Hey all.
I listen to my gaming books at work off of Adobe Reader with the 'Read Out Loud' option. Yet when I purchased Paizo products there is always tag at the bottom and top of the page:
someone@yahoo.com Dec 18 2010 160540664
I guess this is a purchase stamp or something. Anyways, Reader reads this and a long series of invisible numbers every time. Is there anyway I can take this stamp off of the PDF or at least skip or hide it?
Thank you for your time and the great products.
- Gerald
Hey all.
I listen to my gaming books at work off of Adobe Reader with the 'Read Out Loud' option. Yet when I purchased Paizo products there is always tag at the bottom and top of the page:
someone@yahoo.com Dec 18 2010 160540664
I guess this is a purchase stamp or something. Anyways, Reader reads this and a long series of invisible numbers every time. Is there anyway I can take this stamp off of the PDF or at least skip or hide it?
Thank you for your time and the great products.
- Gerald
Not legally. Those are basically watermarks, used to show that this is your PDF. It's basically done to keep people from getting a PDF and then putting it onto the internet so everyone can download them.
Anyway, the PDFs are locked so you can't edit them.
Hey all.
I listen to my gaming books at work off of Adobe Reader with the 'Read Out Loud' option. Yet when I purchased Paizo products there is always tag at the bottom and top of the page:
someone@yahoo.com Dec 18 2010 160540664
I guess this is a purchase stamp or something. Anyways, Reader reads this and a long series of invisible numbers every time. Is there anyway I can take this stamp off of the PDF or at least skip or hide it?
Thank you for your time and the great products.
- Gerald
Not legally. Those are basically watermarks, used to show that this is your PDF. It's basically done to keep people from getting a PDF and then putting it onto the internet so everyone can download them.
Anyway, the PDFs are locked so you can't edit them.
This causes an accessibility problem for blind users, then. Which is a shame because I thought the text pdfs were readable by screen readers, and was recommending two blind gamer friends of mine buy them. I'll have to tell them not to bother (unless the JAWS screenreading software has a way past it that the Adobe program itself doesn't).
Not that Gerald Sarrells is blind (I have no idea) but screen reading issues are something I pay attention to. Gerald, thanks for bringing it up.
I am not sure how the encoding works but I wonder if there is a way to make the watermark "unreadable" by screenreading technology, so the copy protection can stay in place while the document becomes more accessible.
For a progressive gaming company which features blind oracles as a new PC class, this should be regarded deeply embarrassing.
I just tested this with Acrobat 9, and page 4 of Classic Horrors Revisited (The Derro Introduction) and on.
The watermark was not read aloud.
I looked this over, and PDF does seem to have standards about what to read aloud.
Maybe things weren't always properly tagged, or the reader is too old.
Anyway, if you have the PDFs you want to recommend to your friends, I'd suggest copying them (temporarily) to their computer to try their specific applications on the specific PDFs you want them to have. So you can see how it works out.
I don't know how well the usual RPG layout (with sidebars and so on) works with screen reading software.
I guess it would be a good idea to talk to Paizo about this and see whether they already keep in mind read-aloud features when they make their PDFs, for the sake of those who can't see the text, or those who just want it read to them by their computer, and if not, if they would.
But I'd say this is good news: There's ways to keep the watermark there and still keep it unreadable.
Update: I thought that maybe this was a recent thing - maybe they only managed to make the watermark unreadable in the last couple of months or so.
So I started Burnt Offerings. That's one of my oldest Paizo PDFs.
No watermarks were read out.
Maybe your reader isn't up to date?
For a progressive gaming company which features blind oracles as a new PC class, this should be regarded deeply embarrassing.
Aw come on. First of all, oracles with shrouded vision (which are totally not blind, only short-sighted - they actually get super vision in a limited distance.) have nothing to do with it.
And second, being read the watermark would not be the end of the world.
And finally, as I have found out, it might actually be a software problem, not a problem with the PDFs.
I've often set my PDFs to read out loud so I can keep my hands free to prep stuff for my games. I've run into the "read watermark" issue a lot, but some of the PDF don't read the watermark. So some do, and some don't. Haven't tried this with Reader X yet or anything, but I have wondered if there were some settings I could tinker with.
Chief Technical Officer
|
I've often set my PDFs to read out loud so I can keep my hands free to prep stuff for my games. I've run into the "read watermark" issue a lot, but some of the PDF don't read the watermark. So some do, and some don't. Haven't tried this with Reader X yet or anything, but I have wondered if there were some settings I could tinker with.
The watermark is always applied in a consistent fashion, so I have no idea why the software would read it some times and not others.
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
I don't know how well the usual RPG layout (with sidebars and so on) works with screen reading software.
Reading order is a function of the page layout software. Our standard workflow results in a default reading order that should generally be pretty good, except for weird stuff like tables (for which there's no really good answer anyway).
Most of the time, the default reading order will put sidebars and captions and such at the end of the main chunk of text they accompany.
I've often set my PDFs to read out loud so I can keep my hands free to prep stuff for my games. I've run into the "read watermark" issue a lot, but some of the PDF don't read the watermark. So some do, and some don't. Haven't tried this with Reader X yet or anything, but I have wondered if there were some settings I could tinker with.The watermark is always applied in a consistent fashion, so I have no idea why the software would read it some times and not others.
I haven't done any kind of scientific study of this, its entirely possible that these have been different version of Reader, for example, as I went from 9 to 8.
As I said, I'm not sure if there are some settings I'm not properly tinkering with or what.
|
So for giggles and grins I decided to try a few and see what happened.
I am running Mac OS 10.6.5 and using Adobe Reader 9.4.1
I ran a few Paizo PDFs, a few 3PP PDFs and some real old PDFs. No problem with watermarks on the newer PDFs. On the older PDFs, that were essentially just image scans, it "read" the text... sort of. Sometimes it read words, other times it read seemingly random letters.
The old stuff was like listening to a story while on acid.
Not that I know what THAT would be like... just imagining :)
Well I'm happy that you guys are so responsive, I didn't think I would get so much help and interesting information already.
Update: I thought that maybe this was a recent thing - maybe they only managed to make the watermark unreadable in the last couple of months or so.
So I started Burnt Offerings. That's one of my oldest Paizo PDFs.
No watermarks were read out.
Maybe your reader isn't up to date?
I just updated to Reader X and it's the same problem. It wouldn't have helped at work I'm afraid since I don't have privileges to change a program. So in the end, it doesn't matter if you have Adobe 8,9, or 10 it will give you the same problem.
---
I tested it out and it seems that only certain documents skip watermarks when read out loud.
Watermarks that aren't read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Howl of the Carrion King
Watermarks that are read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Player's Guide
Kingmaker: Player's Guide
The Pathfinder Corebook
So for giggles and grins I decided to try a few and see what happened.
I am running Mac OS 10.6.5 and using Adobe Reader 9.4.1
I ran a few Paizo PDFs, a few 3PP PDFs and some real old PDFs. No problem with watermarks on the newer PDFs. On the older PDFs, that were essentially just image scans, it "read" the text... sort of. Sometimes it read words, other times it read seemingly random letters.
The old stuff was like listening to a story while on acid.
Not that I know what THAT would be like... just imagining :)
LOL Yea's it's pretty funky and a little distracting to listen to. I timed it and I found that it takes 39 seconds to read if it's set to the standard 190 wpm. I like listening to it at 150 wpm so it might take longer than usual for me.
---
In the end I think this problem has to do in how the documents are created since Howl of the Carrion King skips this problem. I don't know if there is anyway to look further into this but, again, thanks for all the help.
- Gerald
I never knew that Adobe Reader could do that. I guess you learn something new every day.
Yea, it's awesome. In the Menu Bar go View > Read Out Loud > Activate Read Out Loud. Then do it over again to choose how much to read.
Watermarks that are read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Player's Guide
Kingmaker: Player's Guide
The Pathfinder Corebook
Thanks for the specific examples. I tried those, and they do the same for me.
I guess there's some hiccup in the process, but with these specific examples, Paizo can sic their code monkeys on this and look it up.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
|
Watermarks that are read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Player's Guide
Kingmaker: Player's Guide
The Pathfinder CorebookThanks for the specific examples. I tried those, and they do the same for me.
I guess there's some hiccup in the process, but with these specific examples, Paizo can sic their code monkeys on this and look it up.
Just a thought - the Core rulebook has had several versions of the PDF released. Are you testing the most recent, current version?
Just a thought - the Core rulebook has had several versions of the PDF released. Are you testing the most recent, current version?
Watermarks that are read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Player's Guide
Kingmaker: Player's Guide
The Pathfinder CorebookThanks for the specific examples. I tried those, and they do the same for me.
I guess there's some hiccup in the process, but with these specific examples, Paizo can sic their code monkeys on this and look it up.
I'm new to Pathfinder so I'm not quite sure, I thought there was only one version. My download queue says that it is the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook and the cover of the book offers the same information. I downloaded it a couple of days ago if that makes any difference.
What different versions are there? How do I find out which mine is?
Just a thought - the Core rulebook has had several versions of the PDF released. Are you testing the most recent, current version?
Watermarks that are read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Player's Guide
Kingmaker: Player's Guide
The Pathfinder CorebookThanks for the specific examples. I tried those, and they do the same for me.
I guess there's some hiccup in the process, but with these specific examples, Paizo can sic their code monkeys on this and look it up.
I'm new to Pathfinder so I'm not quite sure, I thought there was only one version. My download queue says that it is the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook and the cover of the book offers the same information. I downloaded it a couple of days ago if that makes any difference.
What different versions are there? How do I find out which mine is?
The current download is the 4th printing, Paizo updates the book with errata when it reprints.
The current download is the 4th printing, Paizo updates the book with errata when it reprints.
Ah that's good then, so I must have the 4th printing.
If this issue is fixed do you guys think I could get my current downloads replaced with documents that do not read the watermarks out loud? Who should I e-mail or talk to in that case? I suppose Customer Service would be best.
Gerald, unfortunately we have to nail down why the watermark is being read before we can do any replacements. Can you re-download something and see if it reads the watermark on a newer or older version of the file?
Just a thought - the Core rulebook has had several versions of the PDF released. Are you testing the most recent, current version?
Watermarks that are read out loud:
Fire of Legacy: Player's Guide
Kingmaker: Player's Guide
The Pathfinder CorebookThanks for the specific examples. I tried those, and they do the same for me.
I guess there's some hiccup in the process, but with these specific examples, Paizo can sic their code monkeys on this and look it up.
I'm not 100% sure, but the Core Rulebook is of the 4th printing, meaning it's quite new.
Gerald, unfortunately we have to nail down why the watermark is being read before we can do any replacements. Can you re-download something and see if it reads the watermark on a newer or older version of the file?
Hi Liz,
I downloaded the core book again and it is still doing it I'm afraid. I also downloaded the book into chapters to see what would happen and it also had the watermarks read out loud. (I think that's what you wanted me to do, if I was wrong then tell me, sorry)
Gerald, unfortunately we have to nail down why the watermark is being read before we can do any replacements. Can you re-download something and see if it reads the watermark on a newer or older version of the file?
If it's any help: It worked correctly with my Burnt Offerings PDF, and even though those were updated one or more times, I'm quite sure those PDFs are older than the 4th Printing Core PDF as well as the other books mentioned.
To add some info:
Core Book: 4th printing, personalised Oct 14 2010; watermark is read
Kingmaker Player's Guide: personalised Mar 31 2010; watermark is read
LoF PG: personalised Feb 19 2009; watermark is read
Elves of Golarion: personalised Oct 23 2008, watermark is read
and in the control group:
Burnt offerings: personalised Sep 12 2007; watermark is NOT read
Bestiary 2: personalised Dec 14 2010; watermark is NOT read
Dwarves of Golarion: personalised Dec 21 2009; watermark is NOT read
A History of Ashes: personalised Jun 14, 2008; watermark is NOT read
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Gerald, unfortunately we have to nail down why the watermark is being read before we can do any replacements. Can you re-download something and see if it reads the watermark on a newer or older version of the file?If it's any help: It worked correctly with my Burnt Offerings PDF, and even though those were updated one or more times, I'm quite sure those PDFs are older than the 4th Printing Core PDF as well as the other books mentioned.
To add some info:
Core Book: 4th printing, personalised Oct 14 2010; watermark is read
Kingmaker Player's Guide: personalised Mar 31 2010; watermark is read
LoF PG: personalised Feb 19 2009; watermark is readElves of Golarion: personalised Oct 23 2008, watermark is read
and in the control group:
Burnt offerings: personalised Sep 12 2007; watermark is NOT read
Bestiary 2: personalised Dec 14 2010; watermark is NOT read
Dwarves of Golarion: personalised Dec 21 2009; watermark is NOT read
A History of Ashes: personalised Jun 14, 2008; watermark is NOT read
I really can't see any kind of pattern here. The watermark is applied the same way for every file. And pairs like Elves of Golarion and Dwarves of Golarion, or Core Rulebook and Bestiary 2, show that even when we use the same layout templates, you get different results.
Can some other folks tell us if you get exactly the same results for each product KaeYoss listed?
I really can't see any kind of pattern here. The watermark is applied the same way for every file. And pairs like Elves of Golarion and Dwarves of Golarion, or Core Rulebook and Bestiary 2, show that even when we use the same layout templates, you get different results.Can some other folks tell us if you get exactly the same results for each product KaeYoss listed?
I don't have access to all of them, but I can confirm these are the same:
Bestiary 2: watermark is NOT readKingmaker Player's Guide: watermark is read
Some more observations:
I wanted to check the (new style) player's guides (i.e. the free, download-only ones, not the old ones for the first two APs or the Companion ones).
Serpent's Skull reads the watermark.
Council of Thieves does not.
As for companions:
Wrong with
Taldor
Osirion
But right with Second Darkness, also
Quadira
Cheliax
Andoran
Adventurer's Armory
And so on.
At first I thought maybe it was something wrong with the OGL Version of the books, but Second Darkness does it right, too (and ALL PFRPG ones do).
Did you maybe change the design template after Second Darkness (which was the very first Companion) to fine tune things, and then kept it as it was until you changed over to PFRPG?
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
Did you maybe change the design template after Second Darkness (which was the very first Companion) to fine tune things, and then kept it as it was until you changed over to PFRPG?
It's certainly possible that some minor thing that we wouldn't expect to make any difference changed that way. I'm wondering if the difference may just be the proximity of the body text box to the watermark.
I usually (but not always) only checked the title page, which only contains the book's title as actual text (at least that's how it seems to me with the select text tool).
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
I usually (but not always) only checked the title page, which only contains the book's title as actual text (at least that's how it seems to me with the select text tool).
Hmm. The body text box is invisible, and could be much larger than you think. Do your results vary if you try different pages within the same product?
Just checked that with "Dwarves of Golarion", and the watermark isn´t read (marked jun 10, 2010). On the title page, the words "Pathfinder" and "Companion" are not read, but the trademark notices are. (as a side note, the alignments for the gods are read quite funny: NE is read as northeast, and LG is read as large)
With "Elves of Golarion", the watermark is read aloud (Jan 27, 2009). Even a redownload with todays date doesn´t change that.
Got to be going, If I have the time, I will test others later.
Stefan
Here are my results so far:
Seven days to the Grave, May 20, 2010, chapter-wise download, Abadar: reads watermarks – twice each time, with some seeming random numbers after the first time.
City of Golden Death; Apr 22, 2010 – no problem (other than it can´t read “Golden Death” on the title page properly and does it letter by letter.)
Rivers Run Red; Apr 22, 2010 – no problem, but does not read “Pathfinder” and “Kingmaker” on title pages at all.
Classic treasures revisited; Apr 22, 2010 – no problem
Guide to Korvosa; May 24, 2010 – no problem
PF Rulebook, 2nd printing, Aug 22, 2009– reads watermarks several times over and reads random numbers (on title page, water mark is only shown partially, it went over the left border so that only the end is visible.) Adobe Acrobat crashed on me while testing this.
Serpents Skull Players Guide (today): Reads watermark twice before and twice after the content of the page, with random numbers.
Council of Thieves Players Guide (today): perfect.
Second Darkness Companion (today): the order of reading was off on the TOC page, but otherwise fine.
Qadira(today): perfect.
Osirion; April 30, 2009 – reads watermark several times, title as well.
Andoran; Jan 20, 2010 – perfect
Adventurers Armory; April 22, 2010 - perfect
It seems that I get the same results as KaeYoss, and I tested it on more that the title page on several files, with the same results. With wildly differing dates from his files, I would guess that it has something to do with how the pdf in question reacts to watermarking - i.e. if the watermark is added as readable text or not. I have no idea how this can be influenced if at all. I´m using Adobe Acrobat Professional 9.0.0, but I don´t think that this makes a difference.
Stefan
|
Chief Technical Officer
|
It seems that I get the same results as KaeYoss, and I tested it on more that the title page on several files, with the same results. With wildly differing dates from his files, I would guess that it has something to do with how the pdf in question reacts to watermarking - i.e. if the watermark is added as readable text or not. I have no idea how this can be influenced if at all. I´m using Adobe Acrobat Professional 9.0.0, but I don´t think that this makes a difference.
The watermark is added the same exact way for everything.
I'm becoming convinced that there's something about the specific page layout involved here.
FYI, I asked a friend of mine to read a chapter from the Bestiary using JAWS Screen Reading Software. This is different, but more sophisticated than Adobe's "read aloud" function---it is meant to serve as a primary reading service for visually impaired computer users.
The results:
- The watermark IS read. (This didn't bother him as much as the next thing--he's used to ignoring extraneous aspects of pages, such as when the software reads various URLs off a Webpage, etc.)
- What he did find problematic was that columns are not always read in sequence. For example, stats for one monster get overlaid atop another monster's descriptive text (the example he gave me was that goblin descriptive text ran into the bugbear statblock before going back to goblin descriptive text... I'm not sure how that happened as I don't think the two are next to each other, but I need to look). This is likely Bestiary specific; I will ask him to try some other documents that have fewer statblocks and images that may cause text wrapping issues.
- He said overall, it was decent as a readable .pdf because there are no text-as-images or text superimposed over images. The watermark and reading order issues are present---but despite these issues they are more readable than many other gaming .pdfs.
- What he did find problematic was that columns are not always read in sequence.
I never thought to mention this but I have been facing the same problem with the Legacy of FIre Player's Guide. On page 2 Reader begins reading outloud the second column first (about Dwarves) and then the first column second. I checked the Reading Order preferences and tried all three options (left-to-right, infer reading order, in raw print stream) and had the same problem. On page 3 it goes back to normal order. Then page 4 the columns switch again into the wrong order.
Another thing I noticed (this is very small and not a bother) is that it reads the Pathfinder header at the top of each page. Again, this isn't a problem but it could have Reader skip it would be more seamless to have read out loud.
I have listened to 30 pages of the Howl of the Carrion King and it's nearly perfect. No watermarks and everything is exactly in order. I just thought I would mention it if it helps you get an idea of which layouts actually work with Reader.
Has there been any solutions to this issue. Eh... I'm far from complaining, just curious.
Ah okay, no prob :) Good luck!