Hubble, Bubble, toil and trouble (A Guide to Witches)


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5th level spells are here (again sorry about taking so long have been super busy with work and my own campaign).

5th-Level Witch Spells

Baleful Polymorph**** - Essentially a save or die in the form of a save or lose. Target makes a save or becomes a harmless animal, then makes another save or loses all magical and supernatural abilities. All of this with the duration of permanent. Perfect finisher for the witch hexes.

Blight** - Hurt a plant very badly. If you are fighting a giant plant this is probably a decent choice, otherwise this is a good way to tick off the party druid.

Break Enchantment** - Pretty useful in the event that you find a cursed item or the party is subjugated to some sort of unwilling enchantment or transmutation (like baleful polymorph).

Cloudkill**- This sounds pretty cool, but the fact that it moves is usually a hindrance than an asset. I love the partial effect even with a successful save. If it were a disease effect I would rate it higher, but poison immunity is just all to common at this level and up.

Contact Other Plane* - Know what is worse than losing points in your primary stat? This spell. Don't take it.

Contagion, Greater** - It has use, but you can do what this spell does with earlier spells (though this one has a lot more options). Give an enemy a disease with a successful touch attack and a failed save.

Curse, Major*** - Gets rid of the touch range making it a better spell for combat. A good way to debuff an enemy in combat (though it gets a save and SR does apply).

Curse of Disgust* - The above spell is superior is a number of ways.

Dominate Person*** - A buffed up charm person. Making commands that oppose a targets nature give the subject an extra save. (rating may drop depending on how your DM views this). A pretty good spell to have your very own puppet.

Feeblemind**** - Wreck casters of all kinds (arcane especially). Ruins all spellcasting ability and gives a -4 to the saves of those who cast arcane spells.

Hold Monster** - A good spell, but a pretty high level for the effect. It is essentially a SoD on one enemy, but it affects will so more of the same.

Inflict Critical Wounds* - Want to do something not useless with a touch attack? Scroll up to fleshworm infestation

Magic Jar**** - Awesome spell. Clear entire rooms with no danger to your allies or yourself. As far as I can tell you still have access to all your hexes too making this spell that much better. Is there a rating better than blue?

Major Creation* - The innovative will find some killer use for this spell, but I really can't see anything worthwhile.

Mark of Justice* - Bestow curse with 100x the casting time, you have to write on the target and it has to be willing or restrained. No saving throw, but for a 5th level spell your kidding right? This is crap.

Mind Fog*** - Ask your DM if you know who is affected and who isn't, if so this is blue. Soften up a group of enemies at range on their will saves and wisdom checks severely. For your will heavy list, this is awesome.

Overland Flight*** - Afraid of the monster charging you while you are within 30 feet? No problem if you are in the air (typically) and get a substantial bonus on fly checks. Redundant with the fly hex, but a much longer duration and you may want that hex for something else.

Plague Carrier* - This could have been such a cool spell for an animal companion or monk, but the onset time (1d3 days) killed it.

Possess Object* - You can still use hexes while in the objects body as far as I can tell, but I really dislike leaving my body under any circumstances.

Prying Eyes** - Personally I prefer Arcane eye this spell just has too many little drawbacks for me to use it (can't direct eyes, they don't get special vision, they have to report back for you to recieve info, etc.).

Reincarnate* - I wouldn't use this those 2 permanent negative levels really hurt and getting a non beneficial race (not to mention a hindering race) for your current class could put the nail in the coffin for a character (pun not intended). Plus you will need to waste additional resources (that are unavailable to the witch) to even see if the character wants to be reincarnated. Wait one level for raise dead if this is a concern.

Rest Eternal* - Stop a creature from being able to be resurrected. Is this typically a problem in your campaign? If so change the rating accordingly as for most campaigns in general, this barely applies.

Secret Chest** - Has some material component cost, but is a good way to store very important items and heavy war spoils.

Smug Narcissism* - Nowhere near a 5th level slot. Just simply not worth it for the effect it provides.

Summon Monster V*** - A little less versatility, but still a good spell overall.

Symbol of Pain* - Usually symbol spells can be ok for the creative, but this one is like evil eye for attack roles and skill checks and ability checks. The last two do not come up a ton in combat, but are certainly present at times. I would just stick with evil eye this is too redundant and minor for the level of the spell (not to mention the material component costs and difficulty with the trigger).

Symbol of Scrying* - Make sure you know when the thieves guild is robbing your house when you are out on an adventure. You could stack this with a quick teleport, but if you really want to just avoid this I recommend sticking your valuables in the secret chest.

Telepathic Bond*** - Awesome utility spell that has a decent duration and allows communication over any distance.

Teleport*** - Great utility spell with the mishaps being super circumstantial and not all that bad. Great way to get around the world.

Waves of Fatigue** - No saving throw so that is good, but fatigue is not all that impressive. Would be pretty good if you could stack with regular fatigue, but ray of exhaustion after the fact will still do nicely.

Dark Archive

pipedreamsam wrote:

5th level spells are here (again sorry about taking so long have been super busy with work and my own campaign).

5th-Level Witch Spells

Cloudkill**- This sounds pretty cool, but the fact that it moves is usually a hindrance than an asset. I love the partial effect even with a successful save. If it were a disease effect I would rate it higher, but poison immunity is just all to common at this level and up.
This is one of the best AoE kill spells out there. Send it in front of you and have it kill or badly injure everything in front of you for 11 minutes. And it's CON damage so even if they live through it they take 1-2 HP/Level each round they are in it.
NASTY, NASTY spell. 3 stars

Contagion, Greater** - It has use, but you can do what this spell does with earlier spells (though this one has a lot more options). Give an enemy a disease with a successful touch attack and a failed save.
This is a city/army/group killing spell. Drop it on an enemey they suffer the effects immediately (and can't cure it without high level magic) and then everyone they come in contact with gets it and they can't cure it without magic. 1 Diseased rat thrown into a city street is death for that city, maybe that whole kingdom.3 stars (4 in kingmaker type games)

Curse of Disgust* - The above spell is superior is a number of ways.
This spell is a permanent -2 to all die rolls with no save whenever you decide to invoke it on your target. 2-3 stars

Major Creation* - The innovative will find some killer use for this spell, but I really can't see anything worthwhile.
[]Same reasoning we gave for minor creation but better duration and no limit to what you can create (bridges, wallas statues, etc) 3-4 stars based on your creativity.

Possess Object* - You can still use hexes while in the objects body as far as I can tell, but I really dislike leaving my body under any circumstances.
Awesome spell, you effectively take control of a construct (and all the perks there) PLUS you get to use construct points from the Animate Object spell to manipulate the body you are in. Flying shark statues with lasers attached to their heads here I come. 4 stars.

Prying Eyes** - Personally I prefer Arcane eye this spell just has too many little drawbacks for me to use it (can't direct eyes, they don't get special vision, they have to report back for you to recieve info, etc.).
It's the equivalent of sending 15 copies of yourself to scout out every nook and cranny within 1 mile of you. An amazing spy/trap detector/treasure hunter spell. Best on a scroll but awesome for learning everything about the castle/tower/fort/cave/etc. you just decided to assault. 3 stars.

Reincarnate* - I wouldn't use this those 2 permanent negative levels really hurt and getting a non beneficial race (not to mention a hindering race) for your current class could put the nail in the coffin for a character (pun not intended). Plus you will need to waste additional resources (that are unavailable to the witch) to even see if the character wants to be reincarnated. Wait one level for raise dead if this is a concern.
Unlike raise dead this works if the creature died from old age or if they were missing limbs, eyes etc. It also works on targets afflicted with magical or incurable diseases.
Most importantly it works on UNDEAD and is the cheapest way to return someone from undeath. All things that Raise dead can't do and it's tons cheaper as well.
3 stars (4 in an undead heavy campaign)

Smug Narcissism* - Nowhere near a 5th level slot. Just simply not worth it for the effect it provides.
Cast it on an evoker or raging 2hd barbarian and say that again. The target spends all his effort on defense instead of offense. Shuts down blasters completely and any heavy hitter the opponents have stops attacking everyone. Massive debuff if you target it correctly.
3 stars.

Symbol of Pain* - Usually symbol spells can be ok for the creative, but this one is like evil eye for attack roles and skill checks and ability checks. The last two do not come up a ton in combat, but are certainly present at times. I would just stick with evil eye this is too redundant and minor for the level of the spell (not to mention the material component costs and difficulty with the trigger).
This is better then evil eye (especially if you scribe it on a book to trigger at will) since it's an AoE, evil eye effect that lasts an hour that hits attacks & skill checks (acrobatics for tumbling rogues, Intimidate for dazzling display, perception for detecting traps/invisibility, etc).
4 stars.

Symbol of Scrying* - Make sure you know when the thieves guild is robbing your house when you are out on an adventure. You could stack this with a quick teleport, but if you really want to just avoid this I recommend sticking your valuables in the secret chest.
Don't know where the thieves guild is or want to find something that was stolen. Put this on it and let it get stolen. You always know where your belongings are and makes a heck of a scry and fry focus.
2 stars.


pipedreamsam wrote:

5th level spells are here (again sorry about taking so long have been super busy with work and my own campaign).

5th level spells have now been added to the guide. Apologies for the delay. Thanks again to pipedreamsam and Mathwie Ap Niall for their recent contributions.

Witch Guide


screech is mising from 3rd level. I love it. you need to be within 30ft of the action anyway and this is great, esp when you have been ambushed and the battlefield is compact


thenovalord wrote:
screech is mising from 3rd level. I love it. you need to be within 30ft of the action anyway and this is great, esp when you have been ambushed and the battlefield is compact

Screech is already in the guide under 3rd level spells. The spell has its uses as you've pointed out but all it does is provoke an attack of opportunity. I think at 3rd level we should be looking to get "better bang for our buck" so to speak.


Agree mostly with Mat, but for 2 things.

At 1000 gold per cast, Symbol of Pain just isn't worth it. It's great, but it's too expensive to be a 4-star spell.

Likewise, you have better things to do with level 5 spells than a single-target will-save-or-inconvenienced (Smug Narcissism). That spell sucks. You may as well hex the guy and put him to sleep.

-Cross

Dark Archive

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Crosswind wrote:

Agree mostly with Mat, but for 2 things.

At 1000 gold per cast, Symbol of Pain just isn't worth it. It's great, but it's too expensive to be a 4-star spell.

Likewise, you have better things to do with level 5 spells than a single-target will-save-or-inconvenienced (Smug Narcissism). That spell sucks. You may as well hex the guy and put him to sleep.

-Cross

You're making the same incorrect assumption about the symbol spells everyone does. You assume you actually CAST it during an adventure.

Here's the basic trick, you inscribe it inside a book and then use PERMANENCY to make it last forever. From that point anytime you want to use the symbol you just open the book and point it at your targets.
You and your party are immune to it (declared when scribing the book) so you know have a mobile symbol spell you can unleash as a move action once per hour.

Smug Narcissism is an OK spell, it has the advantage of better range and duration over any hex and is really useful against targets that are immune to your hexes.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

Agree mostly with Mat, but for 2 things.

At 1000 gold per cast, Symbol of Pain just isn't worth it. It's great, but it's too expensive to be a 4-star spell.
-Cross

You're making the same incorrect assumption about the symbol spells everyone does. You assume you actually CAST it during an adventure.

Here's the basic trick, you inscribe it inside a book and then use PERMANENCY to make it last forever. From that point anytime you want to use the symbol you just open the book and point it at your targets.
You and your party are immune to it (declared when scribing the book) so you know have a mobile symbol spell you can unleash as a move action once per hour.

At 13th level for another 12,500 gp, unless I'm missing something. That also requires a wizard or sorceror, since permanancy isn't on the witch spell list.

Which means, since the mage casting permanancy has to cast the spell he's making permanent, there's no point in the witch taking it. He could use a scroll, I suppose, or the witch could use a scroll of permanancy, but at that point just skip learning the spell and get a scroll of it.

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

Agree mostly with Mat, but for 2 things.

At 1000 gold per cast, Symbol of Pain just isn't worth it. It's great, but it's too expensive to be a 4-star spell.
-Cross

You're making the same incorrect assumption about the symbol spells everyone does. You assume you actually CAST it during an adventure.

Here's the basic trick, you inscribe it inside a book and then use PERMANENCY to make it last forever. From that point anytime you want to use the symbol you just open the book and point it at your targets.
You and your party are immune to it (declared when scribing the book) so you know have a mobile symbol spell you can unleash as a move action once per hour.

At 13th level for another 12,500 gp, unless I'm missing something. That also requires a wizard or sorceror, since permanancy isn't on the witch spell list.

Which means, since the mage casting permanancy has to cast the spell he's making permanent, there's no point in the witch taking it. He could use a scroll, I suppose, or the witch could use a scroll of permanancy, but at that point just skip learning the spell and get a scroll of it.

Actually you can do it at 9th level, UMD as a class skill is nice and scrolls of permanency are cheap.

Overall you are spending less then 15K to get a permanent magical item that imposes a -4 to all die rolls (except damage and saves) from everyone within 60 feet of you for an hour. Plus you can trigger this every 10 minutes (so EVERY fight) and it stacks with your evil eye hex.
This is a massive de-buffing spell and knock it at your own risk.

Please, take my money I want 2 of em.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Actually you can do it at 9th level, UMD as a class skill is nice and scrolls of permanency are cheap.

Overall you are spending less then 15K to get a permanent magical item that imposes a -4 to all die rolls (except damage and saves) from everyone within 60 feet of you for an hour. Plus you can trigger this every 10 minutes (so EVERY fight) and it stacks with your evil eye hex.
This is a massive de-buffing spell and knock it at your own risk.

Please, take my money I want 2 of em.

Why wait till 9th level then? Just get a scroll of the Symbol as well as soon as you can afford the 15K and have the UMD to reliably pull it off.

No need to be a witch or even a caster for that matter.

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Actually you can do it at 9th level, UMD as a class skill is nice and scrolls of permanency are cheap.

Overall you are spending less then 15K to get a permanent magical item that imposes a -4 to all die rolls (except damage and saves) from everyone within 60 feet of you for an hour. Plus you can trigger this every 10 minutes (so EVERY fight) and it stacks with your evil eye hex.
This is a massive de-buffing spell and knock it at your own risk.

Please, take my money I want 2 of em.

Why wait till 9th level then? Just get a scroll of the Symbol as well as soon as you can afford the 15K and have the UMD to reliably pull it off.

No need to be a witch or even a caster for that matter.

You wait till 9th since that is (according to the WBL guidelines) about the earliest you can afford to spend that much for a scroll.

Now if you are finished trying to argue with every recommendation we make in this guide and actually have something to contribute please do so, otherwise I believe it's time to move on from this particular distraction.


I have now included the Scar Hex in the guide after copying comments made by Mathwei ap Niall and mdt earlier in this thread.

Witch's Guide


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Actually you can do it at 9th level, UMD as a class skill is nice and scrolls of permanency are cheap.

Overall you are spending less then 15K to get a permanent magical item that imposes a -4 to all die rolls (except damage and saves) from everyone within 60 feet of you for an hour. Plus you can trigger this every 10 minutes (so EVERY fight) and it stacks with your evil eye hex.
This is a massive de-buffing spell and knock it at your own risk.

Please, take my money I want 2 of em.

Why wait till 9th level then? Just get a scroll of the Symbol as well as soon as you can afford the 15K and have the UMD to reliably pull it off.

No need to be a witch or even a caster for that matter.

You wait till 9th since that is (according to the WBL guidelines) about the earliest you can afford to spend that much for a scroll.

Now if you are finished trying to argue with every recommendation we make in this guide and actually have something to contribute please do so, otherwise I believe it's time to move on from this particular distraction.

It's probably worth mentioning that your 12.5k investment goes down the drain with a targeted dispel magic.

If your DM is a teddy bear and never does this to you if you're using tons of permanencied stuff, there's really a lot of spells that are pretty mediocre (a-la symbol of pain) which become a lot better.

-Cross (Why permanency is pretty darn over-rated.)


Crosswind wrote:

It's probably worth mentioning that your 12.5k investment goes down the drain with a targeted dispel magic.

If your DM is a teddy bear and never does this to you if you're using tons of permanencied stuff, there's really a lot of spells that are pretty mediocre (a-la symbol of pain) which become a lot better.

-Cross (Why permanency is pretty darn over-rated.)

Question: how is the enemy caster determining preemptively you've got a live symbol in a book in say, a handy haversack?

It should be immune to most or all detection while in there, and after you've busted it out, they'd be wasting an action just to spite you by dispelling it instead of trying to take you out of the fight.

So its not a case of a DM being a softball DM, it'd require your DM to run creatures as suicide item-nukers who take implausable actions because they know they dont have to exist more than one scene...


KrispyXIV wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

It's probably worth mentioning that your 12.5k investment goes down the drain with a targeted dispel magic.

If your DM is a teddy bear and never does this to you if you're using tons of permanencied stuff, there's really a lot of spells that are pretty mediocre (a-la symbol of pain) which become a lot better.

-Cross (Why permanency is pretty darn over-rated.)

Question: how is the enemy caster determining preemptively you've got a live symbol in a book in say, a handy haversack?

It should be immune to most or all detection while in there, and after you've busted it out, they'd be wasting an action just to spite you by dispelling it instead of trying to take you out of the fight.

So its not a case of a DM being a softball DM, it'd require your DM to run creatures as suicide item-nukers who take implausable actions because they know they dont have to exist more than one scene...

The same way any enemy knows preemptively what the group is capable of. Divination magic can scry on you while you're writing the symbol, survivors can report what they saw, etc. etc.

Though I'm not inclined to dispel the book. I'm more inclined to sunder the book that the symbol is on.

Or, because I'm a sadistic and unforgiving bastard unleash books of death on my own.

Dark Archive

TarkXT wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:
Crosswind wrote:

It's probably worth mentioning that your 12.5k investment goes down the drain with a targeted dispel magic.

If your DM is a teddy bear and never does this to you if you're using tons of permanencied stuff, there's really a lot of spells that are pretty mediocre (a-la symbol of pain) which become a lot better.

-Cross (Why permanency is pretty darn over-rated.)

Question: how is the enemy caster determining preemptively you've got a live symbol in a book in say, a handy haversack?

It should be immune to most or all detection while in there, and after you've busted it out, they'd be wasting an action just to spite you by dispelling it instead of trying to take you out of the fight.

So its not a case of a DM being a softball DM, it'd require your DM to run creatures as suicide item-nukers who take implausable actions because they know they dont have to exist more than one scene...

The same way any enemy knows preemptively what the group is capable of. Divination magic can scry on you while you're writing the symbol, survivors can report what they saw, etc. etc.

Though I'm not inclined to dispel the book. I'm more inclined to sunder the book that the symbol is on.

Or, because I'm a sadistic and unforgiving bastard unleash books of death on my own.

Well considering the only way that tactic would work is for:

A) A spellcaster to ready an action every round to dispel the book when it's drawn (He can't target it when it's in a backpack and the only time it's out of the pack is when it's actively being used {Free action to draw from haversack, move action to open and use it, standard action to put it away}) and
B). Succeed on a dispel check against it while everyone is pounding the stuffing out of him since while he's readying that action he can't do ANYTHING else.
This particular possibility is so low on the probability list that I feel comfortable rating this as I do.

On the off chance that someone succeeds on this one in a million action then we simply beat the 12K gold out of them to make another one.
It's only money after all and this is the risk you take with ANY spell or item.


There's other flaws to the trick as well.

For one drawing an items from the sack is a move action, not a free action. Unless you have some means of doing otherwise which I did not see. Glove of storing would work for example.

2nd is that the items doesn't grow in level with you and will have to be upgraded periodically. The DC and caster levels will remain the same from the point you create it onwards. On top of this are the attunement issues. You have to fix it or choose not to use it every time a new character joins the group or you have allied npc's nearby. It's easy to forget that your hard work is attuned only to a select group of people and beyond that it's an indiscriminate device of torment.

Third has more to do with the flaws behind the spell then the trick itself. Mind affecting means that many opponents won't notice or care, the fort save those that might be hit hardest by it (meleers) will also have the highest chance of saving against it and spellresistance particularly when combined with point 2 means that a lot of enemies will find your symbol a delightful read. Those who don't have a high chance also aren't super bothered by it since they aren't making attack rolls from the start. Let's not forget that the enemy has to actually "see" the symbol blind opponents will be unaffected by it. That's a minor point however.

Other symbol spells suffer the same issues or more depending on what's being done with them. Ultimately you could be spending that 12k gold on better things like a rod of extend metamagic.

Dark Archive

TarkXT wrote:

There's other flaws to the trick as well.

For one drawing an items from the sack is a move action, not a free action. Unless you have some means of doing otherwise which I did not see. Glove of storing would work for example.

I did specifically state Haversack in that example and drawing items from a haversack is a move action, opening it is a free action and storing it again is a standard action. Had my sequence written incorrectly but the actions are the same.

Quote:
2nd is that the items doesn't grow in level with you and will have to be upgraded periodically. The DC and caster levels will remain the same from the point you create it onwards. On top of this are the attunement issues. You have to fix it or choose not to use it every time a new character joins the group or you have allied npc's nearby. It's easy to forget that your hard work is attuned only to a select group of people and beyond that it's an indiscriminate device of torment.

Or you could just use the password option that all Symbols have. Any time you get a new member teach them the password. As for the DC, so what. Every spell in the game has that issue, this isn't supposed to be the end all move it's just a nice trick that you can do.

Quote:
Third has more to do with the flaws behind the spell then the trick itself. Mind affecting means that many opponents won't notice or care, the fort save those that might be hit hardest by it (meleers) will also have the highest chance of saving against it and spellresistance particularly when combined with point 2 means that a lot of enemies will find your symbol a delightful read. Those who don't have a high chance also aren't super bothered by it since they aren't making attack rolls from the start. Let's not forget that the enemy has to actually "see" the symbol blind opponents will be unaffected by it. That's a minor point however.

And it's an incorrect point too. You don't have to see a rune to be affected by it, the see/read/pass through/etc are triggering options. I am personally doing the triggering by opening the book and anyone within 60' of me when it goes off is affected by it.

As for point one again I say so what. Like all spells in the game it's not going to work on everyone every time, this is just a good trick if you have several opponents to target. As for the penalty it's got something for everyone, Melee'ers take a -4 to hit, skill monkeys take a -4 to all skills (intimidate, feint, stealth, etc) and casters get a -4 to ability checks (concentration checks, spell durations/effects, etc).

Quote:
Other symbol spells suffer the same issues or more depending on what's being done with them. Ultimately you could be spending that 12k gold on better things like a rod of extend metamagic.

Sure you could, you could also spend it on a 12,000 flagons of mead. This recommendation is not about being the only choice, just that if you want to do it this is a good and valid option.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Or you could just use the password option that all Symbols have. Any time you get a new member teach them the password. As for the DC, so what. Every spell in the game has that issue, this isn't supposed to be the end all move it's just a nice trick that you can do.

It's a trick that cost you 12k and a full round action to do.

Also ability checks are not caster level nor concentration checks. So unless you really don't want that wizard makign his spellcraft roll it doesn't make much difference to him.

Beyond that the password option also amuses me a great deal. It works for player characters, of course, but you still run into the npc issues. The conversations between yon wielder of the book and the druid will start to get hilarious when the druid clmaly explains that he'll have to use a password like HARRAAARRRRRGGGto make sure his animal companion doesn't get wracked with severe pain everytime the witch shows everyone his latest edition. We're not going to get into summoned creatures or innocent bystanders.

The trouble with this trick is that it's not so much a trick as a heavy investment of time and resources.

By your response people shouldn't care that they're spending 12,000k of gold plus on a trick that uses up someoens entire turn, is unreliable, doesn't scale with you, and has the potential to cause as much harm as good. And that's why the spell has a four star rating according to you?

It's a neat trick certainly but their are cheaper and less involved ways of getting that kind of effect.

Their are criteria that make a spell good from an optimization perspective and the symbol spells manage to not meet any of them.

Dark Archive

TarkXT wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Or you could just use the password option that all Symbols have. Any time you get a new member teach them the password. As for the DC, so what. Every spell in the game has that issue, this isn't supposed to be the end all move it's just a nice trick that you can do.

It's a trick that cost you 12k and a full round action to do.

Also ability checks are not caster level nor concentration checks. So unless you really don't want that wizard makign his spellcraft roll it doesn't make much difference to him.

Beyond that the password option also amuses me a great deal. It works for player characters, of course, but you still run into the npc issues. The conversations between yon wielder of the book and the druid will start to get hilarious when the druid clmaly explains that he'll have to use a password like HARRAAARRRRRGGGto make sure his animal companion doesn't get wracked with severe pain everytime the witch shows everyone his latest edition. We're not going to get into summoned creatures or innocent bystanders.

The trouble with this trick is that it's not so much a trick as a heavy investment of time and resources.

By your response people shouldn't care that they're spending 12,000k of gold plus on a trick that uses up someoens entire turn, is unreliable, doesn't scale with you, and has the potential to cause as much harm as good. And that's why the spell has a four star rating according to you?

It's a neat trick certainly but their are cheaper and less involved ways of getting that kind of effect.

Their are criteria that make a spell good from an optimization perspective and the symbol spells manage to not meet any of them.

First if you take a look in the Core rule book under ability checks you will see this wonderful little paragraph:

CRB pg15 wrote:


Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.

This particular Symbol applies a -4 to every check that relies upon one of those stats. Now how do you roll a Concentration check, 1D20 + caster level + ability Mod. And many, many spells are modified based on your ability score mod.

So yes it does affect concentration checks and duration/effects for spells.

Second, if the NPC's can't or won't follow simple instructions then so what, they take the penalty. And really that's all it is, a simple -4 penalty for an hour or two. No death, no permanent impairment, just a little pain and a -4 penalty. Deal with it or get out of the adventuring game.

Finally you're complaining that you have to spend gold on this trick to work ? The entire point of the game is to kill stuff, take their cash and spend it on new tricks and toys for you to use.
As for the rest of that comment casting ANY OFFENSIVE SPELL hits all those marks. Every spell fails to scale with you, doesn't always affect the target and can cause as much harm as good if you don't use it right.

If you have decided you don't like the spell and don't want to use it that's perfectly fine but some of us consider the risk worth it considering that this combo patches a massive hole in the Witch's spell arsenal (Lack of AoE debuff/effect spells).


Math, none of us are claiming that the symbol trick isn't fine. But you have to spend 12,000 gold to do it.

That's a lot of gold. That makes this spell a lot worse than spells which don't require 12,000 gold. It also has some other things which make it worse - namely, that it can get dispelled like all silly permanency tricks.

Given that you do have a decent number of save-or-@#$%'d AOE spells (Stinking cloud, confusion, fear, Tentacles to some extent), this one isn't that awesome, even if your DM lets you get away with it.

It's like a 2-3 star spell. It's not 4. You are the only one who thinks it is.

-Cross


What happens if the book gets destroyed by say a fireball spell?

Side note: sorry about suddenly stopping after 5th level spells I plan on getting to the rest, just not right now. School is just starting for me again and I have very little time.


pipedreamsam wrote:
Side note: sorry about suddenly stopping after 5th level spells I plan on getting to the rest, just not right now. School is just starting for me again and I have very little time.

Relax. There's no time limit on this. Thanks for your contributions so far.

On another note, I'm also hoping Mathwei has some input on advanced familiars at some stage as he seems to know a fair bit about them.

Dark Archive

Crosswind wrote:

Math, none of us are claiming that the symbol trick isn't fine. But you have to spend 12,000 gold to do it.

That's a lot of gold. That makes this spell a lot worse than spells which don't require 12,000 gold. It also has some other things which make it worse - namely, that it can get dispelled like all silly permanency tricks.

Given that you do have a decent number of save-or-@#$%'d AOE spells (Stinking cloud, confusion, fear, Tentacles to some extent), this one isn't that awesome, even if your DM lets you get away with it.

It's like a 2-3 star spell. It's not 4. You are the only one who thinks it is.

-Cross

The money concern you all are expressing is really confusing to me. Yes it costs (13500 gold actually) but at the level where you are first supposed to actually be able to pull this trick off (13th level for the permanency) it accounts for about 9% of your normal WBL. Since it is a party tool it'll cost the average member of a 4 man group (split it 4 ways it would cost you about 3 grand).

Or to put it even simpler it costs SLIGHTLY more than the average reward of a single encounter (11,000 gold) for your level, this is about what you'd spend for your Goggles of Night to give you Darkvision, it's not that much cash.

I really fail to see why anyone would actually care about the cost.


Wait now it's a top rated spell that you're not going to use until 4 levels after you get it?

I thought you were going to use it at 9th level, since you'd have to use permanency from a scroll anyway.

I was trying to stay out of this, but I failed my will save

I'd check with my GM for rulings on exactly how the triggering, atunement, and passwords work as well.

If everyone has to speak the password before the effect is triggered, clever enemies might copy them for example.

It's also not at all clear that a concentration check is an ability check. It's not entirely clear exactly what an ability check is. The quote you cited refers to ability score penalties not ability check penalties.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


First if you take a look in the Core rule book under ability checks you will see this wonderful little paragraph:

I've heard conflicting arguments that say otherwise.

And what simple instructions are you telling these NPC's? Don't stand in my 60ft radius while I open this book? Are you going to yell at summoned creatures to scream out the password in the middle of combat?

"You there! Druids animal companion! Say this password!"

You didn't really solve the issue here you brushed it under the rug and blamed other people. Yeah, that'll sit well with the party's paladin.

Adn yes I'm complaining I have to spend gold for this trick to work. I'm spending the equivalent of two raise deads to get this result.

As to other spells, you'll note a lot of offensives spells get rated very low. However some don't hit all the complaints I made about this one.

For example let's take a loot at a favorite control spell: SLOW.

slow:

CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of molasses)

EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets one creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. Creatures affected by this spell are staggered and can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature's jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

Multiple slow effects don't stack. Slow counters and dispels haste.

So yes, it takes a save, and it has spell resistance. Most offensive spells do. However, it's free, it's a standard action (your trick takes a full round to accomplish completely) doesn't get destroyed by stray fireballs and has no key words (mind affecting for example) that makes things immune to it. This is a 3-4 star rated spell that remains relevant all the way to 20 because the effect it does is simply that devastating. That's the difference between a good offenseive spell and a terrible one.


the main challenge I am having now is my familiar. My gm likes to target it. I have found that flying ones are good but I would have to suggest upping the anti on that one and going with an air elemental. Flies and can become a whirl wind making itnearly impossible to take out. That also give you one more control aspect in the field.


Sirlink wrote:
the main challenge I am having now is my familiar. My gm likes to target it. I have found that flying ones are good but I would have to suggest upping the anti on that one and going with an air elemental. Flies and can become a whirl wind making itnearly impossible to take out. That also give you one more control aspect in the field.

He likes to attack your familiar, do you have it delivering touch affects? Scouting? If not there is no reason for the monster(s) to attack it (unless you publicly declared that the familiar is a storage vessel for all of your spellcasting). That being said it sounds like your DM is metagaming or your teammates are considered less of a threat than the little fox scurrying around the battlefield.


on your page it says D-Door can be used to escape grapples

it is very unlikely given the DC concentration check you need to make


thenovalord wrote:

on your page it says D-Door can be used to escape grapples

it is very unlikely given the DC concentration check you need to make

Verbal components only, No check needed =D.


Not quite:

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#grappling-or-pinned wrote:
Magic rules[/url]]Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

Liberty's Edge

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

With the latest FAQ update the Scar Hex has changed from the worst Hex in the game to a required hex after 10th level.

** spoiler omitted **

Add to that if you want to find/kill/hex the BBEG in a dungeon simply scar and release one of his minions. You can devastate him from the safety of the front door of their dungeon/castle/crypt/etc.

It should be noted that split hex doesn't work with major hexes or grand hexes, so 'devastate' may be overstating it a bit. Blight Hex is about the worst you could do to a BBEG via a scarred minion, and then only if s/he's an animal or plant creature. Or maybe misfortune hex or slumber hex them when they're at the top of a very long flight of stone steps.

Unnerve Beasts would be kind of a cool hex to employ via scar, though, particularly if the target of the scar/hex is a paladin, ranger, cavalier or druid. Really screw up their week.

Dark Archive

Areteas wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

With the latest FAQ update the Scar Hex has changed from the worst Hex in the game to a required hex after 10th level.

** spoiler omitted **

Add to that if you want to find/kill/hex the BBEG in a dungeon simply scar and release one of his minions. You can devastate him from the safety of the front door of their dungeon/castle/crypt/etc.

It should be noted that split hex doesn't work with major hexes or grand hexes, so 'devastate' may be overstating it a bit. Blight Hex is about the worst you could do to a BBEG via a scarred minion, and then only if s/he's an animal or plant creature. Or maybe misfortune hex or slumber hex them when they're at the top of a very long flight of stone steps.

Unnerve Beasts would be kind of a cool hex to employ via scar, though, particularly if the target of the scar/hex is a paladin, ranger, cavalier or druid. Really screw up their week.

At that point you just pick up Split MAJOR hex and continue the devastation and to get that hex to actually work on those companions would be a difficult endeavor. (That +4 vs mind affecting they get from being a companion makes it a risky but not impossible endeavor).


Didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been answered already.

Where did you get the idea that the scar hex could be used to extend the reach of the witch's hexes? I'm talking about the "animal in a box" strategy. Reading the scar FAQ, I don't see how this works. The hex allows you to cast hexes on the scarred creature at range but nowhere does it say anything about using a scarred creature as range extension when using hexes on other creatures.

Am I missing something?


Blave wrote:

Didn't read the whole thread so I apologize if this has been answered already.

Where did you get the idea that the scar hex could be used to extend the reach of the witch's hexes? I'm talking about the "animal in a box" strategy. Reading the scar FAQ, I don't see how this works. The hex allows you to cast hexes on the scarred creature at range but nowhere does it say anything about using a scarred creature as range extension when using hexes on other creatures.

Am I missing something?

You missed Split Hex feat

Split Hex
You can split the effect of one of your targeted hexes, affecting another creature you can see.

Prerequisites: Witch level 10th.

Benefit: When you use one of your hexes (not a major hex or a grand hex) that targets a single creature, you can choose another creature within 30 feet of the first target to also be targeted by the hex.

So scared critter is target one at range and another creature within 30 feet of it. It does have a drawback: it would mean that you are unable to cackle extend the hex.


I kinda doubt that this is RAI and I wouldn't use or allow it in my game.

But by RAW it seems to work that way, so I won't argue about it.

Thanks for the clarification. This should really be added to the guide.


The description for Split Hex does say "affecting another creature you can see."

That should hold even if you're using a scarred creature as the first target. It still lets you extend the range, but not hit him when he's back home thinking he's safe.

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:

The description for Split Hex does say "affecting another creature you can see."

That should hold even if you're using a scarred creature as the first target. It still lets you extend the range, but not hit him when he's back home thinking he's safe.

Doesn't matter where they go, the scar lets you scry on them pretty much automatically this opens em up to all the nastiest scry and fry tricks you want to do and there's almost nothing they can do to stop you.


Blave wrote:

Not quite:

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magic.html#grappling-or-pinned wrote:
Magic rules[/url]]Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.

yep, pretty tricky


I may be missing something fundamental here but why is Spell Hex rated so highly?

Spell Hex
You can transform a 1st-level spell into a hex.

Prerequisite: Major hex class feature.

Benefit: Select one 1st-level spell in the class that grants you the major hex class feature. You can learn that spell as a hex, and can use that hex three times per day. This is a spell-like ability. You use your class level in the major-hex-granting class as your caster level for the spell hex. The spell hex uses your hex DC instead of its original spell DC.

If the spell is a touch spell and you miss the creature, you cannot target the creature with that spell hex again for 24 hours. If the spell allows a saving throw to negate or take a partial effect from the spell, and the target succeeds at that saving throw, it cannot be affected by the spell hex for 24 hours, even if it is in the area of the spell hex.

By the time you get it (10th level +) i cant think of many 1st level spells i'd like to cast x3/day. Admittedly the save DC goes up and becomes a hex but what am i missing here? There don't seem to be many 1st level spells worth knowing and only burning hands is an AoE (that i can see)


On Spell Hex, please do note that SLA's have no verbal or somatic components, and cast as a standard action.

For instance, my Enchantress Witch is a big fan of the first two with Charm Person (as well as the increased DC), which may be a good incentive for her picking this up in a few levels when its available.


KrispyXIV wrote:

On Spell Hex, please do note that SLA's have no verbal or somatic components, and cast as a standard action.

For instance, my Enchantress Witch is a big fan of the first two with Charm Person (as well as the increased DC), which may be a good incentive for her picking this up in a few levels when its available.

Enlarge person hex sounds hilarious.

Command Hex also sounds hilarious.


TarkXT wrote:
KrispyXIV wrote:

On Spell Hex, please do note that SLA's have no verbal or somatic components, and cast as a standard action.

For instance, my Enchantress Witch is a big fan of the first two with Charm Person (as well as the increased DC), which may be a good incentive for her picking this up in a few levels when its available.

Enlarge person hex sounds hilarious.

Command Hex also sounds hilarious.

Further, add on things like Split Hex and now you've got some real promising options. Like Double-Charm Person! If you only have two melee guys in your party, Split Enlarge Person is almost as good as Mass. Hmm... ok, so maybe there aren't a WHOLE lot of options... but I do like a couple of the ones that are there.

Unless you're a Hexcrafter Magus, maybe? Having a Major Hex counts as having the 'major hex' class feature right? They may get better options from this feat.

Dark Archive

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KrispyXIV wrote:

On Spell Hex, please do note that SLA's have no verbal or somatic components, and cast as a standard action.

For instance, my Enchantress Witch is a big fan of the first two with Charm Person (as well as the increased DC), which may be a good incentive for her picking this up in a few levels when its available.

This is part of the reason it's rated so high but not all of it.

First it's for forward compatibility, there are always going to be new spells coming out and one of them is going to be worth it.

Second, anything that lets you customize your character is always great.

Mostly however it's because Hexes don't provoke AoO's have MUCH higher DC's and are FASTER to cast.
Any of your first level spells (beguiling Gift) that you want to keep using but either have too low of DC's or would get you creamed by the AoO can be turned into a hex and solves all those problems immediately.

My personal favorite spells to use this on are:

Enlarge Person
Infernal Healing
Summon Monster I
Ray of Enfeeblement
Beguiling Gift
Mage Armor
Mount

Overall you must remember we are witches, direct damage spells are not really what we do. Buffs and debuffs are our bread and butter and utility abilities are great.

On the flip side remember this feat is also available To Magus (Hexcrafter) and their first level spells to hexes are truly nasty.
Imagine being able to cast these spells at will without provoking in the middle of combat.

Grease
Flare Burst
hydraulic Push
Shocking burst
Vanish (oh crap that's broken)


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

On the flip side remember this feat is also available To Magus (Hexcrafter) and their first level spells to hexes are truly nasty.

Imagine being able to cast these spells at will without provoking in the middle of combat.

3/day is not quite at will, but still, yeah, most Hexcrafters would probably pay a feat for an extra 3 level 1 spells a day (normal maguses can get 2 3rd levels for a feat, so they win, but hexcrafters dont have Improved Spell Recall so thats still a win for them).


You are mistaken Math. Spell Hexs DO provoke AoO according to the definitions.
Spell Hex states that it turns the spell into a spell like ability(Sp) not a supernatural ability(Su) Spellike abilities do provoke AoO since they mimic a spell they are interuptable. the concentration dc is 15+ double the spell level, in this case one, or the effect fizzles.


I don'T get why you so highly recommend the Time Patron in your guide.

Threefold Aspect and Teleport (you name them as being good in the patron) are on the basic list for Witches, no patron required.

Haste is also in the Agility Patron which also features Freedom of Movement, arguably one of the best spells in the game.
The only thing the Time Patron has over the Agility is the Silence spell. But I guess Freedom of Movement is more valuable than this one.

Also for the Improved Familiar you should take a look at the Nosoi which gets low light vision, darkvision and blindsight 60ft. Add in "permanent" invisibility and a good Cha for using UMD and probably even using Diplomacy for you.
Not to mention its fascinate will get its DC increased and is usable unlimited times per day.


Never seen this one. Wonder if they can use wands with their feet?

Text says use medium size writing implements at no penalty, somaybe could use a wand.
The at will Invisible is freakin awesome but tiny size means it.can't flank.

Could be a good magus Familiar if it can use wands. Dust Mephit may still bebetter.


I'm personally looking forward to witch's hut getting 5 stars and the first ever ultraviolet rating. Honestly its a power so useful I would take 18 levels of witch just so my fighter can have a walking hut.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

I'd like to see some tips vs. undead and similar foes in this guide. It seems a bit of a blind spot for the witch, as a lot of good witch spells won't function against them, as well as some hexes (evil eye, slumber). It's basically out of caution for these types of foes that I'm taking Web (though a fine spell on its own) and Enlarge Person (the witch seems considerably more limited when it comes to buffing than debuffing).

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