Lance dealing double damage question

[godsDMit]

When using a lance from the back of a charing mount, a lance automatically does double damage.

Should this be treated as a critical hit, and double all damage and bonuses that would normally get doubled if a critical hit occurs?

[devil.in.mexico13]

Yes if you mean roll two dice, add twice your strength.

No if you mean adding in other critical feats and abilities (Sickening Critical, the Brutal Trait from Orcs of Golarion, or the Magus' Critical Strike discovery)

On a related note, a crit with a lance while mounted is 4 dice + 4*str mod, it wouldn't be six. (Page 12, Pathfinder Core)

[godsDMit]

Do you add other bonuses as well? Bardic music and bonuses granted from spells?

Im thinkin so, but I cant remember.
And yea, I knew about the criticial stacking thing.

[Howie23]

godsDMit wrote:

Do you add other bonuses as well? Bardic music and bonuses granted from spells?

Yes, the weapon's dice and static bonuses all multiply. Dice from additional damage does not. Additional damage would include things like sneak attack and flaming property.

[qutoes]

Howie23 wrote:

godsDMit wrote:

Do you add other bonuses as well? Bardic music and bonuses granted from spells?

Yes, the weapon's dice and static bonuses all multiply. Dice from additional damage does not. Additional damage would include things like sneak attack and flaming property.

Does it stack with vital strike to?

[Kobold Catgirl]

Vital Strike doesn't stack with crits, so no.

[blackbloodtroll]

Who invited the Necromancer?

[Torbyne]

We dont need no invatations. but we would like answers to our questions...

When charging, the character and the mount are both considered to be charging and as such can not combine Vital Strike at all, correct?

And the hit does not multiple any extra dice from things like Bane but does multiple the enhanced static modifiers from things like Bane. Still good?

But even though it follows the no multiplying extra dice rules like a critical, it does not itself count as a critical for activating critical feats or the like. Rule of thumb being go with whatever is worse in the situation?

If i understand the FAQ correctly a lance is considered a two handed weapon for purposes of 1.5 STR and the -1/+3 Power Attack, Do i have it still?

Lastly, could one choose to use two hands on a lance while mounted if they wanted to work in Horn of the Criosphinx to double their strength modifier before multiplying it on a charge?

Thanks for listening!

Torbyne,
Necromaner Adept

[Nefreet]

Torbyne wrote:

When charging, the character and the mount are both considered to be charging and as such can not combine Vital Strike at all, correct?

You cannot combine Vital Strike with a charge. See the FAQ.

Torbyne wrote:

And the hit does not multiply any extra dice from things like Bane but does multiply the enhanced static modifiers from things like Bane. Still good?

Correct.

Torbyne wrote:

But even though it follows the no multiplying extra dice rules like a critical, it does not itself count as a critical for activating critical feats or the like.

You may only apply critical feats and effects upon succeeding at a critical hit.

Torbyne wrote:

Rule of thumb being go with whatever is worse in the situation?

You'll have to clarify what you mean here.

Torbyne wrote:

If i understand the FAQ correctly a lance is considered a two handed weapon for purposes of 1.5 STR and the -1/+3 Power Attack, Do i have it still?

Yup. I believe the Lance is the only such weapon in Pathfinder that is treated in this way.

Torbyne wrote:

Lastly, could one choose to use two hands on a lance while mounted if they wanted to work in Horn of the Criosphinx to double their strength modifier before multiplying it on a charge?

Yikes. I'll leave that one up to someone else. I haven't read any of the discussions on that item yet.

[Torbyne]

What i meant by rule of thumb is the rules for double lance damage mostly mirror the rules for a critical hit but dont actually count as a critical for replenishing pools or activating abilities. I was fairly certain on how it worked but this is my first foray into mounted combat and wanted to be sure going in.

As to the Criospinx, i dont have the book on hand but i thought the feat requires you to use a two handed weapon in two hands but i dont know of any rules that prohibit using a two handed melee weapon while mounted and you can already choose to two hand a regular one handed weapon.

It would mean you could give up a shield and, assuming an 18 strength, your +4 mod bumps to a +8 mod, doubling to +16 when charging on a mount and +24 static strength bonus with a Spirited Charge with a lance and Horn of the Criosphinx. Compared to a regular 1.5 mod of 6, tripled to 18 on a spirited charge. The difference gets even better with higher strength which isnt too hard to do at all.

[The Human Diversion]

Ok, so a crit from a lance while charging with spirited charge is x4 ... what about if the character attacking has a good aura, has cast Litany of Righteousness, and the target is evil?

[Torbyne]

A Spirited Charge with a lance and a crit would be x5; double from charge with a lance, triple from Spirited Charge and a lance's X3 adds two of its own.

[Nefreet]

The Human Diversion wrote:

Ok, so a crit from a lance while charging with spirited charge is x4 ... what about if the character attacking has a good aura, has cast Litany of Righteousness, and the target is evil?

You add multipliers together, you don't multiply them again.

So a weapon that started out as x2, combined with another doubling effect, would then become x3, not x4.

[Torbyne]

Eh? But the lance is a x3 multiplier on its own, while mounted with spirited charge shouldn't a crit be x5? (x1 from base weapon damage +x1 from lance on a charge +x1 from spirited charge +x2 from lance critical modifier)

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Lance Charge, x2 damage
Lance non-charge Critical, x3 damage
So Lance Charge Critical, x4 damage

Lance Spirited Charge, x3 damage
Lance non-charge Critical still x3 damage
So Lance Spirited Charge Critical x5 damage

While there may be a few exceptions lurking about, as a general rule when multiplying damage, you multiple all static bonuses (Strength bonus, Weapon Specialization, magic weapon bonuses, bardic performances, and so on), but no extra dice (sneak attack, flaming weapon property, Vital Strike, and so on).

[Nefreet]

I was answering his question about Litany of Righteousness, and other doubling effects.

I was not incorrect.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the Overlord.

[Torbyne]

Ok, now for the tough part, can you choose to two hand a lance while mounted to use horn of the criospinx for doubling your strength before multiplying it from your spirited charge?

[fretgod99]

Torbyne wrote:

Ok, now for the tough part, can you choose to two hand a lance while mounted to use horn of the criospinx for doubling your strength before multiplying it from your spirited charge?

I don't see why not. The feat requires a charge using a TH weapon. You've done that, so it should apply to increase your STR bonus to damage. That would then be multiplied, as per usual.

[Suma3da]

fretgod99 wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Ok, now for the tough part, can you choose to two hand a lance while mounted to use horn of the criospinx for doubling your strength before multiplying it from your spirited charge?

I don't see why not. The feat requires a charge using a TH weapon. You've done that, so it should apply to increase your STR bonus to damage. That would then be multiplied, as per usual.

The fiddly bit about Horn of Criosphinx and Lances comes with the, "while wielding a two-handed weapon in both hands" part. Normally while mounted you use the lance one handed. However there's a special subset of the two handed rules that let mounted lancers keep the 50% Power Attack bonus while using it one handed. Sure you could just hold the Lance with both hands during the charge, but that would look pretty damn silly in the minds eye.

[Torbyne]

That's exactly the question though, the wording for the lance is you can, not you must. And as mentioned above, you can use anything two handed if you wan to forgo a shield. If it's the difference between a +27 and a +36 modifier though than I don't mind looking silly on a charge. In fact I'd counter that I just charge with proper form while others just do it for the cool factor.

[Kevin Wilson 436]

Please clarify for me, from what I'm reading here:

5th lvl Dragoon mounted, using lance

base attack mods
Att +13, Dmg 1d8 +9

on crit: Dmg 3d8 +27

If charging while mounted:
Att +15, Dmg 2d8 +18

on crit: Dmg 4d8 + 36

If charging while mounted using spirited charge feat:
Att +15, Dmg 3d8 +27

on crit: Dmg 5d8 +45

If charging while mounted using spirited charge and power attack:
Att +13, Dmg 3d8 +39

on crit: Dmg 5d8 +65

Is that correct?

Because to me, the rules read:

Lance does x3 dmg on crit (3d8)
Mounted charge with Lance does double damage (6d8)
Mounted charge with Lance and Spirited Charge does triple damage (9d8). That doesn't sound right, but it's how the rules read to me.

Thanks.

[Nefreet]

Like with regular arithmetic, you don't multiply multipliers. You add them. So those dice totals are correct.

Multiplying.

[Belafon]

Kevin Wilson 436 wrote:

5th lvl Dragoon mounted, using lance

base attack mods
Att +13, Dmg 1d8 +9
.
.
.
If charging while mounted using spirited charge and power attack:
Att +13, Dmg 3d8 +39

on crit: Dmg 5d8 +65

Is that correct?

Almost correct. You shorted yourself a bit of damage on the Power Attacks. At BAB 5 you should get +6 base on the damage with a lance, not +4. So:

If charging while mounted using spirited charge and power attack:
Att +13, Dmg 3d8 +45

on crit: Dmg 5d8 +75

[Kevin Wilson 436]

Thanks!