| 3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Ability damage in Pathfinder doesn't actually reduce an ability score, but counts upwards, very much like temporary hit points, correct? And for every two points of ability damage accumulated, the victim suffers a cumulative -1 penalty to several various stats. Am I still doing okay?
So how does that interact with other aspects? Such as prerequisites?
For example, say I have Power Attack and 13 Strength. I take one point of Strength damage. I can still use Power Attack because my Strength is still, technically, 13. Correct? Would it make any difference if I accumulated two points of Strength damage?
What about carrying capacity? That doesn't change due to Strength damage, right?
How about a composite bow that needs +4 to strength? If I have 18 Strength, and 4 points of Strength damage, I take a -2 to damage rolls because that's what the ability damage section for strength penalties says, but I wouldn't take a -2 penalty on my ATTACK rolls, because my strength is still technically 18.
See where I'm going?
I was hoping we could get some of these corner cases cleared up.
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I agree with all of the examples you've given.
Since ability damage doesn't actually reduce an ability score, you don't need to worry about suddenly losing the capability of using a feat like Dodge or Power Attack or Combat Expertise, or a mighty strength weapon.
Actually, I think that this is an elegant solution. Without it, someone taking a few points of Dexterity damage might lose the ability to make use of Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Wind Stance, Lightning Stance, Following Step, Step Up and Strike, Rapid Shot, Shot On the Run, and Disrupting Shot. Okay, the guy didn't have all of those feats, but telling someone that they've been struck for ability damage, and now they can't use a goodly portion of their feats...that wouldn't make the game more fun.
So, you can still use all of your feats and abilities, you're just taking some penalties. I don't see the problem, and I think that the rules for ability damage work very well.
All your examples are correct. You take the listed penalties under ability score damage and nothing further. No lost spells, no lost feats, you don't even become too weak to hold your gear.
Ability drain on the other hand does actually lower the scores. That could disable your feats, or make your bow too hard for you to pull, or otherwise hurt you.
Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain
Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score. The only exception to this is your Constitution score. If the damage to your Constitution is equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you die. Unless otherwise noted, damage to your ability scores is healed at the rate of 1 per day to each ability score that has been damaged. Ability damage can be healed through the use of spells, such as lesser restoration.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Strength: Damage to your Strength score causes you to take penalties on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The penalty also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Dexterity: Damage to your Dexterity score causes you to take penalties on Dexterity-based skill checks, ranged attack rolls, initiative checks, and Reflex saving throws. The penalty also applies to your Armor Class, your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Tiny or smaller), and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.
Constitution: Damage to your Constitution score causes you to take penalties on your Fortitude saving throws. In addition, multiply your total Hit Dice by this penalty and subtract that amount from your current and total hit points. Lost hit points are restored when the damage to your Constitution is healed.
Intelligence: Damage to your Intelligence score causes you to take penalties on Intelligence-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Intelligence.
Wisdom: Damage to your Wisdom score causes you to take penalties on Wisdom-based skill checks and Will saving throws. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based on Wisdom.
Charisma: Damage to your Charisma score causes you to take penalties on Charisma-based skill checks. This penalty also applies to any spell DCs based off Charisma and the DC to resist your channeled energy.
Ability Drain: Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.
I just quoted the relevant section for those that wanted to read it without looking it up.
Penalty and Damage don't lower the score, only Drain. Because of that, your score stays the same for the purpose of required stats.
The reference to lowering ability scores below 1 only applies to temporary effects, such as those from Ray of Enfeeblement, but not from diseases (which last permanently or until removed). You can't be rendered unconscious or dead by a temporary penalty from a spell, but you can by a permanent penalty from a disease or curse.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.
This implies that ability damage can be greater than ability score.
And with the ability penalty I think that it is matter of bad choice of wording.
For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.This implies that ability damage can be greater than ability score.
And with the ability penalty I think that it is matter of bad choice of wording.
Exceeding a score only matters when determining how much has to be healed to function again. Aka , 10 STR with 18 STR damage will take more castings of lesser restoration then someone who only had 10 STR damage even though both are unconcious.
I'm not sure why you would let someone with ability damage keep using their feats. What is the point of ability damage if it doesn't do anything but cause a negative modifier? You could have just started with giving the penalty.
Personally, I love the idea of denying a wizard the ability to cast spells because he took intelligence damage, or keeping a fighting from being able to power attack while damaged (unless you changed the name of power attack to feeble attack).
That's what 3.5 had, and it got horribly confusing for players and DMs. If your fighter got severely strength-damaged in combat, you'd have to stop everything and say "Ok, do you lose power attack at 15 str or 13 str? 13. Which feats do you have that depend on power attack? You lose those. Do you have anything that depends on those? Recalculate all your numbers now that your strength is lower and you don't have those feats. Oh, you just got a restoration - you can erase all that."
Or the wizard going "Shoot. I just lost a bonus spell slot. Which of these three spells do you all think I can get rid of?" and then taking two minutes to discuss.
Basically, it's a "do less calculation mid-combat" rule.
I'm not sure why you would let someone with ability damage keep using their feats. What is the point of ability damage if it doesn't do anything but cause a negative modifier? You could have just started with giving the penalty.
Personally, I love the idea of denying a wizard the ability to cast spells because he took intelligence damage, or keeping a fighting from being able to power attack while damaged (unless you changed the name of power attack to feeble attack).
That's what 3.5 had, and it got horribly confusing for players and DMs. If your fighter got severely strength-damaged in combat, you'd have to stop everything and say "Ok, do you lose power attack at 15 str or 13 str? 13. Which feats do you have that depend on power attack? You lose those. Do you have anything that depends on those? Recalculate all your numbers now that your strength is lower and you don't have those feats. Oh, you just got a restoration - you can erase all that."
Or the wizard going "Shoot. I just lost a bonus spell slot. Which of these three spells do you all think I can get rid of?" and then taking two minutes to discuss.
Basically, it's a "do less calculation mid-combat" rule.
I'm not sure the current system is any less confusing.
It's pretty easy to remember "anything effected by X ability score is affected by penalties to said score."
Remembering that Strength damage/penalties causes you to take penalties only on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength), to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense; but NOT to your carrying capacity, your feats, your ability to use a bow, etc. is far more difficult to remember.
Sadly, it's these kinds of complexities that we get in exchange for having such a wonderfully detailed system.
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It's pretty easy to remember "anything effected by X ability score is affected by penalties to said score."
Remembering that Strength damage/penalties causes you to take penalties only on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength), to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense; but NOT to your carrying capacity, your feats, your ability to use a bow, etc. is far more difficult to remember.
I have to say that I disagree with this. I find it much easier to apply a penalty to Str-based rolls, than it would be to modify the Str score mid-game and figure out which of your feats and weapons you can no longer use, and which feats have those other feats as prerequisites. Then, of course, recalculating your attack and damage mods, grapple check, and encumbrance with the lower score and absence of feats.
In comparison, being told, "Okay, you've taken 5 points of Strength damage. Until that's healed, you take a -2 on melee attack rolls, weapon damage rolls (that rely on Strength), CMB, CMD, and Strength-based skills", doesn't seem that difficult to implement. No need to re-figure your whole character, just apply the penalty to the character you've got.
I think it takes a little getting used to, but basically it affects everything that is calculated using your ability modifier.
So the target might not drop that heavy weapon but he sure shakes alot and moves a bit sluggish, it works fine with me.
What I find a bit confusing is how ability damage, drain and penalty interact. I am guessing a creature with str 20 and 10 points ability penalty will add ability damage to the penalty, but to make it drop unconscious you will likely have to deal the whole 20 str in ability damage.
If so, does a creature with penalty 10 and damage 16 get -13 on all checks involving strength, even if it only has 20 str ?
It seems the most sensible thing to do.
Ability drain on the other hand I'd be inclined to stack with ability damage to decide when a creature will drop unconcious, since drain is actually a worse case of ability damage. So it would drop unconcious when damage and drain added up to 20 or more.
It's pretty easy to remember "anything effected by X ability score is affected by penalties to said score."
Remembering that Strength damage/penalties causes you to take penalties only on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength), to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and your Combat Maneuver Defense; but NOT to your carrying capacity, your feats, your ability to use a bow, etc. is far more difficult to remember.
I have to say that I disagree with this. I find it much easier to apply a penalty to Str-based rolls, than it would be to modify the Str score mid-game and figure out which of your feats and weapons you can no longer use, and which feats have those other feats as prerequisites. Then, of course, recalculating your attack and damage mods, grapple check, and encumbrance with the lower score and absence of feats.
In comparison, being told, "Okay, you've taken 5 points of Strength damage. Until that's healed, you take a -2 on melee attack rolls, weapon damage rolls (that rely on Strength), CMB, CMD, and Strength-based skills", doesn't seem that difficult to implement. No need to re-figure your whole character, just apply the penalty to the character you've got.
Apples and oranges. I'm talking about remembering the rule. You are talking about implementing the changes.
What I find a bit confusing is how ability damage, drain and penalty interact
Though they are all very similar (and nearly identical in the case of penalties/ability damage) I believe they all act independently of one another.
A person with 10 Strength who was hit by a ray of enfeeblement (-4 penalty to strength), a poison dart (4 ability damage), and smacked around by a rod of withering (4 Strength drain), would be left with 6 Strength with a -4 penalty and 4 ability damage.
All in all the character would be suffering a -6 penalty to Strength related abilities (-2 for each effect).
As far as further penalties are concerned, the poor bastard could only take 1 more point of penalty (since penalties cannot reduce you to less than one).
What I find a bit confusing is how ability damage, drain and penalty interactThough they are all very similar (and nearly identical in the case of penalties/ability damage) I believe they all act independently of one another.
A person with 10 Strength who was hit by a ray of enfeeblement (-4 penalty to strength), a poison dart (4 ability damage), and smacked around by a rod of withering (4 Strength drain), would be left with 6 Strength with a -4 penalty and 4 ability damage.
All in all the character would be suffering a -6 penalty to Strength related abilities (-2...
yea, practically the same, but a better way of putting it. Think I can play with those rules.
Though if the str 10 guy got an 8 point penalty on str from enfeeblement, he would have a -4 penalty, if he then got drained it wouldnt do anything to increase the penalty, while if he got afected by ability damage it would affect him.. that doesnt seem right.
Though if the str 10 guy got an 8 point penalty on str from enfeeblement, he would have a -4 penalty, if he then got drained it wouldnt do anything to increase the penalty, while if he got afected by ability damage it would affect him.. that doesnt seem right.
Hm... *rubs chin in thought*
The only people that enjoy high level Pathfinder are people that enjoy crunching numbers and remembering rules. Everyone else plays it to lower levels, decides they don't like it because they can't fathom the idea that they can JUST play it at low levels, or play something else.
Changing a rule in Pathfinder to facilitate faster high level game play is like trying to push a greased pig up an oily hill. It is stupid.
Pathfinder is the BEST GAME I have ever seen when you play it at low and mid level. The fascination with the drag of high level for any reason other than the joy of collecting the numbers really eludes me.
And those who like to feel powerful, and do huge amounts of damage. And those who like the combinations of abilities which take too long to develop to get them at low levels (any PrC where you need to take 3 levels of two different classes, for one). And, yes, those who like number crunching and theorycrafting. Just because you don't like high level play doesn't mean that there aren't people who do.
As an example: I'm the only one in my group who really gets into number crunching and concept building. The rest play for some of those other reasons I mentioned. I just gave all my players the choice of staying at level 8, jumping up to 11 to do a different adventure (which will end at 16 or so), or going back to 1 to start a totally new campaign. They unanimously picked 11.
A person with 10 Strength who was hit by a ray of enfeeblement (-4 penalty to strength), a poison dart (4 ability damage), and smacked around by a rod of withering (4 Strength drain), would be left with 6 Strength with a -4 penalty and 4 ability damage.
Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
This character would have a 6 strength after the drain, which would then be reduced by 4 points that can lower it to 0, and 4 points that can only lower it to 1. So he would be at 6 strength with an effective strength of 1. If he took any more penalty, it would be ignored. If he took more damage, it would push the penalty away, but wouldn't actually change his strength to 0 until he had enough damage to reach it.
Effectively, drain is applied first, because it lowers the base value. Then damage and penalty are applied as if they were the same thing, with the one caveat that as long as there isn't enough damage to reduce him to 0 on its own then his strength bottoms out at 1.