but they can have their class features and ability to advance in level restored.

So it looks like by the rules you can actually have a Paladin who falls off the morality train, regain his class features, be Chaotic Evil, and still function to fight evil and its ilk with smite evil and all those cool things. He'll just happen to show up as super-holy (Aura of Good) while also showing up super evil (he's an Evil Outsider (Native).

Quote:

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good,

Let's suppose he is truly repentant. He get restored to his former class but not his former alignment. A split second later he lose again his paladin powers ha he is not Lawful Good.

Don't work.


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Ross Byers wrote:

Except for that part.

A Chaotic-Evil character is not going to be truly repentant.

This directly contradicts the wording of the spell. If the Chaotic Evil Aasimar (or Tiefling) is repentant (feels guilty and regretful) of his actions, the atonement spell goes through. See Repent.

It is in fact entirely possible for an Aasimar Paladin to go the antihero route and then, sorry for the bloodshed that he has caused, seek atonement. 2500 gp later, and he has his class features back - but he's still Chaotic Evil for the time being.

Bobson wrote:

Do you have a source for this? Outsider's immunity to atonement is not part of the atonement spell, nor is it part of the outsider type. Without such a source, an Aasimar Ex-paladin would be reverted to LG when atoned, and the whole thing falls apart.

Also, I'd say that choosing to not return to being LG would be an evil act and would cause the paladin to immediately fall again. A possible loophole might be if the paladin fell by being too chaotic (CG), then became evil (CE), then atoned back to CG. It would be a chaotic act but not an evil one to become CG instead of LG, so it wouldn't necessarily trigger an immediate fall.

The atonement spell specifically says, under the section that allows you to change your alignment instantly, that the alignment shift does not work on outsiders. Aasimar and Tieflings are outsiders (native), so it does not work on them.

So you literally cannot choose to instantly return to being lawful good. Likewise, even if you didn't choose to be lawful good, not choosing to have your alignment magically changed to good is not an evil act, because if it was, then everyone who was not Good would immediately fall to Evil because of this evil act of not seeking atonement immediately.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Ashiel wrote:

If our Paladin was to become Chaotic Evil, the Paladin has obviously committed an evil act and lost the ability to use his class features and advance in levels of Paladin. However, you can cast Atonement and choose to restore all his class abilities permanently (instantaneous duration) by choosing the Restore Class option. This also allows her to continue advancing as a Paladin, by the Paladin's class description. Now most would probably also go ahead and get their alignment shifted back to Lawful Good while they're at it.

Unless you're an aasimar. See as an outsider, aasimars cannot have their alignment changed suddenly by atonement, but they can have their class features and ability to advance in level restored.

So it looks like by the rules you can actually have a Paladin who falls off the morality train, regain his class features, be Chaotic Evil, and still function to fight evil and its ilk with smite evil and all those cool things. He'll just happen to show up as super-holy (Aura of Good) while also showing up super evil (he's an Evil Outsider (Native).

Quote:

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good,

Let's suppose he is truly repentant. He get restored to his former class but not his former alignment. A split second later he lose again his paladin powers ha he is not Lawful Good.

Don't work.

Actually it does. If you read the entirety of the Ex-Paladin paragraph, which I posted in the original post, it says:

Paladin wrote:
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.

Emphasis mine.

Atonement wrote:
Restore Class: A paladin, or other class, who has lost her class features due to violating the alignment restrictions of her class may have her class features restored by this spell.

The paladin only ceases to be Lawful Good at the time that the paladin goes from Lawful Good to another alignment (see cease). A paladin can have her paladinhood re-instated via Atonement and the sacrifice of 2500 gp, and resume working as a Paladin while her alignment is currently not Lawful Good.

Now, further evil acts would of course cause the Paladin to fall. Thus the Paladin would very likely begin to climb the moral ladder once more, moving from Evil to Neutral to Good as she goes (less she fall again and loose all of her abilities again).

So yeah, it works.

Now the question is, how can we make this interesting?

Idea: I'm thinking this would be a really cool NPC or even PC. One who has basically suffered a terrible fall. Lost sight of everything they believed in, and maybe even crossed the moral event horizon, only to realize they had made a terrible mistake. So they seek atonement, and have their paladinhood re-instated. Now they venture back out to try and succeed where they once failed, now with a chance for redemption.

During their quest, of course, they would be evil and would suffer the burning of spells like smite evil for their past sins. However, they would curiously also radiate an aura of good as well (so they'd ping on both detect evil and detect good, possibly confusing the heck out of characters such as Inquisitors).

"I carry a burden of ten thousand sins upon me. I have been to the edge. I know what lies down that road! Everything you are, so was I! You could choose to come back, as I have! There is always hope!" - Alexander Silvermane, Lawful Neutral (formerly Neutral Evil) redeemed Paladin speaking to a powerful lich.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I believe your argument is tripped up more directly by the statement at the beginning of the code of conduct.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment"

Thus, until the character has returned to that alignment, he remains an ex-paladin.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

I believe your argument is tripped up more directly by the statement at the beginning of the code of conduct.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment"

Thus, until the character has returned to that alignment, he remains an ex-paladin.

Hmmm, you might be right on that one. I would pose that it only says that she looses her powers if she willingly commits an evil act. However, you do have a point. I'm going to think about this for a bit.

Anyway, it's not exactly an abuse that you can use for power, to my knowledge. Even if your alignment isn't LG, you can't commit evil acts afterwords, or else you fall again. Hence, you might be Evil for a time, but you'll soon become Neutral and then Good once more.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I don't disagree, but I think you're twisting the words just a bit to get there. Which is fine for those of us who enjoy the letter of the law and such. :)


While a horrible abuse of RAW vs RAI, I can't help but find it apealing as a roleplay concept. The thought you put into makes it obvious that it's not munkiny chease, and honestly, if I was DMing and some one sugested that idea you proposed, complete with characterization, I would allow it. Of course it's blantently against the rule, but rule 0 and everything.


So lets assume your CE ex-paladin uses attonement and becomes a paladin again. His alignment is still CE but if he ever does another thing that is evil, he loses his paladin powers again. Doesn't that mean that for all intents and purposes that your paladin is good or atleast on the fast track to becoming good anyway(the regular non atonement way)?

The only thing I can see is that for a few weeks or months or so, your paladin is going to be susceptible to smite evil.


Ashiel wrote:


The atonement spell specifically says, under the section that allows you to change your alignment instantly, that the alignment shift does not work on outsiders. Aasimar and Tieflings are outsiders (native), so it does not work on them.

I totally missed that line. Thanks.

Contributor

Mind you, the rationale for not allowing atonement on outsiders is one of intrinsic nature. True outsiders have no body/soul duality, while mortals do. I'd exempt aasimar and tieflings (and any planetouched in general since they're still mortal and possess body/soul duality) from the boilerplate result for atonement on outsiders.

A CE aasimar paladin is still an ex-paladin with no powers though regardless.


Quote:
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and class features (including the service of the paladin's mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
Quote:
She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description in Spell Lists), as appropriate.
Quote:
as appropriate.

Is this a qualifier I see before me?


TriOmegaZero wrote:

I believe your argument is tripped up more directly by the statement at the beginning of the code of conduct.

"A paladin must be of lawful good alignment"

Thus, until the character has returned to that alignment, he remains an ex-paladin.

Think TriOmega has the truth of it. If your going to try to bend the rules by using the rules as written you have to play with all the rules as written.

Scarab Sages

Ross Byers wrote:
PRD wrote:
The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds.

Except for that part.

A Chaotic-Evil character is not going to be truly repentant.

And what high priest will willingly cast the atonement on an unrepentant person?

And if he's forced to cast it under duress, the enforcer obviously isn't repentant.
And if the target gets someone else, to force the priest, to cast the spell, will his deity know that, and block the effect?

Dark Archive

There is no such thing as a paladin (With class abilities) who does not have a LG alignment.


Tobias wrote:
Is this a qualifier I see before me?

A good catch, and a funny one at that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Carbon D. Metric wrote:
There is no such thing as a paladin (With class abilities) who does not have a LG alignment.

Factually incorrect.


Stynkk wrote:
Tobias wrote:
Is this a qualifier I see before me?
A good catch, and a funny one at that.

Yeah... I think that rule exists so that paladin's who screw up don't just find someone to Use Magic Device them an Atonement.

"What's that Abadar? Of course you forgave me for burning down that orphanage! I totally atoned for that. You're so busy you probably just forgot when High Priest *coughsomeguywithscroll* gave me your blessing again."


kitmehsu wrote:
While a horrible abuse of RAW vs RAI, I can't help but find it apealing as a roleplay concept. The thought you put into makes it obvious that it's not munkiny chease, and honestly, if I was DMing and some one sugested that idea you proposed, complete with characterization, I would allow it. Of course it's blantently against the rule, but rule 0 and everything.

I know right? I started looking at it when I realized that tieflings and aasimar can't use atonement to change alignment by RAW, but then noticed that they might not have to. I'm still not 100% certain that this doesn't work because of the wording of Ex-Paladin (the actual part that makes you fall) and the wording of Atonement (which specifically restores your class features). The code of Conduct details that the Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment and that willingly committing an evil act causes them to loose their Paladin powers. Alignment however is not conduct. It is a result of conduct. Someone following the Paladin's code of conduct will become Lawful Good naturally. In short, Conduct by definition requires activity.

Likewise, the actual rules for the Paladin falling (detailed below) note that they lose their abilities when they cease being Lawful Good. It does not say that they cannot regain their abilities while not being Lawful Good. I would pose that a non-Lawful Good Paladin could repent and regain their powers as long as they committed no further evil acts and followed the code of conduct (not cheating, stealing, etc).

thepuregamer wrote:

So lets assume your CE ex-paladin uses attonement and becomes a paladin again. His alignment is still CE but if he ever does another thing that is evil, he loses his paladin powers again. Doesn't that mean that for all intents and purposes that your paladin is good or atleast on the fast track to becoming good anyway(the regular non atonement way)?

The only thing I can see is that for a few weeks or months or so, your paladin is going to be susceptible to smite evil.

Well it'd probably depend on how bad he was beforehand. It's not clearly spelled out how much good/evil you have to do before you cross alignment borders. But yeah, it would of course mean he was back on the path of true atonement (by true atonement, I mean living the path until he was Lawful Good, rather than just going the crappy "Make me LG" atonement method). He could be granted his ability to fight evil, but he'd have to suffer the burden of his misdeeds until then (notice he'll notice himself if he looks towards himself with detect evil, and he'll be vulnerable to holy things he's normally immune to).

That's kind of awesome.

=====================================================================

And if not Paladin, then a Cleric could do so. The rules for Ex-Clerics are less finicky, it seems. They could grossly violate the tenants and then turn to seek redemption.


Ashiel wrote:
It's possible to have a Chaotic Evil Paladin, according to the rules.

Only if you ignore one simple thing: Part of the class requirement to be a 'Paladin' (and not one of the 3.5 Paladin VARIANTS) is a Lawful Good alignment. Changing alignment and atoning does not alter this requirement to BE a Paladin. Nothing in anything you have posted says that it will allow a paladin to not obey the basic prerequisites/requirements of the class.

Of course you can house rule it but then you can house rule anything so who cares.

Atonement is a process to get back in good standing. If you want to still be a Paladin, much like if you want to keep using a feat, you must still meet the prerequisites of the class, including alignment. Since nowhere in the class does it say anything other than Lawful Good is acceptible, you can't.


Gilfalas wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
It's possible to have a Chaotic Evil Paladin, according to the rules.

Only if you ignore one simple thing: Part of the class requirement to be a 'Paladin' (and not one of the 3.5 Paladin VARIANTS) is a Lawful Good alignment. Changing alignment and atoning does not alter this requirement to BE a Paladin. Nothing in anything you have posted says that it will allow a paladin to not obey the basic prerequisites/requirements of the class.

Of course you can house rule it but then you can house rule anything so who cares.

Atonement is a process to get back in good standing. If you want to still be a Paladin, much like if you want to keep using a feat, you must still meet the prerequisites of the class, including alignment. Since nowhere in the class does it say anything other than Lawful Good is acceptible, you can't.

What happens if a CE ex-paladin puts on a helmet of opposite alignment? :)


Ashiel wrote:
kitmehsu wrote:
While a horrible abuse of RAW vs RAI, I can't help but find it apealing as a roleplay concept. The thought you put into makes it obvious that it's not munkiny chease, and honestly, if I was DMing and some one sugested that idea you proposed, complete with characterization, I would allow it. Of course it's blantently against the rule, but rule 0 and everything.
I know right? I started looking at it when I realized that tieflings and aasimar can't use atonement to change alignment by RAW, but then noticed that they might not have to. I'm still not 100% certain that this doesn't work because of the wording of Ex-Paladin (the actual part that makes you fall) and the wording of Atonement (which specifically restores your class features). The code of Conduct details that the Paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment and that willingly committing an evil act causes them to loose their Paladin powers. Alignment however is not conduct. It is a result of conduct. Someone following the Paladin's code of conduct will become Lawful Good naturally. In short, Conduct by definition requires activity.

Alignment is mindset combined with conduct. Someone can have dark thoughts, but they aren't evil if they recognize those thoughts for what they are and make an effort to not carry them.

Besides, the atonement spell isn't the only thing that applies to getting back your powers. The ex-paladin entry specifies that they can get their abilities back by atoning (as the spell) as appropriate.

So when Atonement gets cast the GM has to take a moment to consider, "Is it appropriate that a paladin be chaotic evil and still have all their powers because of a loophole in the spell?" If he answers no, as any reasonable GM would, it doesn't work.

Atonement allows classes to get back their class abilities, but the paladin class adds wording keeps it from being a simple application of the spell. After all, it isn't appropriate that CE ex-paladin of Idomedae get his abilities back when he's still chaotic evil and it was a high priest of Rovagug or a Chaotic Evil bard with a scroll in a back alley that cast Atonement for him. It also isn't appropriate that he still have the mindset and behaviour that lost him his Lawful Good alignment either when getting the spell, as it shows he is not truly repentant (which is a requirement of the spell).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thepuregamer wrote:

So lets assume your CE ex-paladin uses attonement and becomes a paladin again. His alignment is still CE but if he ever does another thing that is evil, he loses his paladin powers again. Doesn't that mean that for all intents and purposes that your paladin is good or atleast on the fast track to becoming good anyway(the regular non atonement way)?

The only thing I can see is that for a few weeks or months or so, your paladin is going to be susceptible to smite evil.

Save that it doesn't work. Paladin... alignment requirement: LAWFUL GOOD. You can not be one if this requirement is not met.

Ashiel's thought experiment is dead before it even gets to the starting gate.

A paladin who falls is not necessarily a person who's left the Lawful Good alignment, he's one who's fallen short of what the code demands. If it's a character that's likely to seek atonment that it's one who never left the lawful good corner of the box. One who ceases to be lawful good however is probably not coming back to the class.

Someone who's tumbled all the way down to chaotic evil isn't coming back as a Paladin, he's most likely already become an Anti-Paladin and is determinedly the scourge of all he once held dear. He's changed so radically and fallen so far the return to Good status let alone the strict confines of Paladinhood is for all practicality, inconceivable.


LazarX wrote:
thepuregamer wrote:

So lets assume your CE ex-paladin uses attonement and becomes a paladin again. His alignment is still CE but if he ever does another thing that is evil, he loses his paladin powers again. Doesn't that mean that for all intents and purposes that your paladin is good or atleast on the fast track to becoming good anyway(the regular non atonement way)?

The only thing I can see is that for a few weeks or months or so, your paladin is going to be susceptible to smite evil.

Save that it doesn't work. Paladin... alignment requirement: LAWFUL GOOD. You can not be one if this requirement is not met.

Ashiel's thought experiment is dead before it even gets to the starting gate.

A paladin who falls is not necessarily a person who's left the Lawful Good alignment, he's one who's fallen short of what the code demands. If it's a character that's likely to seek atonment that it's one who never left the lawful good corner of the box. One who ceases to be lawful good however is probably not coming back to the class.

Someone who's tumbled all the way down to chaotic evil isn't coming back as a Paladin, he's most likely already become an Anti-Paladin and is determinedly the scourge of all he once held dear. He's changed so radically and fallen so far the return to Good status let alone the strict confines of Paladinhood is for all practicality, inconceivable.

woah reduce the hostility mister.

I was not saying whether it worked or not. I just thought that if we were willing to argue about this, I wanted to see whether the end result you arrive at is all that different from regular atonement. IE, Ashiel's supposed aasimar has to be sincere in their repentance. So we have an ex-paladin who has become chaotic evil and then later wants to repent of their evil ways. It looks like to me, if they take attonement and get their abilities back that they are just a lawful evil paladin in name. IE, he is still going to be a well meaning and well intentioned character except that he can still be hit with smite.

This thought experiment brings up a different and important point. If the example does not work, this implies a whole new problem.

If we have an aasimar paladin who falls for whatever reason. Lets say he is now a chaotic evil aasimar ex-paladin. If he ever wants to redeem himself and get his powers back... he can't.

Outsiders cannot use atonement to change their alignment. Thus this Aasimar cannot use atonement to change his alignment or get his class abilities back. He is stuck as a warrior for until he can slowly grind his way back to lawful good.

Dark Archive

Todd Stewart wrote:
Mind you, the rationale for not allowing atonement on outsiders is one of intrinsic nature. True outsiders have no body/soul duality, while mortals do.

That's my thought, too. Demons (and Archons) can't be alignment-changed because evil (or good) as what they are made of, just as a fire elemental is made of fire.

Granted, even then, exceptions do exist, such as angels falling and becoming devils, but those I consider to be instances that require a heck of a lot more than just an atonement spell. (Some sort of total blood transfusion, sucking out all the good and replacing it with evil, or something freaky like that...)

Since Aasimar and Tieflings can be any alignment they want, and don't have the [good] or [evil] subtype, I'd allow them to have their alignment change either incrementally over time, or via atonement, or via helm of opposite alignment.

Indeed, that might be far more useful verbiage, right there. Atonement can't change the alignment of something with the [chaos], [evil], [good] or [law] subtype to an alignment opposed to their type. It shouldn't be the outsider type that makes them alignment-locked, it should be the alignment sub-type. So one could have a non-evil or non-lawful Efreeti or a non-chaotic or non-good Djinni (since those outsiders don't have alignment subtypes), but demons and devils would be harder to change, since they are, at least in part, made up of evil.

If you want an evil-smiting evil character, just give an evil tiefling the celestial template. :)

"Yeah, my dad was a cambion, but I was born in Elysium, so I can smite my fiendish dad right in the face if I ever see him."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thepuregamer wrote:

woah reduce the hostility mister.

I was not saying whether it worked or not. I just thought that if we were willing to argue about this, I wanted to see whether the end result you arrive at is all that different from regular atonement. IE, Ashiel's supposed aasimar has to be sincere in their repentance. So we have an ex-paladin who has become chaotic evil and then later wants to repent of their evil ways. It looks like to me, if they take attonement and get their abilities back that they are just a lawful evil paladin in name. IE, he is still going to be a well meaning and well intentioned character except that he can still be hit with smite.

This thought experiment brings up a different and important point. If the example does not work, this implies a whole new problem.

If we have an aasimar paladin who falls for whatever reason. Lets say he is now a chaotic evil aasimar ex-paladin. If he ever wants to redeem himself and get his powers back... he can't.

Outsiders cannot use atonement to change their alignment. Thus this Aasimar cannot use atonement to change his alignment or get his class abilities back. He is stuck as a warrior for until he can slowly grind his way back to lawful good

Pointing out that an example is wrong is not hostility. What Ashiel is describing is a paladin who fell out not only of code but alignment as well. So there are actually two things to fix. Before the person can even think about becoming a Paladin again they first have to go through the process of atoning back to a LG alignment. Only once that is done can becoming a Paladin again even be discussed. There is no way to rules monkey a Paladin with paladin abilities and a non-LG alignment unless you're rules-breaking.


to be honest, I think the rules are already broken in this scenario. I think that the wording of atonement would be improved if it only stated that it could not be used to change the alignment of creatures whose alignment cannot change naturally.

Instead it says, "This use of the spell does not work on outsiders or any creature incapable of changing its alignment naturally."

Because this scenario actually brings up much more.

can assimars change their alignment naturally? If they can, they can lose their class powers but be unable to get them back.


Slaunyeh wrote:
What happens if a CE ex-paladin puts on a helmet of opposite alignment? :)

He becomes a Lawful Good EX Paladin and can start the process of becoming a Paladin again, if he is truly repentant and sorry and wants to be a Paladin again. Part of that process is the atonement spell.

Alingments and Paladins are not on/off switches, though. Obviously one can play the game that basically, as some form of computer like game where all your asnwers are on/off but it is counter to the intent of the Paladin class and Role Playing in general, IMO.

The Exchange

Ahem, why even try to get your paladinhood back? Why not just fall to evil while you are at it?

Also: I agree with the RAI and would never let the RAW get in the way. By the simple virtue that Tieflings and Aasimar are mortal beings with free choice over their morality, atonement should work on them.

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