Is it a bad idea to let a PC do this with Leadership?


Advice


So I have been running Kingmaker and due to the nature of the game I suggested Leadership as a useful feat. One of my PCs (a blind Oracle) asked if he could have a hound archon as a follower/seeing eye dog and I am a bit...apprehensive about letting him have it. I do have a slight idea as to how I could introduce it but I would like input on some things.

First from looking at the CR calculation table I see that an NPC that has X character levels has a CL of X-1. Would it be fair to treat a CL X monster as a X+1 level cohort then?

Second has anyone else let PCs take creatures (especially extra-planar ones) as followers before? Did it turn out okay or not so much?

Third I am pretty sure if I do allow it that I would remove it's ability to teleport at will (this happens to fit in with how it is introduced quite well). I just think it is an ability that could be abused too much, especially in a game like Kingmaker. Are there any other abilities that I may have overlooked that could cause problems?


Thornybat wrote:

So I have been running Kingmaker and due to the nature of the game I suggested Leadership as a useful feat. One of my PCs (a blind Oracle) asked if he could have a hound archon as a follower/seeing eye dog and I am a bit...apprehensive about letting him have it. I do have a slight idea as to how I could introduce it but I would like input on some things.

First from looking at the CR calculation table I see that an NPC that has X character levels has a CL of X-1. Would it be fair to treat a CL X monster as a X+1 level cohort then?

Second has anyone else let PCs take creatures (especially extra-planar ones) as followers before? Did it turn out okay or not so much?

Third I am pretty sure if I do allow it that I would remove it's ability to teleport at will (this happens to fit in with how it is introduced quite well). I just think it is an ability that could be abused too much, especially in a game like Kingmaker. Are there any other abilities that I may have overlooked that could cause problems?

The oracle would need to be at least 9th level in order to acquire the services of the Hound Archon. But they are listed in the Monster Cohort section.

It would work as per normal from the MM. You shouldn't need to adjust anything. Just make sure it has personality, it's not a slave to the pc.


I've always let my players use planar, material, etc. cohorts as long as they "make sense" in relation to the campaign. For instance, no Frost Giant cohorts in a desert campaign.

However, there was one player I had to deny; she wanted a sentient mini-gelatinous cube (2' X 2'), that she kept in a metal container, as a cohort. Not really an issue until she wanted to give it class levels to make up for its uselessness. I said she could keep it as a pet, but not as a cohort. Then she proceeded to research a spell to give the ooze an INT score...I had the mini-gelatinous cube "grow" and crawl out of the box and eat her research while she was out; she got angry and killed the ooze. Problem solved.

I don't see a problem with the Archon's teleport ability; like Marrack said, a cohort isn't a slave. Cohorts are just NPCs that really like the PCs (meaning you have control of them should you choose).


Necromancer wrote:

I've always let my players use planar, material, etc. cohorts as long as they "make sense" in relation to the campaign. For instance, no Frost Giant cohorts in a desert campaign.

However, there was one player I had to deny; she wanted a sentient mini-gelatinous cube (2' X 2'), that she kept in a metal container, as a cohort. Not really an issue until she wanted to give it class levels to make up for its uselessness. I said she could keep it as a pet, but not as a cohort. Then she proceeded to research a spell to give the ooze an INT score...I had the mini-gelatinous cube "grow" and crawl out of the box and eat her research while she was out; she got angry and killed the ooze. Problem solved.

I don't see a problem with the Archon's teleport ability; like Marrack said, a cohort isn't a slave. Cohorts are just NPCs that really like the PCs (meaning you have control of them should you choose).

Ahh, the cube pet. It's just wants to slime you....seriously, how bad can it be. :)


Marrack wrote:
Necromancer wrote:

I've always let my players use planar, material, etc. cohorts as long as they "make sense" in relation to the campaign. For instance, no Frost Giant cohorts in a desert campaign.

However, there was one player I had to deny; she wanted a sentient mini-gelatinous cube (2' X 2'), that she kept in a metal container, as a cohort. Not really an issue until she wanted to give it class levels to make up for its uselessness. I said she could keep it as a pet, but not as a cohort. Then she proceeded to research a spell to give the ooze an INT score...I had the mini-gelatinous cube "grow" and crawl out of the box and eat her research while she was out; she got angry and killed the ooze. Problem solved.

I don't see a problem with the Archon's teleport ability; like Marrack said, a cohort isn't a slave. Cohorts are just NPCs that really like the PCs (meaning you have control of them should you choose).

Ahh, the cube pet. It's just wants to slime you....seriously, how bad can it be. :)

The problem was she was handling this little side project while the group's patron's keep was under siege; the other players needed her participation, but didn't want to make a fuss over it. That, and she always picked up "pets" only to forget about them a session later.


That sounds scarily similar to a small child putting bugs in jars and then forgetting to feed them... Did she ever empty out her bag of holding to discover several dozen dead little critters?

Thinking more about it maybe the teleportation wouldn't be so bad. Perhaps it would wander in and out of the picture, only accompanying his friend when he thinks his help really is needed.


Thornybat wrote:

That sounds scarily similar to a small child putting bugs in jars and then forgetting to feed them... Did she ever empty out her bag of holding to discover several dozen dead little critters?

Thinking more about it maybe the teleportation wouldn't be so bad. Perhaps it would wander in and out of the picture, only accompanying his friend when he thinks his help really is needed.

If it is regular teleport, then just make sure to heavily enforce the familiartiy rules for locations on the Hound Archon.

Remember it's life is normally in the outer planes. Coming here to work for this mortal is litterally stepping into a whole new world for the first time. It won't know where ANYTHING is to teleport TO.

Obviously if this cohort has a history of being here before his familiarity with certain area's would be better but still, this is not his world or his home. Be stringent on the spells limitations and should be a powerful but not broken ability to start with.

But it WILL get broken as the cohort travels and learns. And anytime they need something from 'home' they WILL have the Archon 'fetch'.


That is the part about teleport that had me edgy, said PC is a good friend of mine but he has a way of trying to abuse anything that he can.

I think I may be okay if I remember that the PC isn't in total control, he's helping his friend not obeying his master. I'll make it clear that while the Hound Archon may look like a dog at times, it does not think like one...


Familiarity isn't that much of a hindrance for a Hound Archon - they get greater teleport rather than the more limited teleport - the Archon will need a description only, and the ability either works perfectly or simply fails. The real limitation on it is the weight limit, which you should enforce rigorously.

And while the Archon may think the PC is just swell, it is still an exemplar of Lawful-ness and Good-ness, seeking to guide the PC to be a better person, and possibly to hang out with a better sort of people. (It will like a Chaotic Good character just slightly more than a Lawful Evil character.) If you ever thought a paladin in the party was annoying and judgemental, at least the paladin had a lifetime of experience in dealing with fallible mortals. The Archon won't have more than a few hours of dealings with mortals, and they were either extremely good persons themselves or really bad people that it was attacking. Think of him as having led a sheltered life in an extremely foreign country.


bittergeek wrote:

Familiarity isn't that much of a hindrance for a Hound Archon - they get greater teleport rather than the more limited teleport - the Archon will need a description only, and the ability either works perfectly or simply fails. The real limitation on it is the weight limit, which you should enforce rigorously.

And while the Archon may think the PC is just swell, it is still an exemplar of Lawful-ness and Good-ness, seeking to guide the PC to be a better person, and possibly to hang out with a better sort of people. (It will like a Chaotic Good character just slightly more than a Lawful Evil character.) If you ever thought a paladin in the party was annoying and judgemental, at least the paladin had a lifetime of experience in dealing with fallible mortals. The Archon won't have more than a few hours of dealings with mortals, and they were either extremely good persons themselves or really bad people that it was attacking. Think of him as having led a sheltered life in an extremely foreign country.

Yep that's dead on, I played in a game with a similar situation and the GM played the Hound to the Hilt as a no nonsense, humorless, judgemental exemplar of LGishness. The player was ready to throttle the Archon more often than not.

I don't remember the Teleport being an issue, but I also don't remember it ever teleporting anyone other than itself. It did fetch potions, a True resurection scroll; and a bag of holding allowed us to dump a bunch of low-value coins into our communal stash (GM was/is an encumbrance\space nazi).


Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Concerning the hound archon's greater teleport ability, just remember that the archon cannot take anyone with him. It's just himself plus up to 50 lbs. of gear. As a GM, I'd probably be more annoyed by always having to remember its constant magic circle against evil and aura of menace.

Scarab Sages

Use it as a cohort, but make sure to give it a strong personality.

It's a LG Archon - any remotely evil act will have the player looking for a new cohort.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thornybat wrote:


Third I am pretty sure if I do allow it that I would remove it's ability to teleport at will (this happens to fit in with how it is introduced quite well). I just think it is an ability that could be abused too much, especially in a game like Kingmaker. Are there any other abilities that I may have overlooked that could cause problems?

Just remember that the archon can't teleport anything other than itself and 50lbs worth of baggage. which puts it on it's own when it does so.


Another thing to consider; If you think Hound Archon Cohort is too powerful, consider this:

Unlike most of your general list of followers / cohorts, Archons are, for all points and purposes, active pawns in the Eternal War (Good V Evil, Heaven V Hell, call it what you will). That means its mere presence is bound to bring along at least some sporadic trouble for the PC, even if Hound is -not- trying to actively do its part for the War effort (which it probably would).

Also, Hound Archons are so Lawful and so Good it's nauseating - and rather intelligent and judgmental to boot. In light of that, and the fact that Cohorts are willing, loyal followers of the PC an not brainwashed minions, you should make it clear to Pc that he is always being scrutinized and watched by his Archon. At the very least, if his behavior is not in line with Archon's own standards of goodness and morality, Archon will depart. At the worst, anyone in the party will find that Archon actively interferes, with varying degrees of violence and force, with any of their attempts to misbehave or do evil.

So, unless you're running a party of solely consisting of Paladins, LG Priests and the like, adding Archon to the mix is like spitting into that ugly bald leather clad fat dude's beer in a biker bar.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zaister wrote:
Concerning the hound archon's greater teleport ability, just remember that the archon cannot take anyone with him. It's just himself plus up to 50 lbs. of gear.

Party hops into a bag of holding and the hound archon teleports everyone to the desired location (a bag of holding weighs less than 50 lb.). Simple.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ravingdork wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Concerning the hound archon's greater teleport ability, just remember that the archon cannot take anyone with him. It's just himself plus up to 50 lbs. of gear.
Party hops into a bag of holding and the hound archon teleports everyone to the desired location (a bag of holding weighs less than 50 lb.). Simple.

Oooh.. I just love it when parties set themselves up for me like that... it's so accomodating.


I'd just remove the Teleport, or restrict it to 1/day or something like that. It solves the issue while giving the PC an interesting cohort to wander around with.

I wouldn't use it to "punish" the PC though. Try to avoid fun and creative ways to make the PC's lives miserable for doing something the book actively and directly allows you to do. (i.e. take this creature for a cohort). Its not like they are seeking some random, unique being that you have to make alot of allowances for. It is a creature that is right there, in the book, on the table, marked as "allowed". Either restrict the teleport, accept the creature as written, or deny it out right. But try to avoid allowing it just to find some creative way to screw the PC with it.

-S


Actually when I saw the weight limit on the Greater Teleport the bag of holding tactic was the first thing that came to mind. I think if nothing else I'll downgrade the Greater Teleport to a normal Teleport and perhaps put the weight limit down low enough that he can't have a bag of holding.

Everyone in the group are varying degrees of good and the Oracle himself is Neutral Good. I really like the idea of the Archon deciding that he needs to provide some guidance to this odd fellow. I don't think this would really be punishing him though, adding some friendly conflict can be a good thing sometimes, and if things get too bad the Oracle or the Hound can always part ways.


I didn't notice if anyone else had already pointed this out, but on page 316 of the Bestiary it gives examples of using monsters as cohorts for the leadership feat. It even specifically lists the hound archon as a possible choice and that it would count as a 7th level character. So, even with a maxed out leadership score, the PC would need to be at least 9th level to get one. At that point, it's somewhat moot that the hound archon can cast teleport since the party wizard can as well (yes, I know that greater teleport is better, but it's a trade off since a 7th level NPC would probably be more effective in other areas).

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I still maintain that no good will come of this.


I would point out that if you limit the teleport then you need to give the hound archon something else to make up for the what you took away. Part of the usefulness/reason/CR of the hound archon is that ability -- if the ability is lost or downgraded then the hound archon has lost a part of what makes it so good.

My suggestion is to tell the player you are ok with him having the hound archon -- however it is limited to teleporting to its superiors (in the seven heavens) to report and back to the mortal's side to aid him, in return give it either lay on hands like a paladin of the hound archon's hit dice, or maybe some small spell-like effects.

This way you take away the part you are uncomfortable with in a fashion that makes sense in game, but give back to help keep the player from feeling like all you've done is nerfed his cohort.


Abraham spalding wrote:

I would point out that if you limit the teleport then you need to give the hound archon something else to make up for the what you took away. Part of the usefulness/reason/CR of the hound archon is that ability -- if the ability is lost or downgraded then the hound archon has lost a part of what makes it so good.

My suggestion is to tell the player you are ok with him having the hound archon -- however it is limited to teleporting to its superiors (in the seven heavens) to report and back to the mortal's side to aid him, in return give it either lay on hands like a paladin of the hound archon's hit dice, or maybe some small spell-like effects.

This way you take away the part you are uncomfortable with in a fashion that makes sense in game, but give back to help keep the player from feeling like all you've done is nerfed his cohort.

You will have nerf'd the cohort. (Reporting back to the archon's superiors requires plane shift, not teleport so that doesn't even apply.) You're totally taking away one of the major uses of at-will greater teleport - battlefield mobility. Hopping around the battlefield - chasing even the fastest, most distant foe - all that is taken away without giving anything back. That sucks. If you want to limit sending the doggy to fetch things for master, put a cap on range to a mile or so, don't kill the feature for no return.

Sovereign Court

Thornybat wrote:
First from looking at the CR calculation table I see that an NPC that has X character levels has a CL of X-1. Would it be fair to treat a CL X monster as a X+1 level cohort then?

You're looking in the wrong place.

On page 316 of the bestiary a Hound Archon (without any class levels) is listed as a level 7 monster cohort.

So, at level 9 your player can have an Archon cohort (a CR4 creature).

Don't worry about any of the abilities, including the Greater Teleport, but if you are still fretting make it clear to your player that you have concerns and if it is all kinds of broken in actual play then you will send him back to the heavens on a divine mission and he will have to choose a replacement.

As for the bag of holding, that's a risk players should not take: "If a bag of holding is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag immediately ruptures and is ruined, and all contents are lost forever."
How long is the barbarian spending wrapping up every pointy thing he owns?

Don't decide that this is horrible broken until you actually play with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Abraham spalding wrote:

I would point out that if you limit the teleport then you need to give the hound archon something else to make up for the what you took away. Part of the usefulness/reason/CR of the hound archon is that ability -- if the ability is lost or downgraded then the hound archon has lost a part of what makes it so good.

The "value" of the ability did not take into account cheese tactics like putting a minaturised party into a bag of holding. Although I privately think it's a moot point, because 1. I'm not sure it can be done, and 2. A party that tries that too often at my tables... will live to regret it.

Silver Crusade

LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

I would point out that if you limit the teleport then you need to give the hound archon something else to make up for the what you took away. Part of the usefulness/reason/CR of the hound archon is that ability -- if the ability is lost or downgraded then the hound archon has lost a part of what makes it so good.

The "value" of the ability did not take into account cheese tactics like putting a minaturised party into a bag of holding. Although I privately think it's a moot point, because 1. I'm not sure it can be done, and 2. A party that tries that too often at my tables... will live to regret it.

I wouldn't allow a bag of holding. But I have allowed a portabler hole with bottle of air. It does get old though.

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

I would point out that if you limit the teleport then you need to give the hound archon something else to make up for the what you took away. Part of the usefulness/reason/CR of the hound archon is that ability -- if the ability is lost or downgraded then the hound archon has lost a part of what makes it so good.

The "value" of the ability did not take into account cheese tactics like putting a miniaturised party into a bag of holding. Although I privately think it's a moot point, because 1. I'm not sure it can be done, and 2. A party that tries that too often at my tables... will not live to regret it.

fixed?

Sovereign Court

LazarX wrote:


GeraintElberion wrote:


The "value" of the ability did not take into account cheese tactics like putting a miniaturised party into a bag of holding. Although I privately think it's a moot point, because 1. I'm not sure it can be done, and 2. A party that tries that too often at my tables... will not live to regret it.
fixed?

There are far worse fates than death....


*Sigh* My overall point is that if you are going to nerf or take away the greater teleport then give something else back in a different way that you as the GM are comfortable with.

Scarab Sages Silver Crescent Publishing

Ravingdork wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Concerning the hound archon's greater teleport ability, just remember that the archon cannot take anyone with him. It's just himself plus up to 50 lbs. of gear.
Party hops into a bag of holding and the hound archon teleports everyone to the desired location (a bag of holding weighs less than 50 lb.). Simple.

Just remember that there is no air in a bag of holding. Everyone inside (assuming they and all of their gear are under the weight limit) are subject to potential suffocation (Particularly whomever the first character was to crawl in the bag since getting in takes time). On top of that, there is a myriad of possible things a GM could do to them if they are trying to abuse the greater teleport ability like this.

The Archon might judge that the location he teleported to is not suitable to open the bag. Potential enemies or a dangerous environment might be possible reasons for this. And since he is an outsider, the air requirement in a bag of holding (otherdimensional space) may not cross his mind.

Also, since teleportation is effectively travel through space through use of otherdimensional pathways (more or less) you could always rule that teleporting with a bag of holding would have the same effect as trying to put a bag of holding into another otherdimensional storage space. It would destroy the bag and potentially damage (if not destroy) anythig inside it. The possibilities are endless...

Scarab Sages

Easy fix is to count the weight against the teleportation.

Or, if you just want to discourage it, have them sit in the bag until they decide to crawl out of it themselves. I can just imagine the expression on the guys face who fought that hound and got himself some new loot.

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