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Cooperative Crafting
Requirements: 1 rank in any craft skill, any item creation feat
Benefit: You can assist another character is crafting mundane and magical items. You must both posses the relevant craft skill or item creation feat, but either one of you can fulfill the other requirements for crafting the item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus to any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making the item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
I think the answer you're looking for is in the last half of the last sentence, "..and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day."
That sounds to me like it doubles the value and by your calculations it would halve the time.
Now, if both characters or more have the feat, would it further divide the time between them by, "doubl[ing] the gp value of items that can be crafted each day. "
Kind of like how a quilting circle or a barn raising's time is shrunk by how many people show up to say, craft quilt or craft barn. Habitat for humanity and those home building shows are a great example as they show a fully realized house built in only 1 week.
Just my thoughts.
I agree that the bonus should be something other than a circumstance bonus, perhaps simply untyped, but the rest of the feat actually is very useful. And the circumstance bonus isn't really an issue for magic item creation - what 99.99% of characters considering this feat will use it for - as there is no masterwork tool available for the Spellcraft roll needed for the crafting. So no concerns with stacking. Plus the feat would stack well with an item that gave a Spellcraft skill bonus, since such bonuses are usually competence or untyped. (Call the custom item a "thinking cap" or whatever you like, it still costs bonus^2 x 100gp.)
I think the answer you're looking for is in the last half of the last sentence, "..and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day."
That's how I'm reading it, and as soon as my tabletop Pathfinder game starts up again, I'm hoping the 5th-level Wizard I'm bringing in via the Leadership feat will enable me to Craft Wand and Craft Wondrous Items in half the time at the very least.
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When crafting something, such as Dragonhide Plate Armor, or anything else for that matter, you use the relevant craft skill every week to generate a number of silver pieces equal to skill check x craft DC (typically 20). Most craft checks if we take 10 will result in a 30. So that would be, on average, 30x20= 600 sp, or 60 gp per week.At the rate of 60gp per week, it would take 55 weeks (a year basically) to craft Dragonhide Plate Armor since it's worth 3200gp.
Would it make more sense to convert SP to GP/week at say 5 skill ranks or higher? As well as to reduce the time, since you have a greater knowledge in the craft skill it would seem that you would have learned to do things faster with better skill.
I can understand how crafting a suit of armor might take a few weeks, but a whole year? Maybe if it was ornate parade noble ready full plate with all the trimmings.
But Wands and Wonderous Items can be crafted quickly anyway- 1000 gp a day means you can Craft a 30000 gp wand in 1 month. A far cry from the decade required to Craft one.
Quickly is relative. You might need that wand before 30 days is up. It also benefits other magic item creation, and it can be very useful on a game that has a time limit, but at the same time the DM does not allow magic marts.
Circumstance bonuses stack when they arise from different circumstances.
I think that makes sense, but I don't that in book by RAW.
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Circumstance bonuses stack when they arise from different circumstances.I think that makes sense, but I don't that in book by RAW.
It's in the magic chapter. Kind of.
Bonus Types: Usually, a bonus has a type that indicates how the spell grants the bonus. The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works (see Combining Magical Effects). The same principle applies to penalties—a character taking two or more penalties of the same type applies only the worst one, although most penalties have no type and thus always stack. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.
I have to say, though, that I didn't knew that racial bonuses stack.
Regardless of the utility of this specific feat, it does show that the designers are trying to fix the Craft problem.
Well I learned something new. I did not know that circumstance bonuses stack. However I still objection to this feat. It really seems like it enables you to do something you should be able to do anyway. The assist rules allow you to give a +2 bonus to aid another if you hit DC 10, and doubling the amount of value produced seems like something the DM should allow anyway. It's just common sense that if one person is building a house alone, the same work could be done more than twice as fast with a competent helper.
Really, all the feat seems to allow is spellcasters to share requirements to forge a Wonderous Item, and that seems like a fairly limited ability.
Am I missing something or will the normal assist bonuses stack with this feat?
so crafting "x"
1 crafter = time y
1 crafter and henchgoon = time y at +2skill
1 crafter w/feat and goon = time y/2 at +4 skill
1 crafter w/feat and goon w/feat = time y/4 at +6 skill
1 crafter w/feat and 6 apprentices w/feat = time y/64 at +16 skill
Wait... I must be missing something.....
~will
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But Wands and Wonderous Items can be crafted quickly anyway- 1000 gp a day means you can Craft a 30000 gp wand in 1 month. A far cry from the decade required to Craft one.Quickly is relative. You might need that wand before 30 days is up. It also benefits other magic item creation, and it can be very useful on a game that has a time limit, but at the same time the DM does not allow magic marts.
+1. Adventure paths gives you very little down time as the story progresses unless your GM is very generous and willing to pause time. As a fighter, I went through 3 different axes before the game was over, each time wanting to add an ability on it but there just isn't time (or a city is doomed). 1/2 crafting time from in house wizards/clerics? Yes thank you!
The feat allows you to aid another in crafting. So it the crafter has the feat it really doesn't matter unless he is seeking to aid the goon, who presumably doesn't have a very high craft skill. So in your scenario with a crafter and a goon both with the feat, y is still y/2.
Also keep in mind that the feat requires an item creation feat, meaning that all of your apprentices needed to take Scribe Scroll whether they needed it or not.
oops.
Well it still works for alchemy. 7 goons with 1 rank in alchemy and this feat aiding an alchemist would churn out goodies faster than santa.
~will
Also keep in mind that the feat requires an item creation feat, meaning that all of your apprentices needed to take Scribe Scroll whether they needed it or not.
Ahah, but it says OR relevant craft skill. So if your wizard has scribe scroll and ranks in profession: scribe he can help the cleric make a scroll, and if he has 1 rank in weaponsmithing he can help the fighter pound out his magical blade.
Still.. yes.. a very crumby feat.
-I suppose if you got leadership you could make your cohorts take it, along with the ranks in profession or craft.
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Well I learned something new. I did not know that circumstance bonuses stack. However I still objection to this feat. It really seems like it enables you to do something you should be able to do anyway. The assist rules allow you to give a +2 bonus to aid another if you hit DC 10, and doubling the amount of value produced seems like something the DM should allow anyway. It's just common sense that if one person is building a house alone, the same work could be done more than twice as fast with a competent helper.
Really, all the feat seems to allow is spellcasters to share requirements to forge a Wonderous Item, and that seems like a fairly limited ability.
In real life it depend on the skill level.
It that the reason why in the middle ages guilds you had the ranks of apprentice, journeyman and master.If you are a smith an apprentice probably has a value of 0-3 in the relevant skills (probably a Commoner in game terms). He will bring the tools to the master smith, pump the bellows of the forge, prepare the carbon to light the forge and so on. Under the master guidance he would learn to construct basic items like nails.
He would give the +2 bonus from the aid another action but not increase the gold value of items produced in a day (if not for the effect of adding +2 to the skill check).
A journeyman would be an Expert with smithing as a class skill, with a skill level of 4-6 at least (to become a journeyman the apprentice had to build a masterpiece. Probably not the equivalent of a masterwork item but certainly a item requiring significant skills).
At this level the smith is a competent person capable to live with his craft. So he is the right level to get the feat Cooperative Crafting and at that level of skill he will be capable of doubling the gp value produced every day.
Note that unless I am mistaken using the aid another action he would add +2 to the master skill, plus another +2 for the feat, for a total of +4, beside doubling the gp output.
Without the feat he would still be a competent smith but probably not able to work with the master on the same item at the same time.
What you want (doubling without the feat) probably can be done if the two people building the item are working in shift instead of in tandem, i.e. the first guy (for example) work from 8.00 to 18.00 (with a midday pause) on the item and the second guy work from 19.00 to 5.00 (again with a pause to rest in the middle of the work) on the same item.
That way you will double the daily production in sp but you will not get the aid another bonus.
Note that it will not be feasible for magic items. [opinion, not a rule I have found somewhere]
Am I missing something or will the normal assist bonuses stack with this feat?so crafting "x"
1 crafter = time y
1 crafter and henchgoon = time y at +2skill
1 crafter w/feat and goon = time y/2 at +4 skill
1 crafter w/feat and goon w/feat = time y/4 at +6 skill
1 crafter w/feat and 6 apprentices w/feat = time y/64 at +16 skillWait... I must be missing something.....
~will
Barring specific exceptions the stacking of bonus add, it don't multiply, so
so crafting "x"
1 crafter = time y
1 crafter and henchgoon = time y at +2skill
1 crafter w/feat and goon = time y/2 at +4 skill (as [either one of you can fulfil the other requirements for crafting the item] it should work even if only the master has the feat and he do the roll, I think)
1 crafter w/feat and goon w/feat = time y/3 at +6 skill
1 crafter w/feat and 6 apprentices w/feat = time y/7 at +16 skill
(I would put a limit on how many people can help you depending on the item and the master skill. I don't see 7 persons working on a ring at the same time. There is something about that in the rules too)
Masterwork Artisan tools already give a +2 circumstance bonus, so this bonus is rather worthless.
Well, except the following:
Circumstance: This is a bonus or penalty based on situational factors, which may apply either to a check or the DC for that check. Circumstance modifiers stack with each other, unless they arise from essentially the same circumstance.
So the feat's bonus stacks with anything other circumstance bonus that isn't from getting help from another person (and even then, it'd probably have to be the same feat again to be the exact same circumstance).
You won't find this in the Pathfinder books though. It's a 3.5e DMG info.
The only info that Pathfinder has on bonuses is the following:
Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.
Going by that though, even Dodge bonuses wouldn't stack. Which we obvously do stack. So I'd go by the rule that has been working for the last decade, and say that the circumstance bonuses apply since they are from a different "circumstance".
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Strange, apparently I can't edit my previous post to add this:
(You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
I think both part are relevant, the one bolded for the "six helpers" example.
The other part for the utility of low skill helpers, especially if they don't have the Cooperative Crafting feat.
What bother me a bit in the crafting rules is that the progression after you take the first skill is very slow. This is especially noticeable for NPC crafters.
With 1 skill and a decent intelligence (12) they get 1 (skill) + 3 (class skill bonus) + 1 (stat) = +5
Getting to level 2 and increasing the skill will make it only +6.
To get it to +10 (people capable of doing a masterwork item taking 10) they need to be 6th level, someone that should be relatively rare between commoner and experts. But in a almost any town you will be capable to get masterwork items from local crafters.
You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.
I.e the above mentioned 1 level crafter with a skill bonus of +5 taking 10 will get 7.5 gp/week. 390 gp/year. Note the "earning" part. It is after the expenses, included those of a adequate life stile.
A good result for a free, competent, worker and perfectly in line with a guy with +5 skill bonus making typical (DC10) items.
But let's see what a master of the same trade (I consider a level 5 NPC crafter a master) will get:
skill bonus 9, taking 10 = 19, 9.5 gp/week, 494/year. So a master will get only 27% more than a normally skilled worker.
I would like to see 2 feats aimed principally to NPC crafters, something to this tune:
* Journeyman: prerequisite - 2 skill rank in one specific craft skill; specific craft skill is a class skill for you.
Description: you have learned your craft well enough to live by it.
You get +1 competence bonus to one craft skill in wick you have at least 2 skill ranks and that is a class skill for you.
This skill can be taken multiple times but only for different crafts.
* Master craftsmen: 5 skill rank in one specific craft skill; specific craft skill is a class skill for you, Journeyman feat.
Description: you have learned your craft well enough to live by it.
You get +2 competence bonus to one craft skill in wick you have at least 5 skill ranks and the Journeyman feat. tTis bonus is cumulative with the Journeyman feat (yes, the total bonus is meant to be +3)
This skill can be taken multiple times but only for different crafts.
those feat will slightly reduce the level at wick a craftsmen will be capable of doing masterwork items and give a slightly increase to the income of a master crafter.
Note that this part of the crafting rules:
Special: You may voluntarily add +10 to the indicated DC to craft an item. This allows you to create the item more quickly (since you’ll be multiplying this higher DC by your Craft check result to determine progress). You
must decide whether to increase the DC before you make each weekly or daily check.
will allow a higher output (and so income) for a master craftsmen from the time he can routinely take 10 and get a 20 result for the building of typical items if the interpretation is stretched a bit.
He would be getting x2 the income of a guy incapable of doing that.
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So I'm Preston's GM. We're thinking about fiddlin' with the rules a little, but I want to make sure I understand the RAW before we tinker.
1. Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the item's DC from Table: Craft Skills.
3. Pay 1/3 of the item's price for the raw material cost.
4. Make an appropriate Craft check representing one week's worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result ? the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you have completed the item. (If the result ? the DC equals double or triple the price of the item in silver pieces, then you've completed the task in one-half or one-third of the time. Other multiples of the DC reduce the time in the same manner.) If the result ? the DC doesn't equal the price, then it represents the progress you've made this week. Record the result and make a new Craft check for the next week. Each week, you make more progress until your total reaches the price of the item in silver pieces.
Basically, you make (Skill Check) x (DC) progress each week toward the cost of the item in sp, right? Once you hit the sp cost, it's done. [An oddity of this formula is that the higher the DC, the faster something will be finished.]
Now, Preston brings up Cooperative Crafting.
You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day.
If my understanding of the formula above is correct, with Cooperative Crafting, it would be: {2 x (Skill Check + 2)} x (DC) progress each week toward the cost of the item in sp.
So... without the feat, an assistant can give you +2 on the skill check through Aid Another but not affect your rate (although, even that +2 does affect your rate a little because it adds to the multiplier).
With the feat, that same assistant can give you +2 Aid Another and {2 x (Skill Check + 2)}, or, effectively, {2 x (Skill Check + 4)}.
Seems to me that each assistant with the feat would add +4, 2 for Aid and 2 for the feat, and add 1 to the rate multiplier. Up to some reasonable limit on the number of assistants - maybe the master's ranks in Craft? (the more skilled you are, the more helpers you can utilize?)
I don't actually think the master needs or can even use the feat, though. It says "your assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted each day." You certainly couldn't assist yourself solo, and if both the master and the assistant had the feat, who is assisting whom?
[BTW- I'm aware that I've mostly just repeated what Diego and PoorWanderingOne have said previously; I just needed to work through it myself.]
Assuming what I've written so far is correct, let me try an actual example - creating a mithral breastplate.
1. Breastplate = 200 gp + 4000 gp for medium armor mithral = 42,000 sp
2. DC = 10 + AC bonus 6 = 16.
* Mithral is always masterwork, so requires a 2nd DC 20 check later. No additional cost (or time) as masterwork cost is included in the original mithral cost.
3. Requires 1,400 gp in raw materials (if you use the 500 gp/lb number, a 15 lb breastplate includes about 2.5 lbs of pure mithral ... must be an alloy).
4. Alone (level 2) = skill (d20 +2 ranks +3 class skills bonus +2 Int bonus +2 masterwork tools +2 gnome = +11, call it 21 average) x DC 16 = 336 sp/wk, or 125 weeks.
w/ unfeated assistant = {skill (21) +2} = 23 x DC 16 = 368 sp/wk, or 115 weeks.
w/ feated assistant = 2 x {skill (21) +4} = 50 x DC 16 = 800 sp/wk, or 53 weeks.
w/ 2 feated assistants = 3 x {skill (21) +8} = 87 x DC 16 = 1,392 sp/wk, or 31 weeks.
Analysis - the feat as is helps A LOT, as does having multiple assistants. And this is based on a level 2 lead crafter. Just for reference: 4,200 gp sales price - 1,400 in materials = 2,800 profit = 3.7 gp/day ... not a bad living for a 2nd-level armor smith.
Alone (level 5) = skill (d20 +5 ranks +3 class skills bonus +3 skill focus +3 Int bonus +2 masterwork tools +2 gnome = +18, call it 28 average) x DC 16 = 448 sp/wk, or 94 weeks. With the work-fast option you get 28 x DC 26 = 728 sp/wk, or 58 weeks.
w/ 2 feated assistants = 3 x {skill (28) +8} = 106 x DC 16 = 1,696 sp/wk, or 25 weeks. With the work-fast option you get 106 x DC 26 = 2,756 sp/wk, or 16 weeks.
(just for fun) w/ 5 feated assistants = 6 x {skill (28) +20} = 288 x DC 16 = 4,608 sp/wk, or 10 weeks. With the work-fast option you get 288 x DC 26 = 7488 sp/wk, or 6 weeks!
Analysis - better, but Diego's point about the slow progression is apparent; it doesn't get too much faster with higher levels. Sure, you could stat bump more and invest in a lot of traits and probably feats to push your Craft-check modifier up more. And I guess that's what a dedicated, non-adventurer armor smith would actually do.
Tangent - That's an issue I've always had. Adventurers with Craft skills can be just as good as Experts who dedicate their lives to a profession. My thought was some type of a bonus to Experts using Craft/Profession - something like a flat +3, or maybe add 1/2 their level (like a Ranger w/ track or a Rogue w/ traps), or let them exceed the normal "max ranks = level" and instead let them invest heavily in one or two skills.
Conclusion - So, Preston, Hazzard, like I said, I'm open to the idea of tweeking this a little, but:
1) Check my math.
2) Explain to me why an adventurer and part-time armor smith ought to be much faster than this.
3) What's your suggestions, and show me how fast you think you ought to be able to churn out a mithral breastplate.
The time to craft a mundane item mentioned in the craft skills has no bearing whatsoever on the time it takes to enchant an item with magic (which is set), not even when you are using Master Artisan and a craft skill.
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The time to craft a mundane item mentioned in the craft skills has no bearing whatsoever on the time it takes to enchant an item with magic (which is set), not even when you are using Master Artisan and a craft skill.
The problem is that crafting the mundane part generally require much more time that enchanting the object.
Tangent - That's an issue I've always had. Adventurers with Craft skills can be just as good as Experts who dedicate their lives to a profession. My thought was some type of a bonus to Experts using Craft/Profession - something like a flat +3, or maybe add 1/2 their level (like a Ranger w/ track or a Rogue w/ traps), or let them exceed the normal "max ranks = level" and instead let them invest heavily in one or two skills.
That why I was suggesting the Journeyman and Master feats.
I doubt most players would spend a valuable feat for this bonus, but a dedicate non adventuring NPC crafter? He will do it without doubt.
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Hey Brian,
Your math is essentially correct except my guy has 1 more skill rank and, as an Alchemist, has the Crafter's Fortune, extract. So he's hitting +17. Also, the DC for crafting a Masterwork item is DC 20, so the average week would be 27 x 20 = 540 sp/week. A bit more than your calculations.
I don't see the benefit of the Journeyman and Master feats when you already have access to Skill Focus and Master Crafter.
My objection has always been that at the rate of 54 gp a week, you can craft Mithral Breastplate in 77 weeks. Which means no Adventurer would ever do such a thing. However, to enchant it once it's been made, that can be done in a few days. It just doesn't make a ton of sense.
Note that when you look at things like applying the craft skill to poisons, it gets even more silly. Can you imagine working a year or two on a single dose of King's Sleep?
I am relatively new to Pathfinder so I had forgot that skill focus is way higher than in the 3.5 version. The only defect is that it hasn't the skill as a prerequisite.
I don't like Master Crafter as a general feat for the "common" master craftsman as it allow the production of magic items.
It mean that to get a further +2 in his skill the local smith will become capable of building magic weapons.
That would mean that they are extremely common.
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Also, the DC for crafting a Masterwork item is DC 20
There are actually two DCs for a masterwork item. The first is 10 + AC, and the second is the flat 20. Both contribute to the time it takes, it's almost like crafting two items. But since time required for the second part of the checks is based off the value added by masterwork, and the value of masterwork is included in the base price of mithral, I'd just say the 2nd check is instantaneous - basically, you finish and go to bed, and the next morning you check to see if the process of alloying the mithral "took," or if, when all is said and done, a huge crack appears in the item as the mithral "rejects" the other metal.
My objection has always been that at the rate of 54 gp a week, you can craft Mithral Breastplate in 77 weeks. Which means no Adventurer would ever do such a thing. However, to enchant it once it's been made, that can be done in a few days.
Enchanting is a spell-like process and can be as quick or as slow as one wants to imagine. By RAW, it's quick. Say a few words and rub the item with a magic chamois cloth, and PRESTO! Comparing actual metalwork to spellcraft is apples to oranges.
On the 77 weeks, I don't imagine most adventurers will be crafting their own magic armor. It's not their primary function. They can, and with the right feats, etc., they can get pretty good at it, but I think it's fair thatit would require a pretty good chunk of time away from adventuring. You're also looking at a pretty specialized piece of armor. If you were to just make yourself a masterwork set of full plate, the pinnacle of mundane armor, you're looking at DC 19 and DC 20, 15,000 gp, so skill 22 x DC 19 = 418 sp/wk, or 36 weeks. Plus another 34 wks for the masterwork, so about a year at 2nd level, working by yourself. Not bad. With an assistant w/ Coop Crafting it becomes 16 weeks and 15 weeks, so 31 weeks. Works out to about 3gp/day profit. A fairly "realistic" number.
But I can totally see how, as a player who wants to craft stuff, it's prohibitively long. Let's figure out something that cuts it by about half. You'll actually be able to add more to the skill check as you level, so that will make it faster. And I don't ever want to see it reduced to "days" as that would be both unrealistically quick and unbalancing. Toss out a couple of suggestions and let's see how they work.
The way our GM has solved the insanely long crafting times (for more expensive items/armor/weapons/etc) is we found an 'artifact forge' in a recent adventure. As our GM roleplayed it from our dwarven NPC, "Gee whiskers! You FOUND the legendary forge of (can't remember the name he gave)??!" As he then whispers "It is known to give the ability to forge rare and time consuming metals in no time flat!"
What he basically told us out of gameplay is it will allow to cut down our crafting times to more reasonable levels. He said he needs to work out exact specifics on the numbers yet.
I will tell you though, talk about a PAIN having to transport that back to our village!
*Grabs the whips and the leather mask
Ohhh STINKY feat not...
nevermind
But I can totally see how, as a player who wants to craft stuff, it's prohibitively long. Let's figure out something that cuts it by about half. You'll actually be able to add more to the skill check as you level, so that will make it faster. And I don't ever want to see it reduced to "days" as that would be both unrealistically quick and unbalancing. Toss out a couple of suggestions and let's see how they work.
As our current game is tweaking crafting a great deal i would like to speak to this. I think it becomes a matter of what do you want to acheive pacing wise with your story. Curerently crafting a MW set of full plate in our game takes Nine 8 hr work days. But this is a game where we play out almost every single day and have little down time so it produces a "feel" that crafting is still taking a measure of effort and time. In a kingmaker type game the crafting as written still may produce the pace you need.
I would love to see a fast, moderate, slow crafting scheme much like there is for leveling set up in some book to make crafting more game pace compatable.
But cooperative crafting is absolutely critical to my method of breaking Simulacrum.
But cooperative crafting is absolutely critical to my method of breaking Simulacrum.
I just LOVE abusing sims!
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I'm not proposing these, but here are a couple of ideas. Basically, I like the formula, but if craft-oriented people feel it's prohibitively slow, we could maybe substitute a few values.
Alone (level 2) = skill (d20 +2 ranks +3 class skills bonus +2 Int bonus +2 masterwork tools +2 gnome = +11, call it 21 average) x DC 16 = 336 sp/wk, or 125 weeks.
w/ unfeated assistant = {skill (21) +2} = 23 x DC 16 = 368 sp/wk, or 115 weeks.
w/ feated assistant = 2 x {skill (21) +4} = 50 x DC 16 = 800 sp/wk, or 53 weeks.
w/ 2 feated assistants = 3 x {skill (21) +8} = 87 x DC 16 = 1,392 sp/wk, or 31 weeks.
IDEA 1 - gp values instead of sp
The target for a mithral breastplate, for example, would only be 4,200 gp, instead of 42,000 sp. The skill check and DC would be the same, but the Alone above would be 336gp/wk, or 13 weeks. W/ a feated assistant, it would be 800 gp/wk, or 6 weeks.
Not too bad, actually. Still takes a while, but not FOREVER. This reduces the time by a factor of 10.
IDEA 2 - days instead of weeks
Keep values in sp, but the production rate is in days, not weeks. So in the Alone above, you would generate 336 sp/day, or 125 days (17.85 weeks). W/ a feated assistant, it would be 53 days (7.57 weeks).
Reduces time by a factor of 7. Slower, but has the benefit of figuring things out day-by-day, which is more in tune with the Kingmaker calendar.
CRAZY IDEA 1 + 2 - gp and days
Let's see what happens if we do both...
The Alone example becomes 336gp/day (instead of 336 sp/wk), or 13 days all together. W/ a feated assistant you get 800gp/day, or 6 days.
Jeez. That's SUPER fast. But I guess if one wanted to be able to churn out items, that'd be the way to go. I think it's a little too fast for my tastes ... but maybe not.
Opinions?
One thing I like about any of these is that they work for everyone. Feats would still modify them, but your average Commoner or Expert craftsman wouldn't end up way slower than your part-time adventurer/craftsman.
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I think a potential problem with faster Crafting times is exaggerating the existing disconnect between the GP you can earn by 'practicing your Craft', and the GP profit you could earn by making stuff to sell.
Say you have a level 1 Craftsman, with a total +5 bonus in his Craft skill. He can take 10 for a 15 total and earn 7.5GP per week just 'practicing his Craft'. Or he could spend that week Crafting 'typical' items at DC 10 which, taking 10 again, means he Crafts 15GP worth of items a week, 10GP worth of which is (potentially) pure profit. The higher his Skill bonus, the worse the disconnect actually gets. Instead of 'typical' items, he could spend his time making 'high quality' items at DC 15. Now he's making 22.5GP worth of items a week, 15GP of which is pure profit. At a +10 bonus he could be Crafting DC 20 'complex or superior' items worth 40gp per week, for 26.67GP profit, as opposed to the 10GP he'd normally be earning for 'practicing his Craft'.
If his Crafting generates GP value instead of SP value then those profits increase ten fold. If he's taking days instead of weeks they increase 7 fold. If it's GP taking days then he's making 70x the already inflated profit he gets for Crafting stuff. Say goodbye to any pretense of logic for your in-game economics (what little there is to start with...). And this is just Crafting regular stuff that people will actually want to buy, not super-powerful magic items or adventurer-specific stuff or anything...
Solving the 'adventurer's have no time to Craft' issue is the reason the Fabricate spell is there in the first place (it's even referenced in the Craft rules).
For non-adventurous Crafters they can get pretty good Skill bonuses pretty quickly...
Basic NPC Ability Score array + human racial bonus = 15 in primary job Ability Score (Intelligence for Craft in this case), for a base +2 bonus. 1 rank + class Skill bonus for +4, Skill Focus Feat for +3, Heart of the Fields human racial trait (replaces Skilled) for x0.5 character level as a bonus. Total = +9(.5) at level 1.
By level 5 they have a 16 Intelligence for +3 base, 5 ranks + class skill bonus for +8, Skill Focus for +3, Heart of the Fields for +2.5, Masterwork tools for +2, and Master Craftsman for +2. Total = +18(.5).
At level 7 they take either Craft Magic Arms & Armour or Craft Wonderous Item (as appropriate to their particular Craft), and at level 9 they take Cooperative Crafting. Levels 7 to 9 for a Commoner or Expert who stays at home and doesn't get involved in adveturers is pretty damned impressive, so this seems about right for a 'legendary' Craftsman so good that they can create truly enchanted items.
So a Craftsman who managed to get to, say, level 10 would have +3 base from his Intelligence of 17 (assuming no access to Ability Score boosting magic - if he's got the right type of Crafting he may have made himself a nice headband or something by now, but for argument's sake we'll keep him 'vanilla'), +13 for his 10 ranks in his class Craft Skill, +3 for his trusty Skill Focus, +5 for Heart of the Fields, +2 for his masterwork tools, +2 for Master Craftsman. Total = +28. That's before adding in any bonuses for having assistants, etc., but let's assume at least one 'Aid Another' for +2 to round it up to a nice +30 total.
This guy then hits DC 40 when taking 10. He can 'fast Craft' masterwork components of a pitiful DC 30 in his sleep, or (if the DM allows the option) can take two +10 DC 'fast craft' penalties, to generate 160GP worth of masterwork components per week. That's before adding in any Cooperative Crafting. So he can Craft you a masterwork longsword (for example) in a couple of weeks and, with another 18 days, can enchant it up to +3 for you. So, about a month from nothing to a +3 longsword with just one master swordsmith and his apprentice. Seems reasonable to me. Cooperative crafting would cut the time a lot, and (if it's a PC with the Feat) mean a nice 'making the sword' montage scene... ;)
Just a note,
if you have 6 mooks with the feat, and each is helping, you only get +2 circumstance bonus from them all, not +12. Why? Because it's the same circumstance (mook A and mook B are both giving a +2 from the same feat). No stackie of same typie, or something like that.
i do remember seeing somewhere that mithral and adamantine were supposed to work as easy as steel (their price mod doesnt affect time) but after checking the srd, only dragonhide has that description.
Level 1 expert
1 rank + 3 class skill + 1 int + 3 skill focus + 2 masterwork tools = +10
Taking 10: 20 * DC 15 = 300= 30 GP/week
4200/27 = 140 weeks
Now, if we change those numbers a smidge:
Level 3 expert (and now assume he is human, half elf, half orc, or elf (+2 int) or gnome (+1 on craft))
3 rank + 3 class skill + 2 int + 3 skill focus + 2 masterwork tools +2 one lvl 1 expert assisting and take 10 = +15
Taking 10: 25 * DC 25 = 625= 62.5 GP/week
4200/62.5= 67 weeks
Add in a second apprentice:
Taking 10: 27 * DC 25 = 675= 67.5 GP/week
4200/62.5= 63 weeks
add in the feat for two apprentices:
Taking 10: 31 * DC 25 = 775= 77.5 GP/week
4200/62.5= 55 weeks
(I think that doubling is only for magic items, isn't it?)
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I think a potential problem with faster Crafting times is exaggerating the existing disconnect between the GP you can earn by 'practicing your Craft', and the GP profit you could earn by making stuff to sell.
Say you have a level 1 Craftsman, with a total +5 bonus in his Craft skill. He can take 10 for a 15 total and earn 7.5GP per week just 'practicing his Craft'. Or he could spend that week Crafting 'typical' items at DC 10 which, taking 10 again, means he Crafts 15GP worth of items a week, 10GP worth of which is (potentially) pure profit. The higher his Skill bonus, the worse the disconnect actually gets. Instead of 'typical' items, he could spend his time making 'high quality' items at DC 15. Now he's making 22.5GP worth of items a week, 15GP of which is pure profit. At a +10 bonus he could be Crafting DC 20 'complex or superior' items worth 40gp per week, for 26.67GP profit, as opposed to the 10GP he'd normally be earning for 'practicing his Craft'.
The 'practicing his Craft" payout is the net sum he would get after paying his living expenses and rent or taxes on his shop.
High quality stuff has a lower number of costumers so our average craftsman will not spend all his time producing that kind of stuff and not producing common items. the same for 'complex or superior' items (most people can't afford a DC 30 lock).
What most of them will do (and that is the point where the disconnection really appear) is to increase the DC by +10 to craft at extra speed as son as they will routinely succeed with the craft check.
The main problem of this disconnection is that the profit increase is linear with the increase of the skill while it should give noticeably better results when you reach some skill threshold.
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The 'practicing his Craft" payout is the net sum he would get after paying his living expenses and rent or taxes on his shop.
Not really... living expenses are a seperate part of the rules (page 405 of the core book).
The main problem of this disconnection is that the profit increase is linear with the increase of the skill while it should give noticeably better results when you reach some skill threshold.
The point is that while the 'practicing his Craft' earnings are a linear increase, the 'making stuff' earnings aren't, because as Skill bonus increases, Skill DC can increase in line, and the two are multipled together to get the 'how much value of stuff made' result.
However, if you are geographically limited, then you really just have to meet the needs of the local populace and they may not want all that many locks.
Sure... but you could also say that a guy with Profession (flower arranger) can't earn any ca$h from his Profession Skill in a little village on the edge of the wilderness. The point being, yes, circumstances change stuff, but that doesn't invalidate the basic premise of the disconnect between the two types of earnings... and the problems allowing stuff to be Crafted at a much faster rate would magnify.
The book also assumes that you can resale something for half it's retail price, so (for this academic exercise) let's say that there is unlimited demand for all goods and services at half the list price.
While the 'sell for half price' rule is a fast and dirty one for adventurers, it's a little insane to think it applies to all primary manufacturers. Sure, you could argue the toss about how much profit they can actually make (hence I mentioned '(potentially) pure profit'), how much time they need to spend setting up contacts, a customer base, etc., etc.... but unless you're into playing Papers and Paychecks it's still all pretty irrelevant. The point still stands that there's a disconnect between 'practicing his Craft' earnings and 'making stuff' value, which increasing the rate of manufacture would just exaggerate.
Another way of doing it, which would address the problem of the skill simply not scaling all that well as you progress would be to make the formula for value generated (Skill Check Result) x (Skill Check Result) instead of Skill Check Result x Skill Check DC.
That's almost how it's done anyway - once you're past the point where you can hit the DC by taking 10, you can safely start to increase the DC to increase the value made over a week. While the book lists a flat +10 to DC, it's not a huge leap to allow any increase to DC the Crafter wants (after all, you shouldn't be limited to exactly two Crafting speeds - slow and fast - this is handcrafted stuff, not a machine with two settings, you can be as careful or as quick as you choose to be). Allowing that means you do, essentially, end up with (Skill bonus+10) x (Skill bonus+10) value as long as you take 10 every week, and always set your Craft DC to be exactly what you can hit by taking 10.
Thus a wizard can sell all the first level spells he can cast at 5gp per day. If we assume he casts two spells a day and works 5 days a week, then he made a tidy profit of 50gp for that week.
A wizard makes as much ca$h as he gets based on his Profession (wizard) check if he wants to simply make money - there's no reason to assume anyone wants to buy his spells (and 1st level spells aren't the issue - the at will cantrips are... infinite ca$h anyone?). This is, in theory, what happens with the Crafter too - his weekly 'ca$h-making' roll for 'practicing his Craft' takes supply and demand and all that into account... which means that (by that logic) vastly increasing the rate of Crafting would indicate an equally vast drop-off in anyone actually wanting to buy stuff...
This is basically my problem with the system. I think those two figures need to be brought into parity. If we increase the value of the craftsman by a value of 10 (which would be done by saying Skill Checkx DC=gp generated per week), now we have the 5th level craftsman making about the same as the first level wizard. Which is what I'd like to see.
Boosting the ca$h made by using the Craft Skill would need an equal boost in the ca$h made by the Profession Skill to keep everything in line... and an equal boost in the basic rate of pay too (1GP per day for unskilled labourers)... otherwise you have a situation where no-one in their right mind has any job other than Crafting stuff... If you're going to do that, you may as well just reduce the price of all mundane gear to 10% its listed value instead.
The thing is, the game economics are fast and dirty because economics aren't, generally, considered terribly heroic by most people. The problem comes when you mess with the Craft Skill because it is an economics-related Skill - you're likely to throw an already flimsy system completely out of whack.
There's already a simple magical means to Craft stuff at 'PC speed' (Fabricate) and, although the logic of Crafting speeds breaks down pretty quickly if you look at too many examples, it's generally good enough for most groups who don't want or need anything more than a fast and dirty Crafting system.
As always, everyone's free to do what they want with their own game... but I'd advise being aware that speeding Crafting is going to have the potential for easy abuse... or at least a breakdown in game logic... if any of your players bother to look at that sort of thing (many, hopefully, won't anyway).
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The 'practicing his Craft" payout is the net sum he would get after paying his living expenses and rent or taxes on his shop.
Not really... living expenses are a seperate part of the rules (page 405 of the core book).
Look the example you made earlier:
"Say you have a level 1 Craftsman, with a total +5 bonus in his Craft skill. He can take 10 for a 15 total and earn 7.5GP per week just 'practicing his Craft'. Or he could spend that week Crafting 'typical' items at DC 10 which, taking 10 again, means he Crafts 15GP worth of items a week, 10GP worth of which is (potentially) pure profit. The higher his Skill bonus, the worse the disconnect actually gets. Instead of 'typical' items, he could spend his time making 'high quality' items at DC 15. Now he's making 22.5GP worth of items a week, 15GP of which is pure profit. At a +10 bonus he could be Crafting DC 20 'complex or superior' items worth 40gp per week, for 26.67GP profit, as opposed to the 10GP he'd normally be earning for 'practicing his Craft'."
Now run your numbers:
1) He can take 10 for a 15 total and earn 7.5GP per week just 'practicing his Craft'. = 30 GP month practising his craft
2) Or he could spend that week Crafting 'typical' items at DC 10 which, taking 10 again, means he Crafts 15GP worth of items a week, 10GP worth of which is (potentially) pure profit. = 40 gp month of pure profit
3) Difference 10 gp/month
4) Living expenses (page 405 of the core book). Average living, standard lifestyle for a expert: 10 gp/month
Taah-daah. We have found your missing 10 gp.
As I was saying, it is your crafter living expenses.
As what he earn goes up he will try to live better, so, as far as that is the problem in his gains it work well.
The problem is that the current system don't consider the threshold when our crafter became capable of routinely increasing his production thanks to the increase DC, so the times when he hit the +10 and +20 modifiers for common items, the +15 and +25 for high quality items.
The book also assumes that you can resale something for half it's retail price, so (for this academic exercise) let's say that there is unlimited demand for all goods and services at half the list price.
It is a resale price, not the price in a shop. Try selling back a used videogame. You will be happy to get 50% of what you did spend buying it.
It assume that you are selling the stuff to a merchant willing to invest in 20 used masterwork chain mails and wait some week/month to sell them to some client.If the players were willing to spend some month manning a shop they could get full price. But then they wouldn't be adventurers.
It is like magic items production. If you want to build them for trading you can't go for the "quick sell to the local pawnshop", you need to either advertise your craft and willingness to create magic items, waiting for a commission or you will be incanting "common" magic items, doing some advertising saying "John the mage sell magic swords" and waiting for costumers to came for you.
A option for adventurers could be, through roleplaying, to find a local guild or trader that would agree to sell your stuff for you, in exchange for a percentage of the sale price (from 25% to 10%). But you would get your money only when the item is sold (if it sell and if the merchant is honest).
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This problem disappears if we remove the assumption that they are able to sell the finished product for full list price.
I'd say it's mitigated slightly, rather than disappears. You then move onto the issue of the better, and higher value, things the Crafter can make, the less of the thing's overall value they get whilst selling it (in order to keep their ca$h per week in line with their 'practicing their Craft' ca$h per week). There's simply no economic logic to it once you start to look... which isn't terrible, in and of itself, since the game generally isn't about economics... but it does get worse if you start to ramp up Crafting speeds without due consideration to the overall effects that has.
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So let me see if I'm understanding this correctly:
I want to make a belt of giant strength +6 for 16,000gp. Since the market price is 32,000gp, it would normally take me 32 days to craft (or one month).
If I'm willing to add +5 to the DC, I can work twice as fast and get it done in 16 days.
With Cooperative Crafting and an assistant with the same skill/magic item crafting feat, I can also get it done in 16 days (without increasing the DC).
If I work with Coorperative Crafting, an assistant, AND rush the process (adding +5 to the DC) I can get it done in only 8 days.
Does that sound right to everyone?
I think so. You've really left crafting and gone over the Spellcraft and Crafting Wonderous Items, but sure.
It was my impression that this feat was made for magic item crafting (since it has an item creation feat as a prerequisite) and that the only benefit you get for mundane crafting is the +2 skill bonus.
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Another way of doing it, which would address the problem of the skill simply not scaling all that well as you progress would be to make the formula for value generated (Skill Check Result) x (Skill Check Result) instead of Skill Check Result x Skill Check DC.
If we say that Skill Check Result squared is equal to the gp value of items generated by week, then we'd see this progression with level (assuming they can take 10):
First Level (+7 Skill Check)= 17 x 17= 289 gp per week, or 49 gp per week profit
Fifth Level (+11 Skill Check)= 21x21= 441 per week, or 75 gp per week profit.
This also eliminates the wonky quirk or being able to make something faster the harder it is to make.
Funny - I had a very similar idea last night. I mentioned a while back that, when calculating the time to make something, multiplying the skill check x the DC seemed weird; why would it be faster to make something more difficult?
So I was wondering what would happen if you just dropped the xDC out of the crafting rate formula? In general, DCs range from 10-20, so dropping it would make things 10-20 time slower, right? But if you combined this with one of my ideas from above (switching from sp/week to gp/week [10x faster], or sp/week to sp/day [7x faster], or the most extreme, to gp/day [70x faster!]), it might result in something more reasonable.
Your output would just be based off your skill check, not off DCs. DCs would still matter on the success of your projects, and working faster or while adventuring would still up the DCs and result in occasional failures, but the time calculations would be greatly simplified.
Take Preston's +7 skill check guy from above. Combined w/ my Idea 1 (sp>gp), he'd generate on average 17 gp of product per week. Combined w/ my Idea 2 (weeks>days), he'd generate 17 sp of product per day, or 11.9 gp per week. Both of which are faster than normal, but not game breakingly so. [Idea 3 (gp/day) would generate 17 gp/day or 119/week, which does seem absurdly high].
EDIT: Hmmm. Actually, 17 gp/wk is slower than the old formula. The +7 guy would be generating about that much if he were working on DC 10 stuff. He'd be generating about 33 gp/wk if working on DC 20 stuff.
The xDC part of the formula seems to offer a way deal with the massive price jumps once you get to special materials and really expensive stuff, and gives less to the cheap stuff so nobody ends up knocking out light shields in 15 minutes.
Preston's idea of (Skill Check)^2 enables a high-level crafter to effectively make the expensive stuff, but the cheap stuff is ridiculously fast. Economics-wise, that's a problem, but game-wise, you're never going to have an 8th-level Expert trying to corner the market on simple locks. They'd specialize in the high price, high DC stuff. No, not every village could support that, but then, not every village has an 8th-level Expert.
One other point, on something ProfPotts wrote:
Boosting the ca$h made by using the Craft Skill would need an equal boost in the ca$h made by the Profession Skill to keep everything in line... and an equal boost in the basic rate of pay too (1GP per day for unskilled labourers)... otherwise you have a situation where no-one in their right mind has any job other than Crafting stuff... If you're going to do that, you may as well just reduce the price of all mundane gear to 10% its listed value instead.
The limiting factor here is opportunity. Golarion is a decent place to live, but it ain't equal opportunity. In our own world, there were plenty of peasants in the Middle Ages who had the potential and brain-power to become rich merchants, they just didn't have opportunity. For the vast majority of the population, you don't get to pick your profession - you do what dad did. The middle class might have some flexibility, nobles certainly did, and PCs do because they are special people, but very few commoners can "choose" to go into Crafting. West Indian Archie from the Malcolm X book/movie is a good example - he had the mind of a rocket scientist but the only avenue open to him at the time was to become a bookie. He was never able to realize his full potential. So, yeah, being a Crafter is a pretty good deal, A LOT better than being a laborer or dirt farmer. Too bad that not everyone can take advantage of it.
So Preston- What formula are you favoring at this point? (Skill Check)^2 = sp/week? Or gp/week? Let's settle on a preliminary formula and run some numbers to see if/where it breaks down.
This problem disappears if we remove the assumption that they are able to sell the finished product for full list price.
Just so. There's a market for manufactured goods, but the sort of stuff adventurers need is expensive and most people have no use for it. The various Craft skills let you create those items, but if you want to make a living you have to build things people can afford-- using the standard rules for using the Craft skill to make a living.
The Craft rules are still wonky, but at least we can work on them without threatening to break the economy.