After reading up on some various CR 1/3 creatures, ranging from the Village Idiot, to the Goblin, to the Orc, I found some HUGE power differences.
The thing that really struck me was the orc's damage output. Attacking with a falchion +5 (2d4+4/18–20)! This puts it in the CR 2-3 range, which would be fine if almost every other thing about the creature was weak, however...
HP - A quick glance at the numbers shows the orc with a humble 6 hp. But, then you have to add in Ferocity. An orc functionally has almost 18 hp before it drops! Again, these numbers are closer to the CR 1-2 range.
In another thread, String Burka wrote:
Actually, now that I look at it, bugbears are REALLY sub-par for their CR. Some vital statistics:
Bugbear Average for CR
AC 17 14 <---- okay, a fair bit above.
HP 16 20 <- below
Attack 5 4 <- slightly above
Damage 7 10 <- BIG TIME below!
Save 4/1 5/1 <- below
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The Bugbear is the perfect example of a creature which did not transition well into 3rd edition.
Keep in mind that at a CR 2 this guy is supposed to burn off around 20% of resources for a 4-5 PC team all at Level 2.
As vuron stated in the other thread a fix for the Bugbear might be to increase its size one step, take in the changes and see if it still holds at a CR 2.
The issue with the orc is just the weapon, though. When using orcs against low-level players I usually have them with javelins and clubs or hand axes (if barbaric) or heavy crossbows and longswords (if civilized). Ferocity isn't that big of an issue due to it's limitations on offensive output when active (being staggered). So the orc is really easy to "fix".
It seems to be more an issue with higher-cr humanoids.
As vuron stated in the other thread a fix for the Bugbear might be to increase its size one step, take in the changes and see if it still holds at a CR 2.
I don't like the idea of the bugbear as large as it really changes the flavor of the creature IMO. I'd much rather prefer some odd +1d6 sneak attack ability of the race (which would actually put the damage right when sneak attacking - which balances well, as low hit points, high AC and slightly higher to hit averages out well).
Creative Director
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Humanoid creatures are really swingy when it comes to CR scores, particularly at low level. Put that bugbear in plate mail, and pow, his armor class is through the roof. Give him a dagger, and his damage drops even more, but give him a two-handed weapon and POW again too high.
And that's fine, to tell the truth. CR isn't supposed to be 100% accurate. It's supposed to give you a way to ballpark monster toughness, and to be able to assign XP totals for them.
Character classed creatures also mess wit CR as well. According to the rules as written, a 20th level commoner would be CR 18—the same as a kraken. Obviously that's not right.
CR is a tool. Don't be afraid to change it if you feel that it's off. Table 1–1 in the Bestiary helps a LOT in setting monsters to CR scores, but even then, monsters aren't cookie cutters. They're all over the place. Seeing something like a bugbear, which has a high value in one category (AC or attack rolls) but a low value in another (hp and damage) is normal.
The issue with the orc is just the weapon, though. When using orcs against low-level players I usually have them with javelins and clubs or hand axes (if barbaric) or heavy crossbows and longswords (if civilized). Ferocity isn't that big of an issue due to it's limitations on offensive output when active (being staggered). So the orc is really easy to "fix".
It seems to be more an issue with higher-cr humanoids.
I do the same. I usually have them use battleaxe and shield, or something like that.
When reduced to below 0 HP, orcs are staggered, but you can still take standard actions, and charge and use the withdraw actions (both limited to single moves).
I guess my thought is that orcs should be CR 1/2 or 1, or that Ferocity should be changed to Orc Ferocity*.
*Orc Ferocity = Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for one more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
PS Quick question - If I add non-key classes to a creature, the first level doesn't affect the CR? It just seems odd that you get the ability score increases, all the benefits of an extra HD, and class abilities, and the CR isn't affected, until you take that second level.
Hit points are quite easy to balance. Just assume you "rolled higher".
I (very, very rarely) do it when I want an "elite" opponent wich is not more deadly (I do the latter switching few feats).
Yeah, bugbears were just the next size up on the humanoid steamroller.
Kobolds at 1/2 HD
Goblins at 1-1
Orcs at 1
Hobgobs at 1+1
Gnolls at 2
Bugbears at 3+1
Ogres at 4+1
Trolls at 6+6
And finally the Giants start at Hill Giants, 8 + 1-2.
bugbears got a +1 or +2 bonus to suprise (hey, I can't remember everything) and did okay dmg. Stick some armor on them and they had okay AC, too. but in 1E, they never had class levels, just more HD and more HP.
===Aelryinth
Hit points are quite easy to balance. Just assume you "rolled higher".
Increasing hit points isn't a good idea, seeing as how effects that doesn't take hit points into consideration are already considered too good among many players. Increasing hit points further reduces the use for hit points damage.
I don't have much issue with a creature that's a bit to tough or weak when talking about survivability - whether a creature has 14 or 16 AC doesn't matter that much, unless it has a decent damage output, because you can easily outmaneuver it. And the reverse is true; if damage output is too high, survivability doesn't matter that much either, because it can one-hit KO a player if it gets to act first.
Hit points are quite easy to balance. Just assume you "rolled higher".
Increasing hit points isn't a good idea, seeing as how effects that doesn't take hit points into consideration are already considered too good among many players. Increasing hit points further reduces the use for hit points damage.
I don't have much issue with a creature that's a bit to tough or weak when talking about survivability - whether a creature has 14 or 16 AC doesn't matter that much, unless it has a decent damage output, because you can easily outmaneuver it. And the reverse is true; if damage output is too high, survivability doesn't matter that much either, because it can one-hit KO a player if it gets to act first.
If you have time, then adding a class level and/or changing equipment is a great way to fix an encounter to be just the way you want it.
When I don't have time, I like to make sure my 'fixes' are fairly balanced across the different strategies may be employed. A really quick way to to that is to raise either offense, defense, or both by 20%. It's easy to figure in your head because it's +1 per five points of the original number.
Defense = AC and saves
Offense = attack bonus and save DC on attacks
It's not a perfect formula, but it even-handed enough that you're not invalidating anyone's character, and since you have at most 6 numbers to modify with a simple formula, it never takes more than a minute.
If you have time, then adding a class level and/or changing equipment is a great way to fix an encounter to be just the way you want it.
When I don't have time, I like to make sure my 'fixes' are fairly balanced across the different strategies may be employed. A really quick way to to that is to raise either offense, defense, or both by 20%. It's easy to figure in your head because it's +1 per five points of the original number.
Defense = AC and saves
Offense = attack bonus and save DC on attacksIt's not a perfect formula, but it even-handed enough that you're not invalidating anyone's character, and since you have at most 6 numbers to modify with a simple formula, it never takes more than a minute.
Agreed. I don't care much for CR anyway except as a very rough guideline so it's not that much of an issue for me in practical gameplay. Actually, I don't see it as that much of an issue at all, except that it's for low-CR monsters that newbie game masters are likely to throw at newbie players. The reason why the bugbear was mentioned at all was really just because it was used as an example encounter in another thread, and I commented on the bugbear being weak as written.
But giving +1 per +5 isn't equal to increasing offensive power by 20% at all, mathematically. For people below +5 it increases by 0%, and for others it varies a lot based on chance to hit before.
Changing equipment and tactics really makes a difference for the difficulty of an encounter. I can easily design an encounter with three goblins that is likely to cause 1st level PC death just by giving them a decent ranged weapon and putting them on large range. And that's a standard encounter, a speed bump normally.
CR is a reeaaally rough guideline; encounter design can usually increase or decrease the CR of an encounter by 1, 2 or even 3 points. I could easily design an encounter made of monsters equaling CR 2 that would be more difficult and taxing than a single CR 5 monster that's encountered under better (for the PC's) circumstances.
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I don't think the CR's are too far off, sure if you just look at the numbers they might seem off. But if you play the monster how it is designed it becomes better. For example the Bugbear...have you read the monsters revisted...doesn't really just have to come right out and attack the party. Terrorize them first, let him 'feed' off their fear. After all it's what they do! And honestly when the party realizes it's just a bugbear, granted the fight may be short but the relief is wonderful.
Just like Orcs aren't all blazing charge right in homicidal maniacs as some run them. They do have a degree of intelligence and if there are more than one (I hope there are) being militant why would they not use tactics in a fight? Their ferocity and fighting into the negatives is a nice bonus to that.
Just my thoughts...could just be the way I play the encounters.
Also if I feel the encounter was more difficult than the CR or easier than the CR indicates I do adjust XP accordingly.
Just my two cents. :D
Orcs are probably closer to a CR 1/2 instead of a CR 1/3 mainly due to their high strength and weapon choice. Like other people have suggested the falchion ends up being a pretty lethal weapon in the hands of a Orc warrior or god forbid a Orc Barbarian 1.
While the shift to falchions removes some of the instant overkill nature of a orc warrior inflicting a great axe crit (seriously what were they thinking with that statblock?) it's still pretty lethal.
I pretty much go with the suggestions other have made in regards to orcs and replace the falchion with a battle axe and shield. The axe is still a deadly weapon (x3 crit) and can still be used two-handed if needed but the additional flexibility of a shield and the decrease in DPR is quite nice.
Not to mention that the falchion is ridiculously expensive and thus an excellent source of loot. 75 gp falchion vs a 10 gp battle axe + 3-7 gp shield is a nice shift.
I don't use Bugbears much at all despite liking them conceptually. Other than a single bugbear being an good ambush encounter for first level PCs I don't find them particularly conducive to many encounter designs.
They don't function well in a group because their high CR value and low HPs mean that they are extremely vulnerable to AoE effects. This limits their utility as bodyguards and mooks.
The large modification I proposed in the other thread gives them a new concept that buffs them considerably but also works somewhat with their established fluff. A large, sneaky humanoid is somewhat of a missing category right now and I kinda like the idea of 3 different sizes of goblinoids from a symmetry perspective.
Assuming a +4 str, -2 dex, +2 con modification for being a large humanoid we'd have something like:
Str-20 Dex-11 Con-15 Int-10 Wis-10 Cha-9
Attack Bonus would go up +1 (+2 str, -1 size)
Damage would go up +2
HPs would go up 6
AC would stay the same (+2 natural armor, -1 size, - 1 dex)
Which would make for a good CR 2 except for the reach increase which probably brings the bugbear up outside of comfortable CR 2 range.
So realistically what you probably want to do is actually keep the bugbear medium (unless you really change the vision significantly) and then boost the strength and con by +2 each and change the weapon choice from the morning-star to something like a great axe.
Toughness + Weapon Focus would be other possible solutions but I prefer giving DMs feat options rather than locking them into a tight configuration in order to meet CR thresholds.
Humanoid creatures are really swingy when it comes to CR scores, particularly at low level. Put that bugbear in plate mail, and pow, his armor class is through the roof. Give him a dagger, and his damage drops even more, but give him a two-handed weapon and POW again too high.
And that's fine, to tell the truth. CR isn't supposed to be 100% accurate. It's supposed to give you a way to ballpark monster toughness, and to be able to assign XP totals for them.
Character classed creatures also mess wit CR as well. According to the rules as written, a 20th level commoner would be CR 18—the same as a kraken. Obviously that's not right.
CR is a tool. Don't be afraid to change it if you feel that it's off. Table 1–1 in the Bestiary helps a LOT in setting monsters to CR scores, but even then, monsters aren't cookie cutters. They're all over the place. Seeing something like a bugbear, which has a high value in one category (AC or attack rolls) but a low value in another (hp and damage) is normal.
James, are you aware that the rules for NPCs conflict with one another? If you follow the 1 line in the Gamemastering section that suggests that NPC-classed characters have a CR equal to their level -2, then you will get bogus results 100% of the time.
However, if you follow the rules given for creature advancement in the bestiary rules, you get far, far more usable results. For example, a 20th level human commoner would begin at CR 1/4 or 1/3rd, and then advance one step for every 2 CR you put on him, so he'd be about CR 8-9 with gear equivalent to an 8th-9th level heroic NPC; and honestly, that's right in line when about how strong a 20th level commoner with that amount of gear would be.
20th level commoner with 3pb NPC stats, built as a non-heroic melee PC could easily have about 110 Hp, 20 Strength, 10 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha, and the Toughness feat, before magic items. He'd have a +10/+5 attack routine before modifiers, and he could power attack for +9 damage with a 2 handed weapon (such as a scythe, which makes sense for this epic farmer), and would have a +6 to all saving throws before modifiers. He'd have enough feats to acquire some armor proficiency and some fighting capabilities. He could also afford a mount, train the mount, and ride on the mount (oxen are 15 gp and make good mounts since they use herd animal stats = CR 2 aurochs) with barding); and can afford a couple of minor magic items (perhaps a couple of potions as consumables; enlarge person would make him a giant scythe-cleaving commoner for 10 rounds), and perhaps a cloak of resistance.
However, I personally think the commoner NPC class should probably have a stipulation that it only adds +1 CR for every 3 levels or so, as opposed to every 2 (like most NPC classes), 'cause it really is meant to be inferior in every regard.
Likewise, a gnoll with 20 levels of warrior would be around the CR 11 range, with also works perfectly well; as I showed in another thread a while back.
As for the CRs of NPCs, I rather like the fact humanoid enemies are to be taken seriously. From kobolds to orcs, all of them are nasty. With standard NPC gear, they can generally afford 4 flasks of acid as consumables (kobolds with point blank shot + flasks = bad news lizards), and get their bite from their weapons. Fighting orcs with glaives? Stay away from them, use cover, total defense when they come for you, 5ft step, sunder their glaive (hardness 5, not too many HP), beat them down.
The thing with NPCs are, they're also heavily gear dependent. Yes, their armor makes them stronger. Yes their weapons make them stronger. But they have a different set of weaknesses than stuff like CR 1/3 dogs do. A pack of dogs is a completely different ballgame than a pack of orcs, and a pack of kobolds is a different ballgame.
Heck, dogs are CR 1/3, kobolds are CR 1/4; but my players fear the kobolds more 9/10 times. Goblins are a different encounter than orcs, but they're the same CR (goblins have a surprisingly solid +hit with their ranged weapons, and a group of goblins focus-firing on a single member of the party can take 'em down quickly).
Personally, I see no problem with their stats. CR works great for me.
As for the bugbears, it looks to my like Paizo didn't want GMs to murder their PCs with the basic NPCs. If you look at the bugbear, he's sorely under-geared. His treasure says NPC gear, so he should have NPC gear appropriate to his CR. However they outfitted him with the 2nd worst armor he could wear, the worst shield in the game, and a one handed weapon that doesn't take advantage of his solid strength modifier. This was a smart thing for Paizo to do because its still a pretty solid NPC if used correctly (notice its Stealth modifiers and the like).
So say for a moment we actually use some of his NPC gear appropriately. We arm the bugbear with a chain shirt (+2 AC), a heavy wooden shield (+1 AC), if we want him to be more of a tank instead of a stealthy surprise attacker. If we want the bugbear to be part of a murderous party of assassins, drop the morningstar and give them a masterwork longspear that takes advantage of his strength (+6 to hit, 1d8+4 damage, reach) so he can flank more easily. If you want a pure killer bugbear, grab a potion of enlarge person with the 80gp his NPC gear allots, and his longspear becomes a 20ft reach weapon for 2d6+6 damage for 10 rounds.
Still CR 2! :D
The NPCs in the bestiary are pretty much always unfinished. They only list a couple of mundane weapons + "NPC Gear", which lets the GM shift around their gear and equipment for however they need to be specialized; but their CR stays the same.
To me, it's mostly just the bugbear that bugs me, because it just feels like an orc with a few extra humanoid HD. I'd like to give it something more unique, but I think large size is too much.
What about giving it this?
Tall and massive (ex)
Bugbears are larger than most other medium-sized humanoids. As such, whenever they take a penalty to attack rolls with weapons not made for their size, they only take half the normal penalty, or the same penalty as a Large creature, whichever is less. Thus, a bugbear using a large morningstar takes a -1 penalty to attacks, and one using a ballista takes a -2 penalty on it's attack rolls. They still use weapons as a creature of their size; a medium-sized bugbear has to use two hands to wield a large morningstar.
Changed stat block:
AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+2 armor, +1 Dex, +3 natural)
Large morningstar +4 (2d6+4, 20x2)
Javelin +3 (1d6+3)
Ballista +1 (3d8, 19-20x2) (only if prepared ambush, stationary weapon)
AC would be closer to average, damage in melee would be slightly above (but attack bonus is back at the right point) and ranged attacks are either far below average chance to hit but high damage, or slightly below average chance to hit but low damage.
According to the rules as written, a 20th level commoner would be CR 18—the same as a kraken. Obviously that's not right.
I would really honestly flee from that commoner much faster than the kraken. The kraken is born a gigantic killing machine. It has undisputed might. It is the apex predator for everything else that lives or goes into the ocean. It has spell-like abilities.
A commoner started out with nothing but a pitchfork and a willful pig at level one. He is only proficient in one kind of simple weapon. He cannot use armors or shields. His ability score line up is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8. And this guy managed to kill three-million six-hundred-thousand experience points worth of creatures.
Gigantic creature made for killing. Timid pig herder. Which one obviously has to be one stone cold monstrous lord of fire and murder to get where they are?
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A commoner started out with nothing but a pitchfork and a willful pig at level one. He is only proficient in one kind of simple weapon. He cannot use armors or shields. His ability score line up is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8. And this guy managed to kill three-million six-hundred-thousand experience points worth of creatures.
Gigantic creature made for killing. Timid pig herder. Which one obviously has to be one stone cold monstrous lord of fire and murder to get where they are?
I am laughing so hard at this... :)
According to the rules as written, a 20th level commoner would be CR 18—the same as a kraken. Obviously that's not right.I would really honestly flee from that commoner much faster than the kraken. The kraken is born a gigantic killing machine. It has undisputed might. It is the apex predator for everything else that lives or goes into the ocean. It has spell-like abilities.
A commoner started out with nothing but a pitchfork and a willful pig at level one. He is only proficient in one kind of simple weapon. He cannot use armors or shields. His ability score line up is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8. And this guy managed to kill three-million six-hundred-thousand experience points worth of creatures.
Gigantic creature made for killing. Timid pig herder. Which one obviously has to be one stone cold monstrous lord of fire and murder to get where they are?
*dies laughing*
A friend of mine did this once. When he noticed that statistically there is one 20th+ level commoner in a metropolis, based on the 3.x DMG generation methods, he couldn't help but stat up the commoner. He was an epic commoner, with a couple epic feats, and he wielded a scythe which he also used to tend his fields. He was something of a local hero and legend, but he was very modest. Up until the point some of his players started busting up the farmer's town...At which point, they were astounded when they got schooled by a commoner. :P
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To me, it's mostly just the bugbear that bugs me, because it just feels like an orc with a few extra humanoid HD. I'd like to give it something more unique, but I think large size is too much.
Personally I think the Stealth and Perception skills in their stat block and the discription of the actual tactics they use makes them unique (and dangerous) enough. Bugbears aren't built to be mooks or bodyguards... there are plenty of similar enough monsters already built to do that. Bugbears are psycho-serial-killers. They go round and slaughter your family whilst you're off adventuring. They sneak into your camp and lay a coup-de-grace on your sleeping face. They kick your dog... It's their nature of goblinoid evil...
A commoner started out with nothing but a pitchfork and a willful pig at level one. He is only proficient in one kind of simple weapon. He cannot use armors or shields. His ability score line up is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8. And this guy managed to kill three-million six-hundred-thousand experience points worth of creatures.
Didn't Jason Statham play that guy in that Dungeon Siege movie? ;)
A commoner started out with nothing but a pitchfork and a willful pig at level one. He is only proficient in one kind of simple weapon. He cannot use armors or shields. His ability score line up is 13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8. And this guy managed to kill three-million six-hundred-thousand experience points worth of creatures.Didn't Jason Statham play that guy in that Dungeon Siege movie? ;)
That's it. I'm watching that movie tonight.
To me, it's mostly just the bugbear that bugs me, because it just feels like an orc with a few extra humanoid HD. I'd like to give it something more unique, but I think large size is too much.Personally I think the Stealth and Perception skills in their stat block and the discription of the actual tactics they use makes them unique (and dangerous) enough. Bugbears aren't built to be mooks or bodyguards... there are plenty of similar enough monsters already built to do that. Bugbears are psycho-serial-killers. They go round and slaughter your family whilst you're off adventuring. They sneak into your camp and lay a coup-de-grace on your sleeping face.
Yeah, but there's plenty of common humans that can do that. I realize that bugbears are more sneaky than orcs (usually) are, but orcs can be sneaky to without too much trouble. At least 3rd level orc rangers, which have the same CR as a bugbear.
Bugbears are sneaky bastards, but anyone can kill your family of 1st level commoners - you don't become CR2 because you can do that. Sure, they're not that bad, but they're not really good as "psycho-serial-killers" since they're bad at killing things if taken straight out of the bestiary. They're also not welcome in most communities and have a hard time disguising themselves, so they're more suited for ambushing lone travelers for fun than being an American Psycho kind of guy.
Yes, they have a good stealth modifier, but they've got nothing at all except that to help them with actually being sneaky guys. And a good stealth modifier isn't really enough, especially when it's a stealth modifier that any 3rd level character with stealth as a class skill can match. A 3rd level orc warrior with skill focus (stealth) can be at least as good at sneaking and fighting and is CR1.
EDIT:
To actually compare them, this is a 3 hd orc warrior/expert focused on being a "sneaky serial killer", kind of like the bugbear:
Orc warrior 2/expert 1
CE Medium humanoid
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft. ; Perception +8
Weakness light sensitivity
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 11, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +1 dex)
hp 17 (2d10+1d6+3)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Defensive Abilities ferocity
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mwk greatsword +5 (2d6+3/19–20)
Ranged javelin +1 (1d6+3)
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 7, Wis 8, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +4; CMD 14
Feats Focus (Stealth), Focus (Perception)
Skills Stealth +9 (+10 without armor), Perception +8
Languages Common, Orc
SQ weapon familiarity
Just as a note:
If we ever stat up a 20th level commoner and put that dude in print... I'm doing my job wrong and deserve all the mockery the internet can fling at me.
I dunno, he sounds pretty darn epic to me!
-The Gneech
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To actually compare them, this is a 3 hd orc warrior/expert focused on being a "sneaky serial killer", kind of like the bugbear:...
Well sure, if you're talking about custom-designing your humanoids then yes, you can make them functionally better than the 'standards' shown in the Bestiary. You can do that to the Bugbear without raising his CR too. For a start, even if you take both 'Combat' and 'Skill' as 'key' roles for a Bugbear, you can still give him a level of a caster class and not change his CR. You can give him all his equipment, not just the stuff listed. You can swap out his Intimidating Prowess for Skill Focus (Stealth), heck - you could swap out his Skill Focus (Perception) for Stealthy as well, if you want to go crazy, and he ends up with a Stealth of +15. Sneaky Bagginezzz :)
Anyway... by 'psycho-serial-killer' I was thinking more 'Jason at the lake' slasher-flick killer than the yuppie dude in American Psycho... ;)
To actually compare them, this is a 3 hd orc warrior/expert focused on being a "sneaky serial killer", kind of like the bugbear:...Well sure, if you're talking about custom-designing your humanoids then yes, you can make them functionally better than the 'standards' shown in the Bestiary.
Yeah, the thing is, this is a CR1 creature, used the way it should be used (since humanoids with 1 racial hd are defined through class levels) more or less equal to the bugbear out of the book. It's using NPC classes, non-optimized and so on. An optimized CR2 orc rogue/fighter would be something very different, of course.
The thing is, I think a CR2 creature out of the book should be about equal to a non-optimized CR2 NPC. When it's roughly equal to a CR1 NPC, somethings off. Yes, you can improve the bugbear through customization - you don't even need to add class levels, you can just swap his equipment. I think that should be more of the standard though, rather than customization. The bugbear out of the book isn't really a good serial killer, which he should be. Yes, he's effective at killing commoners - but so is about any creature. As a CR2 creature, he should be about equal to two CR 1/2 creature or three CR 1/3 creatures. Two bugbears should be about equal to a CR 4 creature. All these considering similiar levels of encounter difficulty in other circumstances.
Yes, you can make CR 2 encounters with a bugbear, but it requires more modifications and odd scenarios than it does with other CR2 creatures.
See it like this:
Humanoid HD are slightly worse than Warrior levels, but let's call them equal (they've got somewhat better class skills, at least).
A 3rd level warrior is CR 1 plus whatever racial modifiers are appropriate. The question is, is the bugbears modifiers enough to warrant a +1? They ARE more powerful than CR +0, clearly, but doesn't seem to hold up to CR +1.
This is reminding me of the time my players encountered a group of 3 bugbears in a cave. They were maybe 3rd level at the time. The scout sneaked up and peaked inside. He came back and reported the 3 bugbears. The group decides they would be easy pickings and charged inside.
What they didn't realize is that I had given the bugbears a level of barbarian. A few rounds later and everyone but the gnomish wizard was incapacitated. The gnome begins to parlay and eventually they traded the groups horses for their lives. Good times!
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Stringburka: You make a lot of fair points.
I guess the thing about creatures like the Bugbear is that a lot of their 'challenge' is rolled into their described tactics, and their ability to use those tactics. Creatures using unusually effective tactics (for them as listed) should generally be worth a higher CR (Ad Hoc CR adjustments). For the Bugbear, using indirect psychological attacks (targeting friends and loved ones - be it murder or kidnapping or torture or whatever), stalking the PCs, attacking them only when they're at their weakest... all that's business as usual - playing them that way is playing them to their CR 2. The issues tend to arise when someone plays them as 'foot soldier' mooks... and is shocked when they drop easily.
Put another way, creatures like the Bugbear are as much about Skill-based challenges as they are about straight combat. Perception to spot them tailing you, watching as you exhaust your spells and healing power, waiting until you go to sleep, then sneaking past your one guy on watch to coup-de-grace you as you sleep (or just leave your horse's head in your bedroll... ;) ). Survival to track them after they've attacked you... or your family. Figuring out how to get the Bugbear without endangering little Molly whom the monster has kidnapped and is preparing to torture... You know... all that fun stuff!
It's not that other monsters, or even regular guys, can't do that stuff... it's that the CR is taking into account the Bugbear's tendency to do that stuff on a regular basis.
Of course, depending on prefered play style, those sorts of tactics can be valued more or less, or seen as more or less challenging.
All In My Humble Opinion, as always... :)
Stringburka: You make a lot of fair points.
I guess the thing about creatures like the Bugbear is that a lot of their 'challenge' is rolled into their described tactics, and their ability to use those tactics. Creatures using unusually effective tactics (for them as listed) should generally be worth a higher CR (Ad Hoc CR adjustments). For the Bugbear, using indirect psychological attacks (targeting friends and loved ones - be it murder or kidnapping or torture or whatever), stalking the PCs, attacking them only when they're at their weakest... all that's business as usual - playing them that way is playing them to their CR 2. The issues tend to arise when someone plays them as 'foot soldier' mooks... and is shocked when they drop easily.
Put another way, creatures like the Bugbear are as much about Skill-based challenges as they are about straight combat. Perception to spot them tailing you, watching as you exhaust your spells and healing power, waiting until you go to sleep, then sneaking past your one guy on watch to coup-de-grace you as you sleep (or just leave your horse's head in your bedroll... ;) ). Survival to track them after they've attacked you... or your family. Figuring out how to get the Bugbear without endangering little Molly whom the monster has kidnapped and is preparing to torture... You know... all that fun stuff!
It's not that other monsters, or even regular guys, can't do that stuff... it's that the CR is taking into account the Bugbear's tendency to do that stuff on a regular basis.
Of course, depending on prefered play style, those sorts of tactics can be valued more or less, or seen as more or less challenging.
All In My Humble Opinion, as always... :)
Agreed, 100%. Bugbears aren't for diving into combat and taking enemies head-on. That's what orcs do (who have above-average attack/damage for their CRs). That's what hobgoblins might do, but bugbears? Seems more like they would use their scent quality, and other abilities to stalk about on a party and do mean things. Like I said earlier, I think this is why their gear isn't very great (leather armor has no CP, though I think dumping the shield and wearing MWK Studded leather would have been better).
The answer is simple: hand-wave the necessary stats. If they start citing the Beastiary just go "that's the suggested stats"
there is nothing wrong with giving your monsters class levels, just like there is nothing wrong with changing feats nor gear? if i want to use optimized power attacking bardiche wielding, spiked gauntlet wearing, chainmail clad, raging orc barbarians with pc stats, than so be it. i'll even consider them a slightly higher CR than normal for the purpose of XP gain by sheer virtue of how nasty they are in combat.
but by the same token
if a save or die spell negates the monster's ability to pose any challenge at all, no XP for that monster because there was no challenge.
expect hordes of lesser CR'ed but practically optimized foes using any bonus they can get. but at the same time, expect some of them to occasionally have on the spot personalities that may drive certain actions and allow a potential bypass of part of the mob.
like selling that pretty elven female in the group to the orcish leader as a domestic slave. maybe the tribe could offer a favor one day and the lass could return at a higher level with a few extra minor goodies like a few free extra skill ranks in some more domestic tasks for example.
there is nothing wrong with giving your monsters class levels, just like there is nothing wrong with changing feats nor gear? if i want to use optimized power attacking bardiche wielding, spiked gauntlet wearing, chainmail clad, raging orc barbarians with pc stats, than so be it. i'll even consider them a slightly higher CR than normal for the purpose of XP gain by sheer virtue of how nasty they are in combat.
but by the same token
if a save or die spell negates the monster's ability to pose any challenge at all, no XP for that monster because there was no challenge.
Awww Shuriken, say it ain't so. :(
If a player uses a save or die spell on the creature and it fails then the player overcame the challenge. Is that worth less experience than waiting for the creature to go to sleep and then sneaking past it (also awards XP)?We don't have to rob the players or even overpower the encounters to make them interesting and challenging. :o
there is nothing wrong with giving your monsters class levels, just like there is nothing wrong with changing feats nor gear? if i want to use optimized power attacking bardiche wielding, spiked gauntlet wearing, chainmail clad, raging orc barbarians with pc stats, than so be it. i'll even consider them a slightly higher CR than normal for the purpose of XP gain by sheer virtue of how nasty they are in combat.
but by the same token
if a save or die spell negates the monster's ability to pose any challenge at all, no XP for that monster because there was no challenge.
Awww Shuriken, say it ain't so. :(
If a player uses a save or die spell on the creature and it fails then the player overcame the challenge. Is that worth less experience than waiting for the creature to go to sleep and then sneaking past it (also awards XP)?We don't have to rob the players or even overpower the encounters to make them interesting and challenging. :o
assuming i were to even track XP, i would give more based on the difficulty. but if i were to DM, i ussually ditch the concept of experience points altogether and gives levels based on plot. i would prefer to give other boons in thier stead that discourage wanton slaughter. i may even give pcs a little extra spending money and choose not to bother with mundane expenses less than a gold piece in nature. such benefits include a variant of NPC boons. so the XP thing is usually moot. i also try to discourage loot goggles. that minor noble you befriended last week may offer to commission that fancy sword you desire out of gratitude for whatever favor you performed to earn it.
but yes, i would give potentially double XP for sneaking past sleeping monsters without waking them up. i would give no xp for that wail of the banshee you dropped upon those poor defenseless children. is what i meant to say.
i would also give no XP for any combination of abilities by a single pc to take out a jabberwocky in one round at level 10 singlehandedly.
my definition of save or die is rather broad and different than most.
i expand it to mean any ability that takes out a drastically more powerful creature singlehandedly in a single round. in other words, a monster with a CR equal to twice your level or higher.
sometimes i feel i have to minmax even my mooks to make them relevant.
i wouldn't send those minmaxed orc barbarians i mentioned against a 1st level party anyway. i likely would against a 3rd level one. i'd definitely use them against a 5th level party.
Thanks for explaining it. I agree that you shouldn't get XP for slaughtering non-combatants (though I'm 99% sure don't anyway :P); and I can see the rest as kind of house rules and what-not. Thanks for explaining. :)