Animate Dead


Homebrew and House Rules


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There are various spells that can be used to control undead, but animate dead states that undead under the control of this spell can only do two things:

Quote:

This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.

The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.

1) Follow you - I take this to mean that the undead will move toward you, and if you move, it will follow you. But it can't scout ahead and won't move away from you (unless moving away to attack, as per the second command).

2) Attack any (or just a specific kind of) creature in an area - The attacking any creature part is pretty clear cut. You tell it to attack, it attacks the nearest creature. Although, I assume that the undead will not attack you. Also, if you tell the undead to attack, but it cannot sense the creature, the undead doesn't do anything...it just stands there. Now the part about attacking a specific kind of creature seems a bit contradictory for a mindless undead. How can it tell the difference between a human and a half-elf? How about a horse and a unicorn? Even the term "kind" doesn't seem to be a standard term from the book like "type" or "subtype," but I wouldn't imagine that a skeleton or zombie could automatically differentiate between an animal and a magical beast anyway. Therefore, I've just been handling the "specific kind" portion based on DM discretion.

Since the undead are created and controlled via magic, I have allowed the undead to automatically know which commands are meant for them. So, the necromancer can say "attack elves" once and have that command apply to as many or as few undead (under his control from animate dead) as he wants, and the rest of the undead will not attack elves. He could order the rest of the undead to "attack dwarves" or follow him.

However, as his undead army grows in size, I am thinking about limiting the amount of commands that can be given in a single round.

The command has to be spoken, and speaking is a free action, but there are limits to even free actions. Telling one undead to follow and another to attack seems easy enough, but telling ten different undead to attack ten different kinds of creatures seems like too much of a mouthful for one round.

Since the commands are simple and short, I was thinking of having each command require 1 second of time, so up to 6 commands can be given in a round. These commands can be given while doing anything else, except tasks that require speech. Along those lines, if the necromancer casts a spell with a verbal component, it requires a standard action - which is half his turn - and only leaves 3 seconds left for commands. A spell with a verbal component that requires a full-round action or 1 round to cast would leave no time for commands. And normally, since speaking is a free action, it can be done when it is not your turn, but this would defeat the purpose of the limit and/or complicate what happens if the necromancer gives several commands before his turn and then wants to cast a spell, so commands can only be given on his turn. Thoughts?


the first thing that comes to mind is that most spells say commanding something (like orb of fire) is a move action but i like you take on it and if that works for you go with it


Keep in mind that you are quoting the original text of a spell written over thirty years ago. It says kind instead of type or subtype because, at the time, there was no type or subtype.

Verdant Wheel

How does a "mindless" undead comprehend your commands?
To what extent must you exert yourself to ensure that your will is obeyed?

After looking around the rule books, I could not find any direct answers to these problems. It says mindless undead will obey basic commands ("come here" "go there" "fight" "stand still" per Command Undead p257), but that is it.

Now looking to the Handle Animal skill, it looks like mindless undead automatically know the following tricks:
Attack
Come
Defend
Down
Guard
Heel
Work

I have a Cleric in my game who pumped CHA and is taking the Command Undead series of feats. I want him to love his character. What else might he be able to get his unliving mindless minions to do?

For example, "Seek and Destroy": Level check? Expend a Channel Attempt? Allow him to "push" an undead to perform more complicated tricks?

Looking for ideas!
(Hold your sale's pitches though, thanks)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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Stop using necromancy spells on 4 year old threads, man!

Verdant Wheel

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Cyrad,
Three things.
1) it's not a crime and nobody cares
2) i am not a fan of redundant threads
3) why post at all if you have nothing to contribute?

Anybody out there use Handle Animal rules to govern the Commanding of Mindless Undead?


I'm thinking you point with your wand of enervation(Which you just used) and say, "You, attack the elf, you attack the dwarf, and you, attack the unicorn". You thought the horses might be useful, so the skeliton just attacks the unicorn. The skeleton won't last past the first round of combat, so it won't turn on the horses.
If the enemy party has a Drow priestess in chains, she's safe for the same reason.
If it's a group of statues with an illusion on them, the skelitons will keep attacking the statues even after the illusion comes down. They're mindless and will attack the closest thing to what they were told to attack till destroyed or told to stop.

Verdant Wheel

can i tell the skeleton to search for unicorns in the next room and kill them if "he" sees them? (Seek)

or to bring me back their horned heads? (Fetch)

or to throw their own heads at the unicorns? (Perform)

?


rainzax wrote:

can i tell the skeleton to search for unicorns in the next room and kill them if "he" sees them? (Seek)

or to bring me back their horned heads? (Fetch)

or to throw their own heads at the unicorns? (Perform)

?

Yes, no, and no.

If the skeleton does not find a unicorn he will keep looking, possibly forever.
An unseen servant will fetch heads for you. You'll need create undead to make a headless horror that can throw it's own head at creatures.
You could give a skeleton a bow and arrow and tell it to "go shoot anyone in the next room" like in Diablo. Animate too many and it will shoot at you when it's uncontrolled.
You could alter the spell to make it behave like an unseen servant. That's more in the spirit of homebrew.

Verdant Wheel

Goth Guru,
Are you using "common sense" or are you "winging it" or are you citing the rules? Not trying to be petty. I am curious what else is possible. Essentially "ought a necromancer's level be a factor in the commanding of undead?" (besides just HD and save DC)

For example the original poster asks whether or not the free action involved with commanding undead can be used to issue slightly different commands to large numbers of undead. It's a good question. I could make an argument for either side. Where in the action economy is this situated?

And why can't I ask a skeleton to fetch me a severed unicorn head?


I was trying to follow the OPs lead of using how the spell is written.
If the GM is ok with adding "The undead created will follow one simple command till destroyed, given a new command, or becomes uncontrolled." to the spell then fine. Tell skelly to bring you a unicorn head. I don't think he will succeed in cutting the head off a live unicorn, but your necromancer is free to blame the skeleton.

Verdant Wheel

i'm looking for a homebrew solution, if that isn't clear.

what is a "simple command" exactly? Can a 13th level Cleric command his entire army (52 single-HD skeletons) to attack different opponents with a free action?

I might qualify every command listed under the Handle Animal skill as "simple," 90% of which are absolutely appropriate for undead without blinking:

Spoiler:

Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

Come (DC 15): The animal comes to you, even if it normally would not do so.

Defend (DC 20): The animal defends you (or is ready to defend you if no threat is present), even without any command being given. Alternatively, you can command the animal to defend another specific character.

Down (DC 15): The animal breaks off from combat or otherwise backs down. An animal that doesn't know this trick continues to fight until it must flee (due to injury, a fear effect, or the like) or its opponent is defeated.

Fetch (DC 15): The animal goes and gets something. If you do not point out a specific item, the animal fetches a random object.

Guard (DC 20): The animal stays in place and prevents others from approaching.

Heel (DC 15): The animal follows you closely, even to places where it normally wouldn't go.

Perform (DC 15): The animal performs a variety of simple tricks, such as sitting up, rolling over, roaring or barking, and so on.

Seek (DC 15): The animal moves into an area and looks around for anything that is obviously alive or animate.

Stay (DC 15): The animal stays in place, waiting for you to return. It does not challenge other creatures that come by, though it still defends itself if it needs to.

Track (DC 20): The animal tracks the scent presented to it. (This requires the animal to have the scent ability.)

Work (DC 15): The animal pulls or pushes a medium or heavy load.

so, as i do not think Handle Undead should be a skill per se, maybe just a level check? plus Charisma? Or just concentration? with a bonus equal to # of Channel Dice? and how many HD of undead can be commanded per command? does it matter if you issue one blanket command or several discrete commands? what action type? does "advanced" commands ever come on the table? at what level?

the unicorn is kind of besides the point.


Point to an army and say"Skeletons, attack!"
Point ahead and say,"Bring me a unicorn's head."
Just one thing, no ifs, ands, or buts!
If you don't point to a specific undead, all the mindless undead under your control will obey.

Verdant Wheel

So, two hands, two commands?

Goth Guru you are officially "winging it" which isn't helpful.


Give the undead colored nametags? "Red team, kill unicorns, blue team kill dwarves," Etc. Probably too complicated for their decaying brains? that's where the charisma check is required. I've never even played a necromancer so I don't even know if I'm helping, but just thought I'd see if I can help.

If all else fails, I'd say just wing it, or ask the GM. Maybe experiment with what size of command becomes too "overpowered."

Verdant Wheel

I am the DM.

The Cleric in my game pumped his CHA to 17, chose negative energy, and picked up the Selective Channel and Command Undead feats.

I want to settle these questions ahead of time before they come up in the game.


Oh, ok. As the DM, just tell them what constitutes simple for you. A ghoul lieutenant could probably handle more.

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