Thread started for side discussion on Empower Spell. Please move conversation on topic from big "frequently unknown rules" and/or "FAQ needed threads.
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Howie23 wrote: Thread started for side discussion on Empower Spell. Please move conversation on topic from big "frequently unknown rules" and/or "FAQ needed threads. Empower Spell wrote:
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
PF goes from the SRD which does not include any examples. The example in the 3rd edition PhB for this is the spell magic missile, where it says that the 1d4+1 is multiplied for each empowered missile.
Many people confuse 'variable' with 'dice'. They will contend that 1d4+1 always has a '1'.
They are mistaken. Their argument should be that 1d4+1 always has a '2' as that is the minimum amount.
Regardless the variable, numeric damage of a magic missile is 2-5 and that is the number that gets increased by half.
Now the number of missiles for a given magic missile spell is NOT variable, but rather a set number once the spell gets cast as caster level is then fixed.
However spells that deal 1d6+level do deal a random amount of damage that for say a 5th level caster would be 6-11. The spell does not say that it deals 1d6 damage and deals 1 point of damage per level separately. Rather the amount, which is set at the time of casting is a variable, numeric amount.
This has seen great table variation. Once a region settles on one way of reading it they tend to self-reinforce. Such is the nature of our game. If dice were meant or are currently meant by our current author/designers, by all means rewrite the silly feat to use the word 'dice'! Meanwhile if you wish it to actually be variable, numeric effects then leave it but have a FAQ entry (and honestly an example like the PhB included)!
-James
I thought I solved this already? No? ;)
What is meaningful in interpreting this feat is "variable", "random", and "damage".
From the PRD:
Empower Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
So right off the bat this feat only affects spells that cause damage. So that eliminates any non damage causing spells immediately. For instance, any healing spell is not a candidate unless it is doing damage (like to undead). So Ray of Enfeeblement ("The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1") can NOT be Empowered using this feat. Color Spray, no damage, no empower, etc.
So the next step is to look for variable numeric effects that are randomly generated in the damage causing spell.
For Magic Missile the damage is "1d4+1 points of force damage" per missile. As you go up in levels you get MORE missiles but the damage of those missiles does not vary it is only random, so Empower has no affect on Magic Missile.
For fireball it is simple, 1d6 points of (random) damage per (variable) level. SO Empower works fine for Fireball and Lightning Bolt, for example.
Now, lets do a complex one, "Destruction".
PRD:
"This spell instantly delivers 10 points of damage per caster level." This is variable (per level) but not random, it is a static 10 points per level, so no Empower benefit here. However further down is says: "If the target's Fortitude saving throw succeeds, it instead takes 10d6 points of damage.", well now we have some random damage but it is NOT variable. It is always 10d6 no matter what. So we see this is consistent and Empower has no affect on "Destruction".
james maissen wrote: Howie23 wrote: Thread started for side discussion on Empower Spell. Please move conversation on topic from big "frequently unknown rules" and/or "FAQ needed threads. Empower Spell wrote:
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
PF goes from the SRD which does not include any examples. The example in the 3rd edition PhB for this is the spell magic missile, where it says that the 1d4+1 is multiplied for each empowered missile.
Many people confuse 'variable' with 'dice'. They will contend that 1d4+1 always has a '1'.
They are mistaken. Their argument should be that 1d4+1 always has a '2' as that is the minimum amount.
Regardless the variable, numeric damage of a magic missile is 2-5 and that is the number that gets increased by half.
Now the number of missiles for a given magic missile spell is NOT variable, but rather a set number once the spell gets cast as caster level is then fixed.
However spells that deal 1d6+level do deal a random amount of damage that for say a 5th level caster would be 6-11. The spell does not say that it deals 1d6 damage and deals 1 point of damage per level separately. Rather the amount, which is set at the time of casting is a variable, numeric amount.
This has seen great table variation. Once a region settles on one way of reading it they tend to self-reinforce. Such is the nature of our game. If dice were meant or are currently meant by our current author/designers, by all means rewrite the silly feat to use the word 'dice'! Meanwhile if you wish it to actually be variable, numeric effects then leave it but have a FAQ entry (and honestly an example like the PhB included)!
-James This is the way I have always read the feat. The damage of a fireball cast by a 10th level wizard is a Variable ranging from 10-60. Dice are used to determine this variable. The damage of a Magic Missile is a variable ranging from 2-5 and dice are used to determine this.
When you look at 1d4+1 or 1d6+1 per caster level the +1 is part of the formula used to determine that variable amount.
Heck if I wrote a spell that said "this spell inflicts damage based on drawning three cards from a deck of cards. Total the value of each card (face cards are worth 15 points) and that is the damage the spell does."
The damage is a variable amount even though each card adds a set value.
Ok not the best example.....
That's the way I run it in my game. I know alot of people disagree with this and only have the value of the dice rolled affected by the Empower Feat.
Quote: You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage. I don't think the "basic description" of the feat was intended to be part of the rules. This just describes ONE way the feat's effect can be applied. Not the only way.
If so, this is one of the few feats that actually has a rules component in its basic description.
cibet44 wrote: I thought I solved this already? No? ;)
What is meaningful in interpreting this feat is "variable", "random", and "damage".
No, you didn't solve it. ;)
cibet44 wrote: From the PRD:
Empower Spell (Metamagic)
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half.
The general interpretation of abilities is that there is a fluff section, and there is a mechanical benefit section. The fluff section isn't rules, it is the typical description of how used. So, the damage term is in fluff and isn't a rule. The Benefit section doesn't limit to damaging spells. IIRC (books packed), Complete Arcane's RoSP explicitly is built around empowering cure spells.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.
Quote: For Magic Missile the damage is "1d4+1 points of force damage" per missile. As you go up in levels you get MORE missiles but the damage of those missiles does not vary it is only random, so Empower has no affect on Magic Missile. It doesn't affect the number of missiles; that is fixed by CL. It does affect the damage per missile. Whether it applies to 1d4 or 1d4+1 is the question.
Quote: For fireball it is simple, 1d6 points of (random) damage per (variable) level. SO Empower works fine for Fireball and Lightning Bolt, for example. Correct. It it affects the result of the dice (variable), but not the number of dice, which are based on CL, and thus fixed for this casting.
Quote: Now, lets do a complex one, "Destruction".
PRD:
"This spell instantly delivers 10 points of damage per caster level." This is variable (per level) but not random, it is a static 10 points per level, so no Empower benefit here. However further down is says: "If the target's Fortitude saving throw succeeds, it instead takes 10d6 points of damage.", well now we have some random damage but it is NOT variable. It is always 10d6 no matter what. So we see this is consistent and Empower has no affect on "Destruction".
I think most will see this as exact opposite. The 10/CL is fixed and doesn't change. The 10d6 is variable and is affected by Empower.
First Empower can effect things other than Damage. The Healing Domain automatically empowers all healing effects.
While it specifically stats damage in the "Description" Portion. In the actual Benefits sections it stats "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell...." All seems pretty inclusive to me. In never singles out damage in the descriptive text and in no edition 3.0, 3.5, PF, etc. was empower limited to only damage causing spells. Developers have even given examples of empower being used with things like enervation, cure spells, mirror image, etc....
cibet44 wrote: I thought I solved this already? No? ;)
What is meaningful in interpreting this feat is "variable", "random", and "damage".
You seem to be taking Random, Variables as being Two distict different things. 1d4+1 is a random variable ranging in value from 2-5.
1d4+10 is a random variable ranging in value from 11-14.
People are going to read the feat very different ways. If I remember correctly even some of the game designers have different views on the matter.
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Here's Jason Buhlman's post on the matter from a couple of years ago. It's not official but the Lead Designer's opinion, even if it is off the cuff, is good enough for me.
Click Me.
Howie23 wrote:
The general interpretation of abilities is that there is a fluff section, and there is a mechanical benefit section. The fluff section isn't rules, it is the typical description of how used. So, the damage term is in fluff and isn't a rule.
I've not made that distinction before, I don't think. To me it seems pretty clear, in my games Empower is only good for damage. Maybe that's why my group seems to have no problems with it.
Howie23 wrote:
I think most will see this as exact opposite. The 10/CL is fixed and doesn't change. The 10d6 is variable and is affected by Empower.
So, by your interpretation, Empowering a Destruction spell would only be meaningful if the target failed their save? That seems overly complex and inconsistent to me. In my interpretation at least it works out consistently whether the save is made or not.
The_Hanged_Man wrote: Here's Jason Buhlman's post on the matter from a couple of years ago. It's not official but the Lead Designer's opinion, even if it is off the cuff, is good enough for me.
Click Me.
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Kalyth wrote: The Healing Domain automatically empowers all healing effects.
I assume you are referring to this:
Healer's Blessing (Su): At 6th level, all of your cure spells are treated as if they were empowered, increasing the amount of damage healed by half (+50%). This does not apply to damage dealt to undead with a cure spell. This does not stack with the Empower Spell metamagic feat.
That's new with PF and so new to me. The part that disturbs me about it is: " This does not stack with the Empower Spell metamagic feat.".
To me this is an error in that it assumes you could use the Empower feat with healing. I don't think Empower was ever meant to be used with anything other than damage spells and I think whomever added this Domain power to PF did not understand that. I admit that's controversial to say but the more I read with the PF rules the more examples of this kind of thing I see.
Hmmm. I'm sticking with my interpretation of Empower in that it only affects damage dealt. At the very least it clears up a lot of issues with the feat. I do think it is the true spirit of the feat as well. If PF or even a 3.5 splat book inadvertently changed this I guess that explains why my group has never had a problem with it to begin with.
cibet44 wrote: Hmmm. I'm sticking with my interpretation of Empower in that it only affects damage dealt. At the very least it clears up a lot of issues with the feat. I do think it is the true spirit of the feat as well. If PF or even a 3.5 splat book inadvertently changed this I guess that explains why my group has never had a problem with it to begin with. What about ability damage? Ability drain?
erik542 wrote: cibet44 wrote: Hmmm. I'm sticking with my interpretation of Empower in that it only affects damage dealt. At the very least it clears up a lot of issues with the feat. I do think it is the true spirit of the feat as well. If PF or even a 3.5 splat book inadvertently changed this I guess that explains why my group has never had a problem with it to begin with. What about ability damage? Ability drain? Any kind of damage as long as it is variable and random (see my above post).
cibet44 wrote: erik542 wrote: cibet44 wrote: Hmmm. I'm sticking with my interpretation of Empower in that it only affects damage dealt. At the very least it clears up a lot of issues with the feat. I do think it is the true spirit of the feat as well. If PF or even a 3.5 splat book inadvertently changed this I guess that explains why my group has never had a problem with it to begin with. What about ability damage? Ability drain? Any kind of damage as long as it is variable and random (see my above post). No empowered enervates? I mean there's a reason why they specifically worded intensified spell the way they did.
cibet44 wrote: So, by your interpretation, Empowering a Destruction spell would only be meaningful if the target failed their save? That seems overly complex and inconsistent to me. In my interpretation at least it works out consistently whether the save is made or not. Apparently, consistency is variable, even if not random. ;)
Yes, per my view, empowered destruction would only change destruction if the dice damage came into effect. :)
erik542 wrote: cibet44 wrote: erik542 wrote: cibet44 wrote: Hmmm. I'm sticking with my interpretation of Empower in that it only affects damage dealt. At the very least it clears up a lot of issues with the feat. I do think it is the true spirit of the feat as well. If PF or even a 3.5 splat book inadvertently changed this I guess that explains why my group has never had a problem with it to begin with. What about ability damage? Ability drain? Any kind of damage as long as it is variable and random (see my above post). No empowered enervates? I mean there's a reason why they specifically worded intensified spell the way they did. Nope Enervation can not be Empowered. In our games we have always done this.
Another example:
Vampiric touch
Your touch deals 1d6 (random) points of damage (damage) per two caster (variable)
Vampiric touch can be Empowered.
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cibet44 wrote: erik542 wrote: cibet44 wrote: erik542 wrote: cibet44 wrote: Hmmm. I'm sticking with my interpretation of Empower in that it only affects damage dealt. At the very least it clears up a lot of issues with the feat. I do think it is the true spirit of the feat as well. If PF or even a 3.5 splat book inadvertently changed this I guess that explains why my group has never had a problem with it to begin with. What about ability damage? Ability drain? Any kind of damage as long as it is variable and random (see my above post). No empowered enervates? I mean there's a reason why they specifically worded intensified spell the way they did. Nope Enervation can not be Empowered. In our games we have always done this.
Another example:
Vampiric touch
Your touch deals 1d6 (random) points of damage (damage) per two caster (variable)
Vampiric touch can be Empowered.
Then your games are not RAW.
erik542 wrote:
Then your games are not RAW. Maybe.
However, assume for a moment I am 100% correct, does that solve many of the issues with the Empower feat? I'm just curious if there is a spell where my interpretation of Empower falls down. I can't think of one that my group has come across but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I'd like to know what to prepare for when (or I have to admit it is becoming if) we move to PF.
cibet44 wrote: I thought I solved this already? No? ;)
So right off the bat this feat only affects spells that cause damage.
Nope, sorry.
You can empower, amongst other things the spell 'mirror image'.
-James
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The way I've always played it is that if the spell effect makes you roll dice you multiply the dice roll by 1.5 then add any other modifiers.
Doesn't matter if its damage, healing, the number of monsters summoned or something else. For +2 spell levels, you're already not casting a higher level, potentially more powerful spell.
My 2 cents.
cibet44 wrote: erik542 wrote:
Then your games are not RAW. Maybe.
However, assume for a moment I am 100% correct, does that solve many of the issues with the Empower feat? I'm just curious if there is a spell where my interpretation of Empower falls down. I can't think of one that my group has come across but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I'd like to know what to prepare for when (or I have to admit it is becoming if) we move to PF. The issue isn't regarding WHAT effects Empower Spell affects, but HOW it affects them. Just as much confusion revolves aorund spells that deal damage, as spells that do other stuff.
I've never seen anyone claim Empower Spell only works on damage spells. The feat is already trash, that virtually no one takes. And that's if you allow it to multiply the entire equation by 1.5, and not just the dice. It's absurdly weak when it only multiplies the dice. Good for a 3000gp Rod, and that's about it.
As is Empower is situationally useful (mostly to Spontaneous Casters) and not generally worth the Feat or +2 spell slot. Empower is even better than Maximize which is a +3 level adjustment.
james maissen wrote: cibet44 wrote: I thought I solved this already? No? ;)
So right off the bat this feat only affects spells that cause damage.
Nope, sorry.
You can empower, amongst other things the spell 'mirror image'.
-James Well not by my interpretation, but either way, why would you? Mirror Image has a max of 8 images and by the time you could Empower it (by having the ability to cast 4th level spells) you are already getting a minimum of 3 and an average of 5. Empower hardly seems like it was geared for this kind of effect to me. It's a blaster power up.
Adam Ormond wrote: The feat is already trash, that virtually no one takes. And that's if you allow it to multiply the entire equation by 1.5, and not just the dice. It's absurdly weak when it only multiplies the dice. Good for a 3000gp Rod, and that's about it. Well I wouldn't say it's trash but I agree the level up tax is a steep price to pay for it.
I do believe what you are saying is why some players have expanded the intended use of it to spells beside damaging ones. Basically to make it seem more economical and worth it. I just don't think that is its intended purpose.
cibet44 wrote: Adam Ormond wrote: The feat is already trash, that virtually no one takes. And that's if you allow it to multiply the entire equation by 1.5, and not just the dice. It's absurdly weak when it only multiplies the dice. Good for a 3000gp Rod, and that's about it. Well I wouldn't say it's trash but I agree the level up tax is a steep price to pay for it.
I do believe what you are saying is why some players have expanded the intended use of it to spells beside damaging ones. Basically to make it seem more economical and worth it. I just don't think that is its intended purpose. So the intended purpose is to be a trap option?
Trap options are cool in competitive games -- D20 isn't supposed to be competitive, and therefore shouldn't have trap options.
Adam Ormond wrote: cibet44 wrote: Adam Ormond wrote: The feat is already trash, that virtually no one takes. And that's if you allow it to multiply the entire equation by 1.5, and not just the dice. It's absurdly weak when it only multiplies the dice. Good for a 3000gp Rod, and that's about it. Well I wouldn't say it's trash but I agree the level up tax is a steep price to pay for it.
I do believe what you are saying is why some players have expanded the intended use of it to spells beside damaging ones. Basically to make it seem more economical and worth it. I just don't think that is its intended purpose. So the intended purpose is to be a trap option?
Trap options are cool in competitive games -- D20 isn't supposed to be competitive, and therefore shouldn't have trap options. I don't know what a "trap option" is, sorry.
I feel the intended use of Empower was to give a Core PHB Evoker the ability to do more damage since they have a limited number of high level damaging evocation spells (in the core PHB). Later on, other classes started to assume Empower worked with anything in an effort to make it useful for them, I just don't think that was the original design.
cibet44 wrote: I do believe what you are saying is why some players have expanded the intended use of it to spells beside damaging ones. Basically to make it seem more economical and worth it. I just don't think that is its intended purpose. First the Intended purpose of the Feat is not to only apply to damage. Various Developers (3.0, 3.5, PF) over the years have used examples of Empower being used on NON-damaging effects. Are you saying the Developers are not using the feat as RAI? Yes the fluff line calls out damage. However we can go through the stat blocks for many feats, spells, ect.. and find fluff text that does not match perfectly with the mechanics.
The empowered healing example. Obviously the developers intend the "damage" to be fluff as they specifically call out that you can not double empower a Cure spell with the healing domain. In all of the discussions and threads about empower over all versions many examples of empower being used with Nondamaging effects have been made. Many developers, writers, etc have commented on these threads and I can not recall a single one every stating or even implying that Empower would not work on Nondamaging spells.
cibet44 wrote:
Well not by my interpretation, but either way, why would you? Mirror Image has a max of 8 images and by the time you could Empower it (by having the ability to cast 4th level spells) you are already getting a minimum of 3 and an average of 5. Empower hardly seems like it was geared for this kind of effect to me. It's a blaster power up.
Well first, as you've been informed, your 'interpretation' is incorrect. Feel free to limit the feat as you see fit in your home games, that's your call.
Here in the rules boards we tend to stay away from such house rules in our discussions however.
As for wanting to, I seem to recall an advanced vrock that had empower spell-like ability for mirror image.
In 3.0 casters would empower the stat boosting spells (which lasted hours back then granting a +2-5 enhancement bonus) which is one of the reasons why the 3.5 version of those spells is a flat +4.
As an aside (towards showing you how your 'interpretation' is just a house rule) in Paizo's Pathfinder, you have the healing domain that increases amount healed by 50% but is prohibited from being empowered. Now healing isn't dealing damage (and if a cure were being used to damage say an undead critter the healing domain wouldn't increase it) so obviously you can empowering healing spells to heal.
-James
Kalyth wrote: The empowered healing example. Obviously the developers intend the "damage" to be fluff as they specifically call out that you can not double empower a Cure spell with the healing domain. Was this in 3.5? I don't remember it, but maybe I am mistaken. I know it exists in PF now, but to me, that is part of the inflation of the the original intent of the feat that I mention above. I don't doubt the assumption that in PF Empower works with anything but I never interpreted 3.0 or 3.5 that way at least not in the core books.
cibet44 wrote:
Was this in 3.5? I don't remember it, but maybe I am mistaken. I know it exists in PF now, but to me, that is part of the inflation of the the original intent of the feat that I mention above. I don't doubt the assumption that in PF Empower works with anything but I never interpreted 3.0 or 3.5 that way at least not in the core books.
Well you've been playing it wrong for many years then. Its happened to lots of people with one rule or another over the years.
Then comes the awkward testing out if you like the 'new' way of dealing with the rule. Pretend you're a child and trying a new food. You need to give it 3 good, honest tries... cause it's a change and people's first reaction to change is 'NO!'.
-James
PS: To answer your question: these domain powers/abilities for the most part are a pathfinder creation. Frankly the healing domain needed a boost as 3e's +1 CL was a joke.
james maissen wrote:
PS: To answer your question: these domain powers/abilities for the most part are a pathfinder creation. Frankly the healing domain needed a boost as 3e's +1 CL was a joke.
Ahh. Right. So it's an addition from PF, well that makes sense to me.
Inflation is not necessarily a bad thing but it can cause other issues. It hasn't been part of my game yet but if I convert to PF it may be. Thanks for the heads up.
cibet44 wrote: Was this in 3.5? I don't remember it, but maybe I am mistaken. I know it exists in PF now, but to me, that is part of the inflation of the the original intent of the feat that I mention above. I don't doubt the assumption that in PF Empower works with anything but I never interpreted 3.0 or 3.5 that way at least not in the core books. It didn't, but there where options for it later. Most notably to me is the Radiant Servant of Pelor in Complete Divine which granted Empower, Maximize, and then both to all the Cure spells, (or Healing Domain spells, depending on your interpretation). There are various sources that have Empowered non-Damaging spells as well from treasure, to stat blocks, Prestige Classes, etc. . .
Beckett wrote: cibet44 wrote: Was this in 3.5? I don't remember it, but maybe I am mistaken. I know it exists in PF now, but to me, that is part of the inflation of the the original intent of the feat that I mention above. I don't doubt the assumption that in PF Empower works with anything but I never interpreted 3.0 or 3.5 that way at least not in the core books. It didn't, but there where options for it later. Most notably to me is the Radiant Servant of Pelor in Complete Divine which granted Empower, Maximize, and then both to all the Cure spells, (or Healing Domain spells, depending on your interpretation). There are various sources that have Empowered non-Damaging spells as well from treasure, to stat blocks, Prestige Classes, etc. . . +1
This Cibet guy is the most polite troll I've ever encountered.
Kudos, sir!
I don't know that I would call them a troll.
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