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The blink dog entry in the Bestiary II says blink dog sages often have sorcerer levels. How can blink dogs possibly be effective sorcerers without hands? Do they always take the Still Spell metamagic feat, and end up casting most spells 1 level behind?
There are precious few spells without somatic components. What's more, their constant blink ability would keep them from using things like foci or expensive material components (hard to carry something when you aren't physically present half the time).
Or is there something else that I'm missing?
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Dragons and some other creatures can also cast spells with somatic components. Any creature that is listed as being able to use sorcerery (or any casting for that matter) is able to do in their normal shape without using still spell.
Likely creatures learn to use the limbs they have when they learn sorcerery. If a human is polymorphed into a dogs shape he is unfamiliar with the body and cannot use traditional gestures to cast.
There's no indication that blink dog sages are natural sorcerers like dragons are though. If they had a stat block of a blink dog sage with sorcerer levels and without Still Spell, I would just assume that you were right and move on, but sadly, that isn't the case. :(
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There's no indication that blink dog sages are natural sorcerers like dragons are though. If they had a stat block of a blink dog sage with sorcerer levels and without Still Spell, I would just assume that you were right and move on, but sadly, that isn't the case. :(
Except for the fact that their entry mentions that the sages tend to be sorcerers. That would be the best indication if anything that blink dog's have a "natural" ability to use their paws for somatic components.
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Sometimes I see a question and think.
"Nope it's too silly."
Can't you just hand wave it and be done with it? Must everything be absolutely defined by the rules as written? Isn't it enough to see in a book: "Blink Dog sages are often sorcerers", and think "Cool", instead of "How can they cast without hands? I'm FLABBERGASTED!"
Just run with it, sometimes you gotta stop sweating the rules and start embracing the imaginative.
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Sometimes I see a question and think.
"Nope it's too silly."
Can't you just hand wave it and be done with it? Must everything be absolutely defined by the rules as written? Isn't it enough to see in a book: "Blink Dog sages are often sorcerers", and think "Cool", instead of "How can they cast without hands? I'm FLABBERGASTED!"
Just run with it, sometimes you gotta stop sweating the rules and start embracing the imaginative.
+ infinity
Posts like this make me really miss the days when monsters didn't even remotely follow the same rules as characters; hell, they didn't follow rules at all. If something was in a stat block it was because it was cool, not because you could calculate it up from their other statistics.
Isn't it enough to see in a book: "Blink Dog sages are often sorcerers", and think "Cool"
No.
If you crack open a book to yank a monster out so you can throw it at your players just because it's "cool", it kinda ruins the mood.I, for one, rather enjoy immersion. I'm afraid I don't quite get the thrill of rolling dice across a table for the mere amusement of watching them tumble.
Questions are the hallmark of the creative mind, and the curious cat finds the cream. "What if" and "Why not" are great questions.
I more or less agree with Gruuuu. However, this particular thread-starting question is a bit inane.
There's no indication that blink dog sages are natural sorcerers like dragons are though.Yes, there is:
The blink dog entry in the Bestiary II says blink dog sages often have sorcerer levels.Problem solved.
That's not the same. Just because you can take sorcerer levels doesn't mean you can do it innately like dragons or various outsiders. If that were the case, than it could be said of anyone and nobody would ever need hands to cast spells as they would just use whatever was at hand (pun intended).
EDIT: Or at least that's the way it was in v3.5. In the Paizo developers changed the way it works, I would be most pleased.
The blink dog entry in the Bestiary II says blink dog sages often have sorcerer levels. How can blink dogs possibly be effective sorcerers without hands? Do they always take the Still Spell metamagic feat, and end up casting most spells 1 level behind?
Well, I think you're getting hung up on the word 'hand'. Somatic components require "precise movement of the hand", it's true, but there are creatures that cast spells without proper hands - couatl and nagas (and I'd argue dragons, though their forepaws are closer to hands than most creatures).
Blink Dogs are smart and presumably can precisely move their forepaws with great precision. The fact that they're not suited to grasping objects shouldn't preclude them from casting spells. The Natural Spell feat shows it's possible to substitute animal noises/gestures for V/S components; Blink Dogs don't need the feat because they're not polymorphed into animal forms.
That's not the same. Just because you can take sorcerer levels doesn't mean you can do it innately like dragons or various outsiders.
There's nothing in the rules that gives Dragons or outsiders a free pass either, you know. Speciesist thinking!!! ;-)
There's no indication that blink dog sages are natural sorcerers like dragons are though.Yes, there is:
The blink dog entry in the Bestiary II says blink dog sages often have sorcerer levels.Problem solved.That's not the same. Just because you can take sorcerer levels doesn't mean you can do it innately like dragons or various outsiders. If that were the case, than it could be said of anyone and nobody would ever need hands to cast spells as they would just use whatever was at hand (pun intended).
EDIT: Or at least that's the way it was in v3.5. In the Paizo developers changed the way it works, I would be most pleased.
Nagas have sorcerer levels, and they don't have any arms/claws/paws/etc. At least blink dogs have paws. :)
edit:ninja'd by Helic.
edit 2: ninja'd again by the argument of nothing giving dragons a free pass. Darn you ninjas.
Darn you ninjas.
Wait, blink dogs can be ninjas? ;)
Dragons don't get a free pass? How about...
Polymorph Excerpt: While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
The rules specifically say dragons can can make the appropriate movements. This seems to also apply to any creature that has racial spellcasting (such as nagas, rakshasa, et al.).
No such stipulation is made for the blink dog, which has to take sorcerer levels in order to cast at all.
Class-based casting =/= racial spellcasting.
Not everything is explicitly stated in the rules nor should it be as that would at least double the size of the rulebook and overcomplicate the game. While I do like to have things explained so they make sense, I find that in most cases you can think it through and come up with a logical reason why things could be as they have been stated.
In this case consider the following, natural spell allows you to substitute both verbal and somatic components for various noises and gestures. This implies that it is possible to cast spells using verbal and somatic components in any form but you must understand the form and be able to adapt your spell casting appropriately. The fact that a single feat can do this for any conceivable form is remarkable.
That said if you were born a blink dog, isn’t it logical that you’d learn magic as a blink dog using your paws and perhaps even your snout for gestures? Thus you would know how to cast spells in your natural form using appropriate noises and gestures even if those noises and gestures weren’t typically used by spell casters of other races. And lets face it doesn’t that make sense? Why would a race of intelligent canines use magic the same way humanoids do?
In any case I think this is a perfectly reasonable explanation that falls within the rules and would be how I explained it to a player if asked. To me, this provides more immersion, makes sense, and follows the rules. Hopefully this answers your question.
Not everything is explicitly stated in the rules nor should it be as that would at least double the size of the rulebook and overcomplicate the game. While I do like to have things explained so they make sense, I find that in most cases you can think it through and come up with a logical reason why things could be as they have been stated.
In this case consider the following, natural spell allows you to substitute both verbal and somatic components for various noises and gestures. This implies that it is possible to cast spells using verbal and somatic components in any form but you must understand the form and be able to adapt your spell casting appropriately. The fact that a single feat can do this for any conceivable form is remarkable.
That said if you were born a blink dog, isn’t it logical that you’d learn magic as a blink dog using your paws and perhaps even your snout for gestures? Thus you would know how to cast spells in your natural form using appropriate noises and gestures even if those noises and gestures weren’t typically used by spell casters of other races. And lets face it doesn’t that make sense? Why would a race of intelligent canines use magic the same way humanoids do?
In any case I think this is a perfectly reasonable explanation that falls within the rules and would be how I explained it to a player if asked. To me, this provides more immersion, makes sense, and follows the rules. Hopefully this answers your question.
Yes, but if the blink dog (somehow) polymorphed into a human, the rules are clear in that he'd still be able to cast his spells.
Sadly, your logic comes with a double standard.
I don't have the Bestiary II yet but I know that blink dogs used to have "hands" for their forepaws. Is that no longer the case?
Also, from what you are saying it doesn't say that blink dogs are inherently sorcerers. That would be dragons who actually have inherent magic. The blink dogs are inclined to be sorcerers. They don't have to be. What spells would they cast? Would they take still spell like you suggested? They can't wild shape, but maybe they could still use the feat Natural Spell (or have a natural way to mimic it), which does allow a caster to use various noises and gestures in place of verbal and somatic components. Maybe they focus more on spells that don't require somatic components.
As for the constant blink effect, why wouldn't they be able to keep their components with them? If someone who casts blink can keep their stuff, I don't see why the blink dog can't.
I don't have the Bestiary II yet but I know that blink dogs used to have "hands" for their forepaws. Is that no longer the case?
I've never heard anything like that before. They clearly have paws in the picture.
Also, from what you are saying it doesn't say that blink dogs are inherently sorcerers. That would be dragons who actually have inherent magic. The blink dogs are inclined to be sorcerers. They don't have to be. What spells would they cast? Would they take still spell like you suggested? They can't wild shape, but maybe they could still use the feat Natural Spell (or have a natural way to mimic it), which does allow a caster to use various noises and gestures in place of verbal and somatic components. Maybe they focus more on spells that don't require somatic components.
That's right. If they want to cast sorcerer spells, then they have to take levels in sorcerer, unlike a dragon or similar creature.
As for the constant blink effect, why wouldn't they be able to keep their components with them? If someone who casts blink can keep their stuff, I don't see why the blink dog can't.
I didn't think of that. Perhaps you're right. It being a natural ability rather than a spell, I just assumed it wouldn't effect their gear (kind of like natural energy resistance protects a creature, but not their gear, whereas the spell resist energy and similar magics clearly protect the gear as well).
Not everything is explicitly stated in the rules nor should it be as that would at least double the size of the rulebook and overcomplicate the game. While I do like to have things explained so they make sense, I find that in most cases you can think it through and come up with a logical reason why things could be as they have been stated.
In this case consider the following, natural spell allows you to substitute both verbal and somatic components for various noises and gestures. This implies that it is possible to cast spells using verbal and somatic components in any form but you must understand the form and be able to adapt your spell casting appropriately. The fact that a single feat can do this for any conceivable form is remarkable.
That said if you were born a blink dog, isn’t it logical that you’d learn magic as a blink dog using your paws and perhaps even your snout for gestures? Thus you would know how to cast spells in your natural form using appropriate noises and gestures even if those noises and gestures weren’t typically used by spell casters of other races. And lets face it doesn’t that make sense? Why would a race of intelligent canines use magic the same way humanoids do?
In any case I think this is a perfectly reasonable explanation that falls within the rules and would be how I explained it to a player if asked. To me, this provides more immersion, makes sense, and follows the rules. Hopefully this answers your question.
Yes, but if the blink dog (somehow) polymorphed into a human, the rules are clear in that he'd still be able to cast his spells.
Sadly, your logic comes with a double standard.
Why? Can’t you still bark and gesture as well as you could with paws?
Actually, if a creature learned magic in a form that was not humanoid I could see needing natural spell to adapt to the other forms and would not be at all averse to having it stated in the rules. If fact I think I might prefer that interpretation.
Maybe not all sorceres make the same gesture when casting the same spell?
Dragons don't get a free pass? How about...
The rules specifically say dragons can can make the appropriate movements. This seems to also apply to any creature that has racial spellcasting (such as nagas, rakshasa, et al.).
Dragons have sort-of hands (though the art is terribly misleading, I mean, look at the Pathfinder cover). Nagas and couatl have...tails and/or wings. These are NOT capable of the precise movements of hands (different precise movements perhaps).
No such stipulation is made for the blink dog, which has to take sorcerer levels in order to cast at all.
Class-based casting =/= racial spellcasting.
But does the description of the Blink Dog preclude them from making precise gestures? They are not dogs, they only look a lot like dogs. They presumably have a language and can speak it (don't have Bestiary 2 yet) - dogs are not equipped for precise vocalization. They are specifically mentioned as taking Sorcerer levels, so they probably can make the gestures necessary for spellcasting.
Dragons don't get a free pass? How about...
Polymorph Excerpt: While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.The rules specifically say dragons can can make the appropriate movements. This seems to also apply to any creature that has racial spellcasting (such as nagas, rakshasa, et al.).
No such stipulation is made for the blink dog, which has to take sorcerer levels in order to cast at all.
Class-based casting =/= racial spellcasting.
The rule you quoted only references a dragon being able to cast because it can speak, and has claws that move as freely as hands. It has nothing to do with race. Dragons were a good example to use because they happen to fit the criteria*. The polymorph rules is a nod to determine what a creature has to be able to do to cast spells in a polymorphed form. It has nothing to do with racial exceptions to rules.
Can I cast spells while polymorphed into form X? See below
Criteria:
Can it manipulate material components-check
Can it speak-check
Can it move its hand/claw freely-check
Then if you polymorph into that form you can still cast spells.
Now I understand that it would be nice if every creature such as blink dogs and nagas follows this formula, but it seems to be an exception to the rule, and maybe they did not want to give the still casting feat because they don't want them to be able to cast in armor or some other reason.
Or, perhaps, you know, they only cast spells without a somatic component?
Or, perhaps, you know, they use their tail to make the gestures? It specifies Hand because the core rulebook is referencing PCs, who always have hands. Other creatures learn to use their own bodies. This is called evolution. You don't see an issue with a shark knowing how to use it's own magnetic senses. That's just how it works.
Well I gave it a bit more thought and I still agree with my original post. I will however add:
Polymorph Excerpt: While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.
What is really being stated in the rules is that as long as the form you polymorph into is capable of the gestures and verbal components you are accustomed to using while spell casting you can still cast spells normally, in other words without the need of a feat
Of course this is simply my interpretation of the rules, but I still think it’s reasonable.
Or, perhaps, you know, they only cast spells without a somatic component?
Or, perhaps, you know, they use their tail to make the gestures? It specifies Hand because the core rulebook is referencing PCs, who always have hands. Other creatures learn to use their own bodies. This is called evolution. You don't see an issue with a shark knowing how to use it's own magnetic senses. That's just how it works.
Nice imaginative, out-of-the-box thinking there, mdt! You got my support!
Well I gave it a bit more thought and I still agree with my original post. I will however add:
Polymorph Excerpt: While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon.What is really being stated in the rules is that as long as the form you polymorph into is capable of the gestures and verbal components you are accustomed to using while spell casting you can still cast spells normally, in other words without the need of a feat
Of course this is simply my interpretation of the rules, but I still think it’s reasonable.
You are right. The polymorph quote is only there to tell you when you can still cast spells. It is in no way a racial except because polymorph does not grant spellcasting abilities. Certain forms allows you to cast spells, and others don't if you are naturally a humanoid type creature.
Can I cast spells while polymorphed into form X? See below
Criteria:
Can it manipulate material components-check
Can it speak-check
Can it move its hand/claw freely-check
Then if you polymorph into that form you can still cast spells.
By that criteria, you could cast spells in nearly ANY form. That seems...wrong...to me.
By that criteria, you could cast spells in nearly ANY form. That seems...wrong...to me.
Actually I thought that that natural spell already established that you can cast spells in nearly any form.
Personally, I believe a creatures form isn't particularly relevant when spell casting, its more about understanding magic and being able to manipulate it in such a way as to get the desired effect. Thus the mind using magic is far more important then the body using it.
By that criteria, you could cast spells in nearly ANY form. That seems...wrong...to me.Actually I thought that that natural spell already established that you can cast spells in nearly any form.
Personally, I believe a creatures form isn't particularly relevant when spell casting, its more about understanding magic and being able to manipulate it in such a way as to get the desired effect. Thus the mind using magic is far more important then the body using it.
Yeah, I suppose you're right.
I still wish the designers could be more clear on the matter though.
I would be most grateful if you all would FAQ the OP so we could get some developer input.
Questions are the hallmark of the creative mind, and the curious cat finds the cream. "What if" and "Why not" are great questions.
Consistency is the hobgoblin of a hobbled mind.
And curiousity killed the cat -- trust me, I know.
I would be most grateful if you all would FAQ the OP so we could get some developer input.Under no circumstances; overuse of the FAQ system results in its failure.
Asking for clarification on a distinctly gray area of the rules does not constitute over use. As written, there is a disconnect between PC spellcasting and monster spellcasting. Monsters shouldn't be able to cast their spells, but it seems that the intent is that they do somehow. Clarification on how they accomplish that may dramatically effect other areas of the game (such as polymorphed PC sorcerers being able to cast in certain forms).
This is not a bad time to be using it.
FAQing everything in the Bestiary II errata threads would be a good example of overuse.
Monsters do lots of things PCs can't do. Each case isn't a need for an FAQ.
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Asking for clarification on a distinctly gray area of the rules does not constitute over use.I would be most grateful if you all would FAQ the OP so we could get some developer input.Under no circumstances; overuse of the FAQ system results in its failure.
The F is Frequently. FAQ isn't, "I woke up this morning and had a Funny thought." :)
I agree with Howie. This question hurts. I suppose none of these creatures can be druids, clerics or bards either? So the aboleth mages and celestial chargers are out of luck, huh?
The rules for spellcasting are not the same as the rules for polymorph.
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell."
That's it. If a blink dog can gesture, a blink dog can cast. Anything else is you adding a level of complexity to the game that doesn't exist.
Monsters do lots of things PCs can't do. Each case isn't a need for an FAQ.
I thought we were playing under an exception based game design.
Unless a specific exception is called out, it doesn't exist. There is nothing in the rules saying that monsters can cast spells without hands/somatic components.
That's a very real problem if it wasn't the intent of the game designers.
Monsters do lots of things PCs can't do. Each case isn't a need for an FAQ.I thought we were playing under an exception based game design.
Unless a specific exception is called out, it doesn't exist. There is nothing in the rules saying that monsters can cast spells without hands/somatic components.
That's a very real problem if it wasn't the intent of the game designers.
In general that is true -- but no where in the rules does it say, "unless a specific exception is called out it doesn't exist."
There are plenty of specific cases that aren't specifically called out that are still treated as exceptions.
Beyond that it says blink dogs take levels in sorcerer -- it is simple to infer from that line that blink dogs are capable of casting spells thus if you were to polymorph into the form of a blink dog you can cast spells.
Done and Done.
At the end of the day you are creating a problem that doesn't actually exist -- using polymorph isn't the same case as being something else and as such has specific rules that don't follow in "normal" circumstances (polymorph itself is a specific exception in this case). To cast spells one must be able to perform the components -- it doesn't say how one must perform it.
Unless a specific exception is called out, it doesn't exist. There is nothing in the rules saying that monsters can cast spells without hands/somatic components.
Except for the part where it says they can be sorcerers. You're right, it doesn't explicitly state that they can use their paws/tail/left eyelid to perform somatic components. Perhaps the game designers assumed that we'd be capable of figuring that out on our own. Personally, as much as I'm a rules kinda guy, I don't want the books to read like legalese. And I'd much rather the designers focus on actual errors and really foggy parts of the game instead of, well, nitpicks.
I agree with Howie. This question hurts. I suppose none of these creatures can be druids, clerics or bards either? So the aboleth mages and celestial chargers are out of luck, huh?
The rules for spellcasting are not the same as the rules for polymorph.
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell."
That's it. If a blink dog can gesture, a blink dog can cast. Anything else is you adding a level of complexity to the game that doesn't exist.
To add to this, we know that not every spell is cast the same way by every caster. If it was, then it a wizard wouldn't need to make a Spellcraft check to prepare a spell he knows from a borrowed spellbook.
Ravingdork, I think you are over thinking this. There are some things that can be hand waved away for ease and I think this is one of them. Blink dogs are not humanoids so they have learned to cast spells with somatic components differently than humanoids. That's really all that anyone needs to know. Maybe they wag their tails just right. I don't know and I don't think that it's going to affect the game to not worry about it.
Here is an idea:
The blinkdog bloodline. First ability would be to cast spells with somatic gestures with paws/tail/whiskers/etc. Basically Natural Spell when in blinkdog form.
Come to think of it, there should be lots of monstrous bloodlines... If only there was some kind of magic book that had the ultimate new magic stuff in it. Maybe Paizo should produce something like that...
By that criteria, you could cast spells in nearly ANY form. That seems...wrong...to me.Can I cast spells while polymorphed into form X? See below
Criteria:
Can it manipulate material components-check
Can it speak-check
Can it move its hand/claw freely-check
Then if you polymorph into that form you can still cast spells.
Them be the rules though, and not every form meets all of those criteria. If your PC shapechanged into a naga you could not cast spells even though the naga can because you would not meet the prereqs for the polymorph section you qouted. If you changed into a blink dog you could not cast. You must basically be able to speak, and be dexterous enough to cast spells with your hand.
How dexterous your hand/claw is may be up to your DM though.
By that criteria, you could cast spells in nearly ANY form. That seems...wrong...to me.Actually I thought that that natural spell already established that you can cast spells in nearly any form.
Personally, I believe a creatures form isn't particularly relevant when spell casting, its more about understanding magic and being able to manipulate it in such a way as to get the desired effect. Thus the mind using magic is far more important then the body using it.
The polymorph quote by RD says otherwise. Now if you were saying a creature in it's natural form can cast spells then I will agree.
I agree with Howie. This question hurts. I suppose none of these creatures can be druids, clerics or bards either? So the aboleth mages and celestial chargers are out of luck, huh?
The rules for spellcasting are not the same as the rules for polymorph.
"To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell."
That's it. If a blink dog can gesture, a blink dog can cast. Anything else is you adding a level of complexity to the game that doesn't exist.
To add to this, we know that not every spell is cast the same way by every caster. If it was, then it a wizard wouldn't need to make a Spellcraft check to prepare a spell he knows from a borrowed spellbook.
Ravingdork, I think you are over thinking this. There are some things that can be hand waved away for ease and I think this is one of them. Blink dogs are not humanoids so they have learned to cast spells with somatic components differently than humanoids. That's really all that anyone needs to know. Maybe they wag their tails just right. I don't know and I don't think that it's going to affect the game to not worry about it.
+1
Darn you ninjas.Wait, blink dogs can be ninjas? ;)
Hey, now that's an idea! *goes off to make up a blink dog ninja*