| 10 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. |
Hey everyone!
Forgive me if this has been FAQed already.
There's a few weird things going on with shapechanging magic and disguises. Firstly--
Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks (see the individual spell descriptions). You must succeed on a Disguise check with a +10 bonus to duplicate the appearance of a specific individual using the veil spell. Divination magic that allows people to see through illusions (such as true seeing) does not penetrate a mundane disguise, but it can negate the magical component of a magically enhanced one.
So we get a +10 on Disguise. But--
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +20 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature.
So we actually get a +20 on Disguise.
To help me solve this mystery, I went to ask two classic Pathfinder shapeshifters--Zevanxis the Doppleganger and the unnamed Faceless Stalker minion from Runelords (updated to Pathfinder in the Bestiary 2) what they thought about this mess. Zevanxis told me that the +20 from the Polymorph subschool was correct:
Disguise +9 (+29 while using change shape ability)
Whereas the Faceless Stalker disagreed and insisted it was the +10 from the Disguise skill that should be applied:
Disguise +14 (+24 when using change shape)
and
Change Shape (Su)
A faceless stalker can assume the form of a Medium humanoid at will but requires 10 uninterrupted minutes to alter its body. Performing this transformation is somewhat painful, but the faceless stalker can maintain its new form indefinitely once it has achieved it. It can change back to its true form as a swift action and gains a +2 morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, skill checks, and saving throws for 1 round after it does so. Faceless stalkers retain their own innate abilities when they assume their new form and do not gain any of those belonging to the creature they mimic. A faceless stalker gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks when they are used in conjunction with this ability.
I think this is a case of inconsistency in updating from 3.5. Which one is correct? My instinct is that +10 is correct because the newer monster (Bestiary 2 Faceless Stalker) has that bonus.
So in determining this, I found another interesting question: The Doppelganger has Change Shape (Alter Self) and the nifty ability called Perfect Copy
Perfect Copy (Su)
When a doppelganger uses change shape, it can assume the appearance of specific individuals.
Since leads to a very strong implicature--it implies that any creature without this ability cannot copy a specific creature, and the Polymorph spell backs this up. However, Faceless Stalkers as used in the APs can clearly take the form of a specific creature, but they don't have this ability.
I think the upshot to this is that Faceless Stalkers should also have Perfect Copy. The fact that they don't makes me less confident in the assessment that the +10 bonus is correct based on the Faceless Stalker entry.
So, has this been hashed out already? If it hasn't, and if I haven't missed anything obvious, please mark this post for FAQ. Thanks!
I'd say, the +10 is to disguise as a specific individual (Rork The Orc) while +20 is for an unspecific member of a race (arbitrary orc), at least I guess that's the RAI or at least the Rules As They Should Be
It's not clearly written, yeah, and your examples show again that the definition is weak.
Point is, +10 for specific and +20 for unspecific makes sense to me
I'd say, the +10 is to disguise as a specific individual (Rork The Orc) while +20 is for an unspecific member of a race (arbitrary orc), at least I guess that's the RAI or at least the Rules As They Should Be
It's not clearly written, yeah, and your examples show again that the definition is weak.
Point is, +10 for specific and +20 for unspecific makes sense to me
It's certainly possible. The trouble here is that making a magical copy of someone is definitely worth a large bonus, but it's hard to common-sense out whether +10 or +20 is appropriate using simply instinct when both are so large. Either would probably be fair to grant to PCs and monsters using these abilities, but it's good to have a baseline so that we don't have some monsters and NPCs getting one bonus and others getting another.
I'd say, the +10 is to disguise as a specific individual (Rork The Orc) while +20 is for an unspecific member of a race (arbitrary orc), at least I guess that's the RAI or at least the Rules As They Should Be
It's not clearly written, yeah, and your examples show again that the definition is weak.
Point is, +10 for specific and +20 for unspecific makes sense to me
Yet that's counting your bonuses twice.
A generic DC for any member of a race; and viewers get a bonus when they are familiar with a specific individual impersonated;
Then Disguise +20 to disguise as any member of a race, but only Disguise +10 to conform to a specific creature's guise.
It would be much easier to stick to a flat Disguise bonus and variable oppositional bonuses.
Edit: This may be wrong, doublechecking.
Edit 2: Corrected.
Heh, okay, my mistake was in the OP's post when it said "the creature must make a Disguise check with a +10 bonus." I misread that as +10 DC.
In reality, there are no DCs for Disguise; the viewer makes a Perception check, and gets bonuses if it is familiar with the target. Also very important is that the stipulation that one may only Disguise as a generic member of a race appears to only apply to certain spells -- there is no such restriction in the Disguise spell itself, which is reinforced by the text "If you are impersonating a particular individual" ...
So far, what we have here is the following: In the Magic Chapter, in the Transmutation School section, in the Polymorph subschool paragraph, it says that you gain a +20 bonus to Disguise checks. Yet it also says "you may not assume the form of a specific creature unless the spell specifies otherwise."
So what is actually implied, according to what I've read so far, is that Alter Self actually doesn't normally allow you to assume a specific creature's form; but the Doppelganger's Perfect Copy ability repurposes its Change Shape (Alter Self) so that it can.
Re-read the Alter Self spell again. You'll notice that that when it says:
You can assume the form of any Medium or Small creature of the Humanoid type
it can very well be interpreted that it doesn't actually mean specific creatures, but instead, that you can assume the form of any Med/Small Humanoid race.
Since the Disguise skill inherently allows one to impersonate a particular individual, any and all of these bonuses would assist in achieving that.
I think the OP is asking why +20 on one monster's use of shapechange for Disguise and another only +10.
For that, I don't have a definitive answer, but it could simply be a matter of two different abilities.
The Core book says Polymorph effects grant a +20. The Errata doesn't show that this has been modified.
The Change Shape ability in the Bestiary shows that Change Shape effects are all Polymorph effects, the type of which is specified in the creature's description. The Errata doesn't show that this has been modified.
The Bestiary 2 Change Shape ability reads about the same as Bestiary 1. While Bestiary 2 could theoretically change how Change Shape operates, I can't seem to find an Errata document that could clarify the issue, and until I can confirm or deny its existence and that fact, there's no reason to conclude that it does.
So given all that and how the Change Shape works with other existing monsters, it seems that Faceless Stalker has an incorrect Disguise bonus.
Or it could be an example of specific rules overriding the general.
The Core book says Polymorph effects grant a +20. The Errata doesn't show that this has been modified.
The Change Shape ability in the Bestiary shows that Change Shape effects are all Polymorph effects, the type of which is specified in the creature's description. The Errata doesn't show that this has been modified.
The Bestiary 2 Change Shape ability reads about the same as Bestiary 1. While Bestiary 2 could theoretically change how Change Shape operates, I can't seem to find an Errata document that could clarify the issue, and until I can confirm or deny its existence and that fact, there's no reason to conclude that it does.
So given all that and how the Change Shape works with other existing monsters, it seems that Faceless Stalker has an incorrect Disguise bonus.
The core book also says that Polymorph effects give a +10 to Disguise checks (rather than a +20), just in the section on Disguise, as quoted above: "Magic that alters your form, such as alter self, disguise self, polymorph, or shapechange, grants you a +10 bonus on Disguise checks". So it's inconsistent within itself. I also couldn't find an errata or FAQ entry, so I'm going to go FAQ myself, at least for now.
Still nothing, eh? Anyone else want to mark this for FAQ, then?
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It does seem like a contradiction. I will hit the FAQ button also.
Ah. So the Disguise skill says that polymorphs and similar spells give you a +10 bonus, and the Magic chapter says they give you +20.
I have run into this issue before and was never able to get a straight answer. With enough support I'm hoping we can get one now. FAQ it is!