What!?! That mean 'ol archer! :)
I'm pretty excited for my next level (CL 7, so Monk 6/Inq 1) for this guy. It's a three feat windfall! Weapon Specialization, Spider Step (run up walls!) and Parting Shot.
"BTW, big bad melee dude... I'm going to use the withdraw action to retreat straight up this wall without an AoO, and while I'm running up there, I'm going to shoot you."
My opinion of the zen archer is poor! There was this One zen archer that pummeled my poor pet tarasque to death!
Where did he acquire the Wish and/or Miracle arrows?
"Make a wish!" would be a pretty awesome thing to say right before you shoot someone in the face.
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Should look into the Guided Weapon enchant, lets you use your wisdom to damage with a bow as well..
Should look into the Guided Weapon enchant, lets you use your wisdom to damage with a bow as well..
That is great! I'll definitely keep that in mind.
Guided looks super awesome! I think the next weapon upgrade for this guy will be that.
I'm looking at the d20pfsrd entry, and it doesn't say melee only. The text does strongly seem to imply it is intended for melee weapons. Tough call; I'll run that by the primary DM. It would be nice to swap Wisdom for the damage modifier (already used for attack rolls for being a level 3+ Zen Archer). If not, probably will just hold off until I can afford Holy.
Yea by RAW guided works with bows.. RAI who knows.. There was a debate about the description where it states you can use wisdom over str, which would lean towards melee only, but it never states melee weapons only.. To me "guided" sounds much more like a missile attack than a sword attack.. I personally wouldnt have an issue with it, but i could see some gms would.. Esp. since agile for dex users only work with melee..
I think my GM is on board, but I'll clarify. I think that they're just wanting to keep melee as the only combat style where the same attribute contributes to both attack rolls and damage rolls, at least without a feat or class feature. And I see the logic there.
More thoughts on Guided: since it didn't show up in Ultimate Equipment, I'm going to forego that one, probably. Bracer's of Falcon's Aim definitely on my list, though I discussed it with my DM. I told him I thought they were significantly undercosted. He thought increasing the price to 8,000gp was reasonable, and I agreed. A +1 to hit, plus Keen, plus a Perception bonus that works with any bow you use is definitely worth 8k.
More thoughts on the Bracers of Falcon's Aim: Yeah, I'm thinking that the fact that these are still a no-brainer to buy for me at twice the price tells me that they're significantly undercosted. A +2 Keen Holy Bow (a +5 weapon) would cost 50,000gp.
On the other hand, a +1 Holy Bow would cost 18,000, and the Bracers of Falcon's Aim 8,000gp (at the price we recosted them at in my campaign) totals 26,000gp. Yes, the +1 competence bonus to hit doesn't add to the damage (or get tripled on a crit), but I get a half-strength Eyes of the Eagle to compensate. Yes, that is a no-brainer buy for any archer as soon as they can afford it.
Okay, hit level 7 with this guy. He added Weapon Specialization (class feature granted this feat), Parting Show was his bonus feat and his 7th level feat was Monkey Style. I went with that over Spider Step, mainly because I hate being on the ground and had some issue with that in past adventures. That, and adding my Wisdom bonus to Acrobatics checks is amazing. This puts my Acrobatics check at +18, or +32 (boostable to +52 with a ki point!)when jumping. Finally tumbling through threatened squares is viable. Still haven't made progress on getting my bow upgraded or the Bracers of Falcon's Aim, but I'm already dishing out the most damage in the party anyway. I'm also considering retraining the Healing domain to the Spellkiller Inquisition.
If you continue with Inquisitor levels, you might want to consider picking up Snap Shot and Imp. Snap Shot at higher levels, plus combat reflexes. This would synergize greatly with solo tactics and some of the teamwork feats that the Inquisitor gets. You should be able to get Imp. Snap Shot a 13th level.
Thanks for the advice! The issue with those is that they require Rapid Shot as a prereq, which is a total dead feat. I can't use it with Flurry, and Flurry is just better. I would have taken the elf racial feat Stabbing Shot, as well, if it did not require that. I just decided to change course and go for more Inquisitor levels, though; but I'm thinking that I'll do the Preacher archetype and forego Solo Tactics altogether. Determination is neat. Rerolls for me are middle of the road, but the ability to force an opponent to reroll a successful attack against a party member seems top notch.
2 levels inquisitor is enough in my mind. More zen archer sooner is always better, unless going for teamwork feat.
Zen archer is all amazing stuff, but I'm already the MVP at dishing out damage. I want to focus less on that and do some more support stuff. More Inquisitor means better judgments, more spellcasting, and, eventually, Bane. The Teamwork feats are far less useful for the ranged types, so I'm going to do the Preacher archetype. The action economy for both Monks and Inquisitors is tight in regards to Swift and Immediate actions (which the Defense option for Determination requires), but the Warning option seems good for supporting party members.
I've been following this and I just played my first session with my Dwarven Zen Archer last night. I agonized for far too long over whether to go with Dwarf or Human. I chose Dwarf and 10 minutes later convinced myself that Human would be better...
I'm very intersted in taking Inquisitor levels as well. Originally I was only interested in two levels to get the Init. boost. In fact, I did not take the Reactionary feat in anticipation of this (and regretted it a bit during a couple fights). However, looking over the inquisitor a little more I'm thinking that if this character hangs around I might eventually like to get to level 5 with Inq to get Bane. I've read a little bit that you don't have to go with Zen Archer much beyond either 8 or 11 depending on what you want.
What domain/inquisition did you choose? I'm thinking about the Conversion inquisision. This is mostly for the party too because we really don't have a leader right now or any PC the didn't dump their CHA. If there is a better domain I'm missing out on, the Infiltrator archtype does this nearly as well, plus switches out some of the less useful Inquisitor stuff for better, but I'm not sure I can justify it with my LG Monk.
This is my DM's first experience with Pathfinder, but he has a lot of experience with 3.5 and 4.0. He asked us to do Society builds for the first run just to let him get used to it. Once that restriction drops, I fully intend on taking a level of Serene Barb (3rd party archtype). While it delays yet another level, it's particularly awesome in combination with this build. Changes rage to 'serenity' and buffs DEX and WIS in leiu of STR and CON along with the other good Barb stuff. It would require the DM to waive the class's chaotic requirement, but I have a strong feeling this archetype intended to do that anyway, even though it doesn't say so (in the SRD).
Empyeral Sorcerer has also been tempting, but I don't want to water down the soup too much or soup is what I'll have.
@ckorfmann I think just 2 levels of inquisitor is enough. Get the item, bane baldric, and count as a 7th level inquisitor for bane. More zen archer is always better then the extra few levels of inquisitor.
If you have 3 levels of inquisitor, get the team work feat lookout. Use your extremely high initiative to act in the surprise round, or get a full attack.
@ckorfmann I think just 2 levels of inquisitor is enough. Get the item, bane baldric, and count as a 7th level inquisitor for bane. More zen archer is always better then the extra few levels of inquisitor.
I see where you're coming from. That looks like a great artifact, but the wording confuses me a bit. It says that you use your Bane ability 5 levels higher (though the INQ doesn't get it until lvl 5) or gives you the Bane ability if you don't have it. It could be argued either way, if one were a rules lawyer, that a INQ lower than 5 couldn't use it. Does that hold water?
Possibly but even so, you'd still have a level 5 bane at worst.
@ckorfmann: The wording on that seems pretty solid in that if you are an Inquisitor, you are treated as 5 levels higher. I read that as lvl 2 Inquisitor with the baldric uses Bane as a lvl 7 Inquisitor.
BTW, the domain I chose was Healing. I can tell you it's a sub-par choice, but fits with my character storywise. Conversion is good, as is Spellkiller. I would have taken the Spellkiller Inquisition if it were a choice at the time.
@Grizzly the Archer: The bad part about the non-inquisitor use is that it attunes to a light or one-handed melee weapon; your bow will not count.
@james maissen: It worked in 3.5 and it does in PFRPG. It only specifies slashing or piercing, and does not differentiate melee vs. ranged vs. ranged projectile. The spell that it is based on, Keen Edge, also specifically works on projectiles:
http://paizo.com/prd/spells/keenEdge.html
Also, see this Paizo-published stat block for an Animal Lord with a Keen Bow:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/animalLord.html
Interesting. It does say "melee" on the weapon property. I'm at work, so I currently don't have Ultimate Equipment in front of me. I'm figuring that would be the latest official wording. But as written, yeah... melee only.
I have read somewhere that it was clearified by Paizo to be melee only. However, it is certainly unclear even in their own minds. I'm sure there is a legal work around. It could be argued that it would be legal on a single arrow(s).
Anyway, the keen property for archers is trumped by the Bracers of Falcon's Aim. It doubles the threat of bows. It's WAY undercosted. I plan on picking up a pair for my character when I can at the cost of 8,000gp (double). That's still a bargain, BTW. It's adding a +1 property (Keen), as well as a +1 competence bonus to hit and a slight bonus to Perception.
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I've played a ZA before and had a blast. I did a level or two dip into Empyreal Sorcerer (Yay for WIS based sorcerer) to get Gravity Bow and Mage Armor. The trait that boosts your CL by 2 (for multiclass) is a must. That gave me enough AC for the day with a couple of 1st level spells (4 hours a pop), and a couple of Gravity Bows per day.
For AC, the following suggestions :
+WIS and +DEX items
Ring of Deflection
Amulet of Natural Armor
Monk Robes
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier (+1 LUCK AC!!!!)
Gunman's Duster (+4 AC, Body slot, not armor, so no flurry issues by RAW, GM may go RAI and disallow though)
Cape of Bravado (+1 Insight Bonus when worn over arm, so slotless)
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 Insight Bonus)
@Grizzly the Archer, so if I were to only take 2 levels of Inq, what domain (and maybe archtype) would you suggest? I have heard a lot of people take Feather domain for Archer Inquisitors, but with only two levels, it seems the only constant benefit would be +1 to perception. A popular archtype is Preacher, but it's effect doesn't kick in until Inq. lvl 3. I like Infiltrator because I'm interested in being the party face since we don't really have one, but it adds WIS to bluff and Diplomacy while my CHA is a -2. Will help later, but not much now. The Conversion Inquisition might help me with that goal, but not sure it's my best choice.
@Randall Newnham, what domain and/or archtype did you select?
@mdt, thanks for that info. It will be very useful. I'd love to take a level of Emp. Sorcerer. I've been looking at it as a dip for a long time. I like the Inq. too though. Not sure how I feel about 3 lvl dips. I gotta believe that the mage armor and gravity bow spells might be worth it though.
@mdt, thanks for that info. It will be very useful. I'd love to take a level of Emp. Sorcerer. I've been looking at it as a dip for a long time. I like the Inq. too though. Not sure how I feel about 3 lvl dips. I gotta believe that the mage armor and gravity bow spells might be worth it though.
Sorry, didn't mean do a 3 level dip into Empyreal sorcerer. Take the trait that raises your caster level by 2. So if you go Sorcerer 1/Monk 2, you have a caster level of 3 for your first level spells (like mage armor and gravity bow).
Sorry, didn't mean do a 3 level dip into Empyreal sorcerer. Take the trait that raises your caster level by 2. So if you go Sorcerer 1/Monk 2, you have a caster level of 3 for your first level spells (like mage armor and gravity bow).
I meant along with two levels of Inquisitor.
Sorry, didn't mean do a 3 level dip into Empyreal sorcerer. Take the trait that raises your caster level by 2. So if you go Sorcerer 1/Monk 2, you have a caster level of 3 for your first level spells (like mage armor and gravity bow).I meant along with two levels of Inquisitor.
Ah, ok. :) Remember, you can get most of what you want from each of those two classes with a one level dip at low levels.
1 Zen Archer 1
2 Empyreal Sorcerer I
3 Zen Archer 2
4 Zen Archer 3
5 Inquisitor 1
6 Zen Archer 4
7 Inquisitor 2
8+ Zen Archer 5+
That get's you your gravity bow and mage armor, 3 minutes & 3 hours each, at level 4. Plus your non-provoking attack at level 4. Then your inquisitor dip for judgement and spells, then ki pool, then inquisitor 2 for cunning initiative. Honestly not a bad build. The biggest hit is the BAB (-2), but considering how much bonus you get out of Wisdom, you can afford to pump wisdom up (including just a headband of wisdom at higher levels without any other mental stats).
Ckorfmann: feather domain is good even for just the initiative bonus and conversion is good if you need to be a party face. Still, for more use and better overall ability, the tactics inquisition is really neat. Since your initiative is going to be pretty high, giving your party member, like the barbarian, haste is pretty nice. If not that, another 10' of movement for anyone, especially a monk is never. A bad thing. Take the travel domain and get 10' more to use around the battlefield and on the road.
Is the feather domain saying that the +2 initiative is just for the surprise round, or if I get an action in a surprise round, the +2 persists for the duration of the fight?
I have no idea what I'd do with an animal companion. Perhaps that's short-sighted, but I don't see one being very helpful to a monk.
Here's a random question. What would happen if you took the Infiltrator archtype which adds WIS to Bluff and Diplomacy and the Conversion inquisition which lets you sub WIS for Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate? Would it stack?
I like that build @mtd. I think I'll give it a shot. I like the idea of having eight 0-level spells to play with and get creative with. :-] I'm also interested in the 1st level (Celestial) Empyreal power which looks to be just a low level channel positive energy. Could come in handy.
@james maissen: It worked in 3.5 and it does in PFRPG. It only specifies slashing or piercing, and does not differentiate melee vs. ranged vs. ranged projectile. The spell that it is based on, Keen Edge, also specifically works on projectiles:
The spell(s) used in creation do not dictate the item.
And in 3rd edition, you will note that keen is only on the melee table and not the ranged one.
Many make this error and thus it propagates. Paizo spelled it out it seems in their core rules, but even some of their writers can get it wrong.
-James
@james maissen
Indeed. I checked on that after your last post and it's only ever been melee. It's amazing how prolific the misuse of that has been, myself included. Like a mentioned above, the archer's answer to that is definitely the Bracers of Falcon's Aim.@CKorfmann
My domain was Healing. It's definitely not a very good one, but the flavor fit for my character. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd do the Spellkiller Inquisition. My archetype is Preacher, but that isn't quite relevant yet (until 3rd level)
I'm curious what your collective opinions would be on this idea. I am a little afraid it is further watering down the character as it would make him character level 10 with still few of the abilities that come from the advanced levels, but I think it adds something significant and certainly adds to the flavor of this character. Using mdt's build,
1 Zen Archer 1
2 Empyreal Sorcerer I
3 Zen Archer 2
4 Zen Archer 3
5 Inquisitor 1
6 Zen Archer 4
7 Inquisitor 2
8+ Zen Archer 5+
what if I added two levels of Serene Barbarian? Now I've advocated for one level of it previously in this thread and others, but I know it comes with some issues (like the removal of the non-lawful requirement). It is 3rd party and perhaps not fully fleshed out, especially in terms of rage powers, but I haven't seen the actual publication, so I'm not sure if they address that or not. At any rate, one level seems like it would certainly be a good thing. The meat of this class is the +4 boost to DEX and WIS during serenity (rage). Additionally, he would get the advanced BAB and Fort save to make up for losing it with the other classes, the great d12 HD, and the fast movement to make up for postponing it with Monk levels, especially for a dwarf.
There are some interesting things to note about the 2nd level too. Again, improved BAB, fort and HD, but you gain uncanny dodge, two more rounds of serenity (rage), and a rage power. One of the rage powers that doesn't really go against the flavor of serenity would be Scent. Now the scent ability wouldn't do much for the character outside of combat since you'll probably want to save all your rounds of serenity for firing on enemies. In combat however, you can use Pheromone arrows. These grant a creature with the Scent ability +2 on attack and damage on a target marked with a Pheromone arrow. That's twice the benefit of Point Blank Shot.
I'd probably take the first level at character level 1 for the early HD boost. I'm not sold on where I would take the second level, but it could possibly make it more palatable to hold off on the Zen Archery ability. Here is what I'm thinking.
1 Serene Barbarian
2 Zen Archer 1
3 Empyreal Sorcerer 1
4 Zen Archer 2
5 Zen Archer 3
6 Serene Barbarian 2
7 Inquisitor 1
8 Zen Archer 4
9 Inquisitor 2
10+ Zen Archer 5+
Something else occured to me while I was looking over the character. I don't know why I gravitate so much toward utility roles in a party, but I think it's the concept of the complete adventurer that appeals to me. I took the trait Wisdom in the Flesh which lets you sub your WIS score for a physical score in any one skill which then becomes a class skill for you. I was trying to decide between Acrobatics and Stealth when I noticed Disable Device. None of the classes in my build concept give it to me and using my WIS score, it could make me better at it than the party rogue. I can eventually take the Monkey Style feat to add Wisdom to my Acrobatics skill and suffer no penalty to attack or AC when prone.
I don't know about the barbarian, so I can't answer that.
This build would appear to only work if you go Aasimar, and use the aasimar racial trait (not race trait) that lets you be a NG monk.
Having never really looked at one before, I think you just sold me on the Aasimar for everything else they can do.
I did go Aasimar with the Archon variant. I gave up the spell-like ability and rolled +2 initiative on the chart. Got lucky!
I'm really looking hard at the Inquisitor 3 now. I was looking at teamwork feats and saw Target of Opportunity which allows you to make an immediate ranged attack against someone after they have been hit by a ranged attack from another party member. If I could talk our party ninja back into going ranged (after I talked him into going stabby), that could be extremely useful. Plus, without advancing to Inquisitor 6, I'll be able to switch the teamwork feat to whatever I want for the situation.
I could use some help with my Inquisitor spells. I was planning on using the Magical Knack trait for my Sorcerer class to get extended Gravity Bow and Mage Armor, but IF I do take the 3rd level of Inquisitor, it might be better to devote Magical Knack to it depending on what spells I get since I'll know four level 1 divine spells as opposed to only two arcane.
One important thing about the Target of Opportunity: it takes an Immediate Action, and that will prevent you from using a Swift Action until after your next turn. A Zen Archer/Inquisitor has a lot of things that cost swift actions (pretty much all Ki abilities, Judgments, Bane). That doesn't make it a bad choice, but it's important to look at whatever else you'll be wanting to do.
I'd prefer the Lookout teamwork feat, over target of opportunity. Getting a full attack in a surprise round is amazing.
Well, the nice thing about this ability with the Inquisitor is that you can change the feat learned as a standard action (up to your WIS mod. x's per day), so you don't need to just learn one.