summoner: eidolon health restoration and summon eidolon questions

[evilbob]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I couldn't find it in a search. Specifically, I am wondering about the interaction between the following aspects of an eidolon:

"When summoned [via ritual], the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally."

So an eidolon does not heal naturally, and summoning the thing doesn't heal it either... Meaning you can only use magic to heal it. Ok, I get that. But if it dies, it can be summoned the next day with 1/2 its hit points. ...Meaning, if you have an eidolon that has less than half its hit points and it's near the end of the day, the most efficient way to heal it is to -kill it outright-?

Surely this makes for some weird role-playing interactions, at best. Plus, it doesn't really make any sense and certainly goes against the intent of the rules. Can anyone shed any light on this issue or is this something best addressed in house rules?

2nd question: Summon Eidolon. "Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally" and "This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage." Ok, so does the summoned eidolon return with 1/2 its HP, no HP, or full HP? And if it's not dead when you summon it, does it get summoned with the "normal" HP or full HP, especially considering the answer to the first part of this question?

Personally, I'm inclined to treat the Summon Eidolon as a summon monster-type spell, meaning it starts with full HP and dies at zero, etc., etc. - especially since it is vulnerable to protection magic and all that. But that doesn't really seem supported in the text. In fact, I have no idea what is supported in the text because you can't really summon it "normally" when it's dead. Any ideas?

[evilbob]

I also have a question about the interaction between this:
"Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score."
...and Life Link. So if my eidolon gets dropped to -5, and it was coup de graced I could actually prevent some or all of the damage from taking it below -13, correct? The problem is, I would never actually want to do this because keeping the eidolon at negative HP is actually a huge hindrance for a summoner and a boon for the enemy. While the eidolon is out (but useless), the summoner cannot summon monsters with their spell-like ability; they'd have to de-summon the eidolon (a standard action) to be able to do so. (Not to mention many DMs do not typically target creatures that are no longer threats, meaning this would never likely come up.) And this is compounded by the problem above, where a summoner post-battle would do better to re-summon and kill off their eidolon in order to heal the thing efficiently!

I can see it being useful if the eidolon went from positive HP to -13 in one hit, but in that case the summoner would likely have to give up a massive chunk of HP (14 HP at least) to keep the eidolon up, and that's probably not worth it - not when you have so many summon monsters to fall back on, and damage to the summoner is technically worse (since if he drops the eidolon also drops). So I guess I just wonder: what is the point of allowing the eidolon to drop into negative HP at all, and if that is allowed, what is the point of Life Link? I'd rather house rule eidolons to work more like summoned creatures and pop at zero - that's much more useful.

[Gjorbjond]

1. Yes
2. It follows the exact same rules as when you summon it with the ritual.
3. Because of this many summoners get Diehard for their eidolons so they can still be useful at negative HP.

[David Thomassen]

It was Erreta'd that the Life Link works when the Eidolon's hitpoints go below zero. I will try and find a link for you.

[evilbob]

Gjorbjond wrote:

2. It follows the exact same rules as when you summon it with the ritual.

That's just the problem, though; if that were true, then summoning it via the spell when it was dead would bring it back... dead. (At which point it would disappear again.) It doesn't regain 1/2 its HP until the next day. Why put the caveat in the spell that you can use it to summon an eidolon that has died of damage when all you get is a dead eidolon? Something doesn't make sense.

Gjorbjond wrote:

3. Because of this many summoners get Diehard for their eidolons so they can still be useful at negative HP.

I've seen this suggestion and I have to say it just doesn't seem practical at early levels, when you need a solution the most. If you start at level 1, it will be at least level 3 before you can take the feat, and then level 6 before you can take a feat you actually need to make your eidolon effective (like weapon proficiency or combat reflexes, etc.). How many games even -make- it past level 6?

It's especially bad at level 1 when your eidolon has 6 HP and doesn't die until -13 HP. It's dead weight far longer than it is useful.

David Thomassen wrote:

It was Erreta'd that the Life Link works when the Eidolon's hitpoints go below zero. I will try and find a link for you.

That certainly would help make Life Link useful. It still doesn't solve the problem of having a lot of dead weight between 0 and -13 (when you can't afford to save it) and why it's more efficient to kill the eidolon to heal it, but that's great to hear.

[evilbob]

evilbob wrote:

That certainly would help make Life Link useful.

Actually, I changed my mind... Given than healing is typically a worse tactical choice at any given moment than nearly anything else, I think the fact that an eidolon doesn't disappear until -Con is technically a negative class feature. Someone suggested it seems more like an afterthought designed to help summoners out but actually hurts them, and I agree.

[Varthanna]

My memory is poor, but didnt the original playtest eidolon go away at 0 HP? I think that would explain Life Link's wordage, in any case. But yes, there are numerous flaws with the eidolon as written. There are two different threads about eidolons and ability damage (and dont even start with if they get knocked down to 0 con)

[evilbob]

Varthanna wrote:

But yes, there are numerous flaws with the eidolon as written. There are two different threads about eidolons and ability damage (and dont even start with if they get knocked down to 0 con)

Oh, I know. On one hand it seems like they reaaaally should have added "and all non-permanent conditions are erased" when you bring your eidolon back after being slain. Except of course, then you really WOULD want to kill it constantly just to fix it up. And then what's the point of Purified Calling? On the other hand - what are you supposed to do if your main class feature becomes ineffective before level 10 - wait it out? That just seems particularly harsh...

[Gjorbjond]

evilbob wrote:

That's just the problem, though; if that were true, then summoning it via the spell when it was dead would bring it back... dead. (At which point it would disappear again.) It doesn't regain 1/2 its HP until the next day. Why put the caveat in the spell that you can use it to summon an eidolon that has died of damage when all you get is a dead eidolon? Something doesn't make sense.

There are two parts to the eidolon section.

1. If it dies it has 1/2 HP when next summoned.
2. You can't use the ritual to summon it until the next day.

The spell bypasses the second condition only. A slain eidolon will come back with 1/2 hp when summoned by the spell.

David Thomassen wrote:

It was Erreta'd that the Life Link works when the Eidolon's hitpoints go below zero. I will try and find a link for you.

You're thinking of the Life Bond change that's in the APG FAQ. Life Link still works as written.

[Gjorbjond]

evilbob wrote:

Oh, I know. On one hand it seems like they reaaaally should have added "and all non-permanent conditions are erased" when you bring your eidolon back after being slain. Except of course, then you really WOULD want to kill it constantly just to fix it up. And then what's the point of Purified Calling? On the other hand - what are you supposed to do if your main class feature becomes ineffective before level 10 - wait it out? That just seems particularly harsh...

A scroll of Purified Calling isn't that expensive. Even so, if fighting shadows, wraiths, vampires, etc. the I'll dismiss the eidolon and use the Summon Monster SLA.

[evilbob]

Gjorbjond wrote:

There are two parts to the eidolon section.

1. If it dies it has 1/2 HP when next summoned.
2. You can't use the ritual to summon it until the next day.

The spell bypasses the second condition only. A slain eidolon will come back with 1/2 hp when summoned by the spell.

Ah, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for spelling it out for me; I didn't see that connection before.

[Lord_Nikkon]

evilbob wrote:

Gjorbjond wrote:

There are two parts to the eidolon section.

1. If it dies it has 1/2 HP when next summoned.
2. You can't use the ritual to summon it until the next day.

The spell bypasses the second condition only. A slain eidolon will come back with 1/2 hp when summoned by the spell.

Ah, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for spelling it out for me; I didn't see that connection before.

can we get an official confirmation on this? I have a GM that doesn't accept forum answers as a ruling, but if its got a Paizo Official responding, that should be official enough for him I would think.