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All kidding aside (now that we officially won! again), my impression of the Blood War is that evil outsiders have been specifically designed so that individual devils are slightly stronger than their demon counterparts because there are so many more demons than their betters -- devils.
The FCII, for example, has a random encounter whereupon a Pit Fiend general is walking back home from an engagement in the Blood War where his brilliantly orchestrated strategy meant little as he was so outnumbered by the stupid, er, chaotic hordes of demons who took ridiculous loses throwing themselves haphazardly in battle but pushed back the much smaller and well functioning devil army.
This kind of thing is implied over and over in published material. Devils are better but there are just so many demons that the Blood War will always be a stalemate.
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More importantly, there are NO smart demons!
D&D Evil Outsider Designers, from Gygax to Sargent to Jacobs, have occassionally put in some "smart" demons (read: lawful) just so that there's some variety. Look at Graz'zt; ain't no way he's anything but Lawful if you look at his Fluff. And don't get started on Fraz Urb'Luu.
Likewise, they've put the occassional stupid (read: chaotic) devil in the 9 hells just so that it doesn't seem like devils are all cookie-cutter copies.
This way individual gamers can have different demon or devil personalities in their games and still play what they want. If I want my BBEG to be a cool, calculating Demon, I can have one (even though none could really exist).
The first part is definitely an interesting theory; it would certainly explain why the Bestiary contains 12 kinds of demons but only 9 kinds of devils. Of course, this might also be the case because James Jacobs seems to prefer demons to their lawful counterparts, but your theory could account for it, as well. I always thought it was crap that the demon hordes supposedly function as well as devil legions even though they didn't use any tactics at all.
However, I can't buy into your "no smart demons" theory. Balors have a listed intelligence score of 26, and other powerful demons have lesser but similarly high scores. It's not that Demons are stupid, it's that they don't plot and scheme; in other words, they don't really use their intelligence, but it's definitely there.
Now, I we're going to get into our favorite kind of fiends, I'm firmly in the Daemon camp. Neutral Evil all the way!
Creative Director
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Actually... the truth is that demons and devils are NOT designed to be balanced opposites. There's not an imaginary mirror between the types of demons and the types of devils, so that each fiend race has an opposition matchup. They're pretty much both designed with the philosophy that there should be a dozen or so monsters of various CR scores in each type, and that's about it. Two creatures of identical CRs will be relatively even matched on the average against a party, but whether or not they're evenly matched against each other isn't really the point of the game.
The Bestairy contains 12 demons versus 9 devils for two reasons:
1) Erik Mona and I really like the demons, so we pushed to have more demons in the book.
2) The Abyss has traditionally been a MUCH larger realm than Hell, and with a MUCH wider variety of regions and realms within its borders, and therefore the variety and number of demons is reflected by that.
When you go BEYOND the Bestiary and count up all the devils and demons we've invented for the game over teh past several years (mostly in the Adventure Paths), I believe there ends up being more devils than demons overall—mostly because of "Princes of Darkness" (which has over 5 new devils) and the Council of Thieves adventure path (which introduces over 6 more) are out. With "Lords of Chaos," we're adding 5 more demons to the mix, though.
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Creative Director
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Average demon Intelligence in Bestiary 1 = 15.5
Average devil Intelligence in Bestiary 1 = 14
Sorta speaks for itself! :-)
In any case, there IS no design philosophy that devils are smarter or demons are smarter. Each individual fiend is as smart as it needs to be.
Beyond the alignment, in fact, the major design philosophy is this:
Devils want to corrupt mortals to betray their own kind, to destroy their minds and make them into grist for Hell.
Demons want to destroy mortals entirely, be it by brute force or stealthy corruption; they want to crush or twist and corrupt the body.
Daemons want to consume souls. They don't care about corrupting mortals' minds or corrupting mortal's bodies at all, really, unless doing so lets them get more souls to eat.
With "Lords of Chaos," we're adding 5 more demons to the mix, though.
Good, because my group has killed every kind of demon and devil introduced so far. ;) So when does Bestiary 2 ship? I so need some new bad guys to throw at them.
Speaking of which, I have to vote for the Balor. Pit Fiends have never killed a member of my group, where as a Balor has. Of course, he went *snicker-snack*, but the odds are he will sooner or later.
As already pointed out on the thread, Pit Fiends are immune to the Balor's Vorpal Strike special ability. Why? Because the Balor cannot overcome the Pit Fiend's Regeneration.
Also, dominate monster only has an 18% chance to work on the Pit Fiend -- the Balor fails the Spell Resistance check 10% of the time, and the Pit Fiend succeeds at the saving throw 80% of the time. That is not what I call "a realistic chance of succeeding".
In point of fact, the Balor does not have a realistic chance of beating a Pit Fiend in a 1-on-1 fight at all. It is exceedingly improbable.
And for anyone saying "Tactics!" -- the Pit Fiend is both smarter and wiser than the Balor, as well as being more tactically minded by nature. Remember, it's Mariliths that are the Abyssal generals, not Balors.
Might want to check your math, kid.
Also, dominate monster only has an 18% chance to work on the Pit Fiend -- the Balor fails the Spell Resistance check 10% of the time, and the Pit Fiend succeeds at the saving throw 80% of the time. That is not what I call "a realistic chance of succeeding".
Might want to check your rules and your condescension, buster.
The Pit Fiend has SR: 31. At Caster level 20 (for the Balor), that's a 50% chance of bypassing resistance.
I'll admit an error, here; I was thinking Concentration, so I added the Balor's Charisma to the CL check. So now instead of an 18% chance, we have a 10% chance. Thanks for helping my argument. Note that I said the Balor has a 10% chance to FAIL the check.
The Pit Fiend has a +18 will save versus a DC of 27. Meaning a 9 or higher required to save - that's a 40% chance of failing the saving throw. For a grand total of a 20% chance of the combat being instantly over. At range. (Although once per day, it can attempt to use improved iron will)
Incorrect. The Pit Fiend has a +22 Will save vs a DC of 27. It has unholy aura at will, which provides a +4 resistance bonus to saving throws. This, too, has already been mentioned in this thread.
As already pointed out on the thread, Pit Fiends are immune to the Balor's Vorpal Strike special ability. Why? Because the Balor cannot overcome the Pit Fiend's Regeneration.Regeneration explicitly does not prevent limbs being removed - such from a vorpal weapon.
So what? That doesn't matter at all. Regeneration explicitly prevents creatures from dieing while the ability is active. Period -- no way out of it:
Creatures with regeneration heal damage at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as long as their regeneration is still functioning (although creatures with regeneration still fall unconscious when their hit points are below 0).
Since the vorpal property does not deal hit point damage, or indeed any damage at all, it has no actual effect on a creature whose Regeneration is active.
only one way to solve this.. bring Chalk, 60 Virgins (check the mid west), and Toll House cookies, nothing with coconut. Then we do this bum wars style.
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Director of Narrative
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Daemons want to consume souls. They don't care about corrupting mortals' minds or corrupting mortal's bodies at all, really, unless doing so lets them get more souls to eat.
But they can....and that's where we're at.
Just a dish at (hopefully) the end of the buffet. Mmmm....delicious oblivion.
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Actually... the truth is that demons and devils are NOT designed to be balanced opposites. There's not an imaginary mirror between the types of demons and the types of devils, so that each fiend race has an opposition matchup. They're pretty much both designed with the philosophy that there should be a dozen or so monsters of various CR scores in each type, and that's about it. Two creatures of identical CRs will be relatively even matched on the average against a party, but whether or not they're evenly matched against each other isn't really the point of the game.
The Bestairy contains 12 demons versus 9 devils for two reasons:
1) Erik Mona and I really like the demons, so we pushed to have more demons in the book.
2) The Abyss has traditionally been a MUCH larger realm than Hell, and with a MUCH wider variety of regions and realms within its borders, and therefore the variety and number of demons is reflected by that.
When you go BEYOND the Bestiary and count up all the devils and demons we've invented for the game over teh past several years (mostly in the Adventure Paths), I believe there ends up being more devils than demons overall—mostly because of "Princes of Darkness" (which has over 5 new devils) and the Council of Thieves adventure path (which introduces over 6 more) are out. With "Lords of Chaos," we're adding 5 more demons to the mix, though.
Yeah, I remember the hordling in the MM2 for 1e being made for just that purpose, to show the variety and weirdness that is demon kind.
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Maybe you can find enough virgins if you go really young (like... 12?) I presume these virgins are sacrifices right?60 Virgins (check the mid west)Considering how many times I've traveled through the Midwest, good luck finding those 60 virgins...
That's why I am the way I am. Thwarting evil one deflowering at a time ;)
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At 12!? (Just messing man, I don't suspect that of you lol)That's why I am the way I am. Thwarting evil one deflowering at a time ;)Maybe you can find enough virgins if you go really young (like... 12?) I presume these virgins are sacrifices right?60 Virgins (check the mid west)Considering how many times I've traveled through the Midwest, good luck finding those 60 virgins...
Oh! I misread that! I thought you meant I missed twelve virgins! D'oh!
Balor. Aside from the Vorpal thing, the Balor also has a Dominate Monster ability that has a realistic chance of succeeding if it gets past spell resistance. In contrast, the Balor is mostly immune to the Pit Fiends spell-likes, with its evil alignment, fire immunity, and constant true seeing.
Yeah except that unholy aura means the dominate monster fails on impact with no save needed. Pit Fiend is equally immune to fire, and blasphemy and the only chance the balor has is his implosion ability that he can use 1/day and only has a 5% chance of success on.
The Balor cannot escape the pit fiend.
Vorpal does not instant kill creatures with regeneration (indeed the head would simply auto reattach).
The Balor can't even hit the pit fiend reliably for damage.
The Pit fiend heals the damage the balor can do.
The Balor cannot escape grapple by a pit fiend during which the pit fiend can still full attack.
The Balor cannot win.
Yeah, I remember the hordling in the MM2 for 1e being made for just that purpose, to show the variety and weirdness that is demon kind.Actually... the truth is that demons and devils are NOT designed to be balanced opposites. There's not an imaginary mirror between the types of demons and the types of devils, so that each fiend race has an opposition matchup. They're pretty much both designed with the philosophy that there should be a dozen or so monsters of various CR scores in each type, and that's about it. Two creatures of identical CRs will be relatively even matched on the average against a party, but whether or not they're evenly matched against each other isn't really the point of the game.
The Bestairy contains 12 demons versus 9 devils for two reasons:
1) Erik Mona and I really like the demons, so we pushed to have more demons in the book.
2) The Abyss has traditionally been a MUCH larger realm than Hell, and with a MUCH wider variety of regions and realms within its borders, and therefore the variety and number of demons is reflected by that.
When you go BEYOND the Bestiary and count up all the devils and demons we've invented for the game over teh past several years (mostly in the Adventure Paths), I believe there ends up being more devils than demons overall—mostly because of "Princes of Darkness" (which has over 5 new devils) and the Council of Thieves adventure path (which introduces over 6 more) are out. With "Lords of Chaos," we're adding 5 more demons to the mix, though.
So when is our Esteemed Creative Director giving us the PF equivilant of the hordling?
If I learnt anything from Space 1999, it's that Balor cannot be stopped*
*except by possibly by ejecting him out of an airlock into space
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Creative Director
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Yeah, I remember the hordling in the MM2 for 1e being made for just that purpose, to show the variety and weirdness that is demon kind.Actually... the truth is that demons and devils are NOT designed to be balanced opposites. There's not an imaginary mirror between the types of demons and the types of devils, so that each fiend race has an opposition matchup. They're pretty much both designed with the philosophy that there should be a dozen or so monsters of various CR scores in each type, and that's about it. Two creatures of identical CRs will be relatively even matched on the average against a party, but whether or not they're evenly matched against each other isn't really the point of the game.
The Bestairy contains 12 demons versus 9 devils for two reasons:
1) Erik Mona and I really like the demons, so we pushed to have more demons in the book.
2) The Abyss has traditionally been a MUCH larger realm than Hell, and with a MUCH wider variety of regions and realms within its borders, and therefore the variety and number of demons is reflected by that.
When you go BEYOND the Bestiary and count up all the devils and demons we've invented for the game over teh past several years (mostly in the Adventure Paths), I believe there ends up being more devils than demons overall—mostly because of "Princes of Darkness" (which has over 5 new devils) and the Council of Thieves adventure path (which introduces over 6 more) are out. With "Lords of Chaos," we're adding 5 more demons to the mix, though.
Of course, hordlings were neutral evil and not demons anyway. They were Hades creatures.
THAT said... the hordling rules were based on actual random demon rules that appeared first in the 1st edition DMG and Dragon Magazine.
(starts writing DEATH OF ASMODEUS adventure path)
(Applies as author of as many of the parts as possible. Adventures, support material, you name it.)
Incidentally, I already have an idea for a support article, titled "Asmodeus is wormfood and those devil worshippers are in deep s+*@ now!"
This kind of thing is implied over and over in published material. Devils are better but there are just so many demons that the Blood War will always be a stalemate.
What's a Blood War? Name one Pathfinder book this was published in! ;-P
I bet $50 bucks that'll never happen :PPit Fiend is just two words mashed together,Yeah, like Demo-Gorgon.oh... It's ON, now!
(starts writing DEATH OF ASMODEUS adventure path)
OK, you're on!
You know that you have no chance of winning that bet, right?
The best you can do is not lose, ever. Because until forever is over, your condition "that will never happen" will not come to pass.
And afterwards, you won't get paid, either, because there won't be an afterwards, per definition!
:P
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Yeah, I remember the hordling in the MM2 for 1e being made for just that purpose, to show the variety and weirdness that is demon kind.Actually... the truth is that demons and devils are NOT designed to be balanced opposites. There's not an imaginary mirror between the types of demons and the types of devils, so that each fiend race has an opposition matchup. They're pretty much both designed with the philosophy that there should be a dozen or so monsters of various CR scores in each type, and that's about it. Two creatures of identical CRs will be relatively even matched on the average against a party, but whether or not they're evenly matched against each other isn't really the point of the game.
The Bestairy contains 12 demons versus 9 devils for two reasons:
1) Erik Mona and I really like the demons, so we pushed to have more demons in the book.
2) The Abyss has traditionally been a MUCH larger realm than Hell, and with a MUCH wider variety of regions and realms within its borders, and therefore the variety and number of demons is reflected by that.
When you go BEYOND the Bestiary and count up all the devils and demons we've invented for the game over teh past several years (mostly in the Adventure Paths), I believe there ends up being more devils than demons overall—mostly because of "Princes of Darkness" (which has over 5 new devils) and the Council of Thieves adventure path (which introduces over 6 more) are out. With "Lords of Chaos," we're adding 5 more demons to the mix, though.
Of course, hordlings were neutral evil and not demons anyway. They were Hades creatures.
THAT said... the hordling rules were based on actual random demon rules that appeared first in the 1st edition DMG and Dragon Magazine.
I remembered that (well, actually was flipping through the 1e DMG and being amazed at how little there was involving combat rules in the thing) after the "edit" button deactivated.
But, back to something someone else asked: when can we expect to see something like that in Pathfinder? I think it would be amazingly awesome to be able to construct bizarre demons that way :)
Edit: Saw your post, see below.
And, James:
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Unknown. I did this once already in Dungeon #124, after all and the game's backward compatible... Doesn't everyone have Dungeon #124? :)
So when is our Esteemed Creative Director giving us the PF equivilant of the hordling?
That was one of the four issues of my sub that were "lost in the mail" when the guard in my housing unit happened to be a gamer. :(
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I bet $50 bucks that'll never happen :PPit Fiend is just two words mashed together,Yeah, like Demo-Gorgon.oh... It's ON, now!
(starts writing DEATH OF ASMODEUS adventure path)
OK, you're on!
You know that you have no chance of winning that bet, right?
The best you can do is not lose, ever. Because until forever is over, your condition "that will never happen" will not come to pass.
And afterwards, you won't get paid, either, because there won't be an afterwards, per definition!
:P
You know, for a creature spawned from the general Maelstrom of the Abyss, you sound a lot like some of those lawyers Asmodeus has on retainer...
;)
I bet $50 bucks that'll never happen :PPit Fiend is just two words mashed together,Yeah, like Demo-Gorgon.oh... It's ON, now!
(starts writing DEATH OF ASMODEUS adventure path)
OK, you're on!
You know that you have no chance of winning that bet, right?
The best you can do is not lose, ever. Because until forever is over, your condition "that will never happen" will not come to pass.
And afterwards, you won't get paid, either, because there won't be an afterwards, per definition!
:P
You know, for a creature spawned from the general Maelstrom of the Abyss, you sound a lot like some of those lawyers Asmodeus has on retainer...
;)
Know your enemies. Know the games they like to play. Beat them at their favourite game. Watch them run to their mummies and cry.
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*Man, a person gets a little busy for a couple days and all the sudden misses out on, like, 50 posts.
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(starts writing DEATH OF ASMODEUS Adventure Path)
How does it feel / To be on your own / With no direction home / A complete unknown / Like a rolling stone
. . . . Some folks have been trying to say that Obyriths and Yugoloths make Balors and Pit Fiends worry?!?
To all you Obyrith supporters, all one of you, You Lost.
The War is over.
Tanar'ri won.
They're better.
They even have a cooler name.
To all you Yugoloth / Daemon supporters, all one-and-a-half of you, you're not even in the conversation.
You are less than.
You are beneath.
You are a waste of text.
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To quote a brilliantly written post from a Pit Fiend vs Balor Thread a few years ago:
You have the right answer -- the Devil wins -- but for the wrong reasons. It's not about stats it's about alignment.
CE SUCKS! It is crap. CE and CN are meaningful only for stupid masses of grunts. There should be a rule in D&D, any CE or CN PC or NPC can not have an INT score higher than 7. This makes it much more fathomable.
Long reign Lawful aligned entities.
BTW, the Fiendish Codex from Hell mentions that Devils are more powerful and much smarter than Demons but there are just so many more Demons that the Blood War continuously rages.
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They both lose. As they're busy in-fighting, the humanoid races continue to expand in power, with some members even rivaling the power of their greatest generals. Not long after the fight begins both parties suddenly find themselves full of holes and trapped in a field of force. Unable to teleport out and finding that their other magical abilities have failed/are failing, they are forced to die slowly, with the knowledge they were bested by that which they consider food.
Soon after, an "unrelated" celebration begins in the mortal realms.
Damn humans...
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Nice.
I conceed -- man is greater than Pit Fiend.
Heck, man invented Pit Fiend.
(And Balor and Asmodeus and Cthulhu and all the rest.)
I remember having a conversation in middle school where I was arguing how powerful vampires were and my teacher said he could easily kill 'em all: "Just close the book."
I'll never forget those exact words.
It makes you wish the laws of Physics couldn't allow temperatures to get up to Fahrenheit 451.
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Creative Director
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I'm waiting for some Obyriths to make themselves known again. Nothing better than some ancients that make even pit fiends and balors quake.
Won't happen. When I invented the obyriths, it was work for hire for Wizards of the Coast. They aren't open content, so we can't touch them.
The GOOD news is, though, that the primary inspiration for the obyriths were the qlippoth from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends, which IS open content. There's quite a few qlippoth in Bestiary 2; several reprinted from the Book of Fiends, and more brand new ones.
I'm waiting for some Obyriths to make themselves known again. Nothing better than some ancients that make even pit fiends and balors quake.Won't happen. When I invented the obyriths, it was work for hire for Wizards of the Coast. They aren't open content, so we can't touch them.
The GOOD news is, though, that the primary inspiration for the obyriths were the qlippoth from Green Ronin's Book of Fiends, which IS open content. There's quite a few qlippoth in Bestiary 2; several reprinted from the Book of Fiends, and more brand new ones.
I dont suppose the lesser spawn of cthulu (starts with an M and ends with an indflayer) was based on anything that is open?