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Hey GMs.
I am running a campaign for a large group, many of whom have never played an RPG before. The single player who HAS played before is running a Monk, who is pretty much min-maxed to the hilt, and built to grapple and FoB trip trip trip trip (or stunning blow) everything I throw at the group.
Here's my problem. Because the group is new, some are complaining to me that the fights have become boring. This is mainly due to the fact that once the lower level mobs are gone, the monk (who has a ridiculously high CMB/CMD for level 7, but the math works out) just tends to trip/stun anything I send at them. Meaning they basically whittle away at a stunned creature EVERY single fight. Yawn.
If this was a group of like gamers, I would up the EL, but these guys would all die. As it stands, I already can't make them face any sort of single enemy, since anything just gets hogtied and coup-de-graced. I think some of this math is broken, it seems rather ridiculous that a girallon can't CMB out of a grapple from a little monk his own level without rolling a natural 20. Plus a Bodak, who can kill someone with a gaze attack, just ends up as another boring hog-tied humanoid, wtf?
I think part of the problem is that myself as a new pathfinder GM, I don't quite understand how to counter something like this. Monks pretty much ignore terrain, and with Ki points they can jump to the fu&%$&%g moon, so ledges are out of the question. One boss had Freedom of Movement, that went OK.
So I suppose I am at my wits end, I have lost interest in the campaign, but I like the gaming group, so I am going to try and rebuild my encounters to be monk-proof. Does anyone have any advice? Any creatures you know who might actually make these fights interesting again? I am at my wits end, I actually bought Mouseguard and Savage Worlds yesterday, lol. Any help or advice would be great.
A few creatures to throw at the monk to make him not shine so much.
Incorporeal undead. Cannot be tripped, stunned, grappled, etc.
Oozes and slimes. Cannot be tripped, stunneed, grappled, etc. Oh and all bludegoning damage splits the oozes and the monk takes damage for each time he hits the ooze.
Remorhaz! If the monk tries to grapple it, trip it (with unarmed trip), he takes 8d6 damage. To stun it he needs to use his unarmed strike so he eats 8d6 fire damage.
Elementals: air, fire, water. Cannot be tripped, stunned, etc. Punching the fire elemental hurts, takes burn damage for attacking with unarmed strike.
Flying creatures with ranged attacks: Unless the monk can fly there is nothing he can do but use a sling (lame). Yes he may have deflect arrows but do not attack the monk attack the others, the monk cannot be hurt easily but the monk cannot hurt it either. When the others are gone then concentration all fire power on the super star monk.
Throw some oozes and fire elementals at him. I'd love to see him grapple a gelatenous cube! :-)
Creatures with 4 legs have a +4 bonus vs. trip.
As mentioned up thread, ranged attacks. Something as simple as a burning skeleton that hurts creatures who attack with natural attacks.
Gelatenous Cubes are always a favorite.
I think the best solution is to talk to your players. If possible, you should first try to talk to the new players to see what they really think, how they feel. Maybe they can put up with it, or they have suggestions of their own on what might be fun.
Then, talk to the monk. This doesn't have to be confrontation - try to pitch the conversation so that you two are on the same side, trying to find a solution to the same problem, together. You might be able to get him to lay back a little bit; he may not even realize the effect he's having. Another angle is to try to beef the other characters so that they can keep up a little better.
Including monsters that really challenge the monk is great - but be sure that you don't equally disadvantage the rest of the party. Some monsters are just a pain in the butt for everyone to fight.
In the end, the game is about having fun - for everyone. If one person is peeing on everyone else's fun, something has to be done.
What's the monks CMB/CMD? You said that a Girallon needed a natural 20 to win a grapple check. Girallon's CMB is +12, so 20 would be 32 (I know 20 is auto-success). 32-10-5-2 (Monk only adds his bab of 5 to CMD, improved grapple adds +2) = 15. So the monk has combined str and dex modifier's of 15? Assuming an even split, thats 24 str and 22 dex?
all bludegoning damage splits the oozes
no, its slashing and piercing that does that... /nitpick
TBH I don't think you have a problem here. Your player has found a way to be effective with a monk, and is having fun. Perhaps your other players should step up their game :P My suggestion, however, is to build in challenges for the monk. Have some archers plink away from the distance and suggest he should chase them down.
Otherwise just throw things at him that are immune to his strategy. Undead are immune to stunning, there's also lots of monsters that have high fort saves. Monstrous spiders are nigh-untrippable. Stuff like that. Don't do it all the time, just enough to remind your player that his strategy isn't auto-win.
all bludegoning damage splits the oozesno, its slashing and piercing that does that... /nitpick
<nods his head respectfully> your right... so many rules so easy to mix them up. hahaha
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What's the monks CMB/CMD? You said that a Girallon needed a natural 20 to win a grapple check. Girallon's CMB is +12, so 20 would be 32 (I know 20 is auto-success). 32-10-5-2 (Monk only adds his bab of 5 to CMD, improved grapple adds +2) = 15. So the monk has combined str and dex modifier's of 15? Assuming an even split, thats 24 str and 22 dex?
Without calling him and asking him, I think it takes a 28 to defeat his CMD, he's stat-built and gear-built his monk to specifically be a CMB/CMD annoyance.
I am about to call in the rust monsters...
Thank you all for the advice, I like the ooze/incorporeal/ranged advice, I guess I just have to suck it up and deal with my humanoids dying. Which is kind of sad, humanoids drive plot. And that remorhaz is going to make an entrance in my campaign very soon...
What's the monks CMB/CMD? You said that a Girallon needed a natural 20 to win a grapple check. Girallon's CMB is +12, so 20 would be 32 (I know 20 is auto-success). 32-10-5-2 (Monk only adds his bab of 5 to CMD, improved grapple adds +2) = 15. So the monk has combined str and dex modifier's of 15? Assuming an even split, thats 24 str and 22 dex?
Monks add their monk level instead of BAB to their CMB/CMD for combat maneuvers. So a 7th level monk with improved grapple has a 19 CMD out of the box. If he has a 18 dex and 18 str, dodge, and a ring of protection +2 that's a 30. Not out of the realm of possibility by any means, but he is clearly a very focused character.
What's the monks CMB/CMD? You said that a Girallon needed a natural 20 to win a grapple check. Girallon's CMB is +12, so 20 would be 32 (I know 20 is auto-success). 32-10-5-2 (Monk only adds his bab of 5 to CMD, improved grapple adds +2) = 15. So the monk has combined str and dex modifier's of 15? Assuming an even split, thats 24 str and 22 dex?Monks add their monk level instead of BAB to their CMB/CMD for combat maneuvers. So a 7th level monk with improved grapple has a 19 CMD out of the box. If he has a 18 dex and 18 str, dodge, and a ring of protection +2 that's a 30. Not out of the realm of possibility by any means, but he is clearly a very focused character.
Monks only add their monk level to their CMB, not CMD. I did forget they get to add their wisdom and the +1 ac bonus to CMD though. So I guess if he had RoP +2, 18 dex, str, and wis, then he would have 31.Unless theres a high point buy, I think 28 would be more realistic. That is still pretty crazy.
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Monks only add their monk level to their CMB, not CMD. I did forget they get to add their wisdom and the +1 ac bonus to CMD though. So I guess if he had RoP +2, 18 dex, str, and wis, then he would have 31.Unless theres a high point buy, I think 28 would be more realistic. That is still pretty crazy.What's the monks CMB/CMD? You said that a Girallon needed a natural 20 to win a grapple check. Girallon's CMB is +12, so 20 would be 32 (I know 20 is auto-success). 32-10-5-2 (Monk only adds his bab of 5 to CMD, improved grapple adds +2) = 15. So the monk has combined str and dex modifier's of 15? Assuming an even split, thats 24 str and 22 dex?Monks add their monk level instead of BAB to their CMB/CMD for combat maneuvers. So a 7th level monk with improved grapple has a 19 CMD out of the box. If he has a 18 dex and 18 str, dodge, and a ring of protection +2 that's a 30. Not out of the realm of possibility by any means, but he is clearly a very focused character.
Yeah, that's the problem--I made him lay out the math for me, b/c it seemed wholly broken--to have a grapple on a creature one size larger than you that can only be overcome by an insanely large roll, and it's become a one-trick pony that is clearly causing some yawning at the game table.
Here are some more creatures that 7th level guys can run into that the monk won't be excited about.
Babau CR 6(protective slime when touching him you can take 1d8 damage)
Mimic CR 4 (cannot be tripped and bang your stuck)
Dark Naga CR 8 (displacement, cannot be tripped scorching ray)
SWARMS! any kind the monk cannot hurt most of them
Snakes Beefed up (cannot be tripped)
Mummies CR 5 (I punch the mummy, crap I have mummy rot now)
Obviously, what we need to do here is nerf the overpowered Monk class.
And it's pretty hard to min-max the Monk given you need roughly 3 stats as high as you can get them with at least one stat not below 10.
I was more of questioning it because I'm working on a brutal pugilist barbarian grappler and wanted to know how to get it that high ;).
Which is a good idea... modify a monster to have 2 levels of barbarian with the brutal pugilist archetype. He gets an AoO even if the grappler has improved grapple. So then the monk adds the damage from this AoO as a penalty to his CMB. Also, the brutal pugilist gets a +2 circumstance bonus to his CMD if he hits with the AoO, as well as having bonus to his str if he was raging. I imagine there are already made monsters that have the ability to get AoOs on grapplers with improved grapple.
Also, while grappling, both grapplers have the grappled condition which gives a -4 penalty to dex, making it easier to reverse the grapple.
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I think the best solution is to talk to your players. If possible, you should first try to talk to the new players to see what they really think, how they feel. Maybe they can put up with it, or they have suggestions of their own on what might be fun.
Then, talk to the monk. This doesn't have to be confrontation - try to pitch the conversation so that you two are on the same side, trying to find a solution to the same problem, together. You might be able to get him to lay back a little bit; he may not even realize the effect he's having. Another angle is to try to beef the other characters so that they can keep up a little better.
Including monsters that really challenge the monk is great - but be sure that you don't equally disadvantage the rest of the party. Some monsters are just a pain in the butt for everyone to fight.
In the end, the game is about having fun - for everyone. If one person is peeing on everyone else's fun, something has to be done.
+1 to the pig.
Others have given ideas about alternate encounters, but this captures the heart of it. You look around here and there are advice sought threads on both sides: 1 character too strong; 1 character too weak; 1 group of all experienced players (single noob), one group of all noob players (single experienced player).
That all said, diversity is a good thing, and heterogeneous groups are good for learning. One solution is for him to consider playing an advisor role, "Grasshopper, strike like a snake and move like the wind!" Some strong players take on challenging roles in this situation, or optimize what is normally seen as being tough to optimize. If he thinks bards are tough to be effective, take on the challenge of an effective bard. That sort of thing.
Like he said, Monks only use Full Monk Level in place of BAB for CMB, not CMD.
There is a separate Feat which allows anybody to use Character Level in place of BAB for CMD.
(You probably don`t want to remind this player of that, or allow him to do so if he wants to)
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Besides all the good advice so far, think about things like miss chance. CMB are just as susceptable to miss chance as normal attacks, and make even 95% certain CMB checks actually have quite a bit of uncertainty (esp. w/ 50% miss chance). And Monks don`t really have any counters to it naturally.
Another idea: lure the Monk to fight what the BBEG away from the party. BBEG either turns out to be an illusion, or the real thing who teleports away, and then puts up a barrier blocking the monk in... where he now faces LOTS of enemies, who may be immune to some of his favorite tricks. Now the game is about how does the rest of the party deal with the BBEG while breaking down / getting around the barrier to SAVE the Monk.
Vertical (Climbing) and Aquatic enemies/battlefields can mix things up consideraby... Creatures without a Swim/Climb Speed CAN´T 5´ Step in those environs, and if the Enemy CAN... (The Monk can jump around as he wants, but that should always take a Move Action, meaning no Full Attack. If 6+ enemies can 5´step to Full Attack him each round, possibly with detrimental status effects on their attacks, he`s not looking so good anymore, and will be glad when the rest of the party can help out)
More Tiny Creatures can fit in a given space, meaning more are available to surround and attack (flanking) the Monk, and some of them still have 5´reach anyway (e.g. Pseudodragons). Since Bullrush can only target 1 opponent per Bullrush, and you can`t normally move into swuares whre enemy`s are, these can be good area-denial options vs. the Monk, e.g. a horde of creatures surrounding and protecting BBEG or Archers.
Also, for Humanoid opponents, besides miss chance effects, Barbarian should be well able to resist Monk CMBs (esp with STR surge), as well as Fighters especially with the same Improved Maneuver Feats themselves (and making sure to have all the Deflection, Dodge, etc AC bonuses which apply to CMD). A multiclass ´meleeist´ w 1 level of Sorceror with Familiar option can be receiving True Strikes every round via Familiar using UMD w/ wand (Wand of Barkskin can make normal AC very resistant vs. Stunning Fists). Dragon Disciples can have very high AC and CMD if you want them to, besides easy access to miss chance effects via spells (I prefer not taking more than 1 level of Sorceror or Bard to qualify, and take at least 4 Barbarian levels instead, gaining Rage Abilities). Opponents with BOTH Reach Weapons AND close in weapon options (Natural or Quickdraw Falchions/Greatswords/Falcatas, etc) make them a PAIN to deal with as well, especially enlarged...
Also, try considering more involving plot challenges that don`t allow them to be solved just by beating everything in combat. That instantly puts everybody on a more level playing field (or favors characters with social skills if that is appropriate to the challenge)
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Monks add their monk level instead of BAB to their CMB/CMD for combat maneuvers. So a 7th level monk with improved grapple has a 19 CMD out of the box. If he has a 18 dex and 18 str, dodge, and a ring of protection +2 that's a 30. Not out of the realm of possibility by any means, but he is clearly a very focused character.
Unless they changed it from my printing of the Core Rulebook, Monks only use their level as their BAB for CMB. They would still need to take the feat Defensive Combat Training to apply it to CMD.
Also, I believe that a ring of protection only applies to AC.
Is it possible that he is adding things that he shouldn't?
Edit: D'oh ninja'd about the CMD... ^_^
No, rings of protection apply to CMD as well, just as his Wisdom bonus does, and bonus from Dodge, Combat Expertise etc.
Basically, if it applies to your touch AC it applies to your CMD.
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Monks add their monk level instead of BAB to their CMB/CMD for combat maneuvers. So a 7th level monk with improved grapple has a 19 CMD out of the box. If he has a 18 dex and 18 str, dodge, and a ring of protection +2 that's a 30. Not out of the realm of possibility by any means, but he is clearly a very focused character.Unless they changed it from my printing of the Core Rulebook, Monks only use their level as their BAB for CMB. They would still need to take the feat Defensive Combat Training to apply it to CMD.
Also, I believe that a ring of protection only applies to AC.
Is it possible that he is adding things that he shouldn't?
Edit: D'oh ninja'd about the CMD... ^_^
No, like I said, his CMD is at 28, and he's built all of his stats and items toward the CMB/D grapple build. I never said he had a ring of protection. I think what bothers me is the monk class is able to get their class that ridiculously combat-maneuver overpowered, to the point where it takes a roll of 18 by a four-armed garillon to get out of a grapple, garillon being a monster that is built to grapple and rend. And yea, I have sat down and looked at his sheet, checked all the numbers, he's just made up his mind to play the most obnoxious character I have ever seen in a game. This wouldn't bother me if the rest of the group wasn't starting to fall asleep once the big bad became entangled. I think it's an issue of spotlight right now, no one else is getting any in combat, and I am feeling a little lost. Although now I feel I have some good advice on countering the obnoxiousness now.
Thanks also for the advice on miss chance, etc, Quandary. Good advice.
And just a note, of course this is only in combat. During the RP nights, everything rolls along fairly smoothly (but I don't dare introduce a tavern brawl, lol).
I appreciate all the advice, thank you all. I have a lot of adventure-reworking to do before Tuesday night!
Fight more than one monster at a time.
A simple solution that solves all problems without nerfing the Monk.
One more thing about the Familiars with Wands, using them only on their master isn`t the end all, if the enemy`s have a caster with Familiar, the Familiar can be zapping around buffing ALL the enemy melee allies. (and do this when you calculate the enemy has X rounds to pre-buff, maximizing that time)
One other thing: If the other players are inexperienced, I thing it`s very reasonably within the remit of the GM to discuss their characters with them, what works good, what doesn`t what could be better... Even without totally rebuilding their characters, they could find stronger builds going forwards and better focus their choice of new gear and their in combat actions as to make themselves more effective. Right now, the otehr players may be getting a good idea of what a well optimized monk looks like, but they may not have a good idea of how their own character`s class(es) could compete with that, but in slightly different ways.
At the least, if the characters` gear is not working as-is, why not throw in some gear that would be VERY well optimized for the other characters. Since the Monk is doing fine, he can be stuck re-selling treasure for 50% for a while (this depends on how your group divides treasure).
No, like I said, his CMD is at 28, and he's built all of his stats and items toward the CMB/D grapple build.
28 is really not that spectacular at that level. A fighter could easily have the same (+6 str +2 dex, dodge, +2 ring of protection +7 BAB). So the monk doesn't have the same BAB but has instead invested another feat into it. I don't think it's outrageous to expect that a grapple-focused character can grapple effectively.
As has been said a girallon has a +12 CMB so he reall only needs a 16 to grapple your monk friend. 25% chance. Girallon also has a 25 CMD. I'm guessing this monk has a CMB of around (7 level, 5 str, +2 feat, MAYBE +2 weapon) so he only has around a 60% chance of grappling it back.
So yeah, how's this for a nice, APL+2 encounter, with humans no less! 5th level human cleric with the Liberation domain who is therefore immune to being grappled for the first 5 times it is attempted every day. He's CR 4. 4 War3 crossbowmen with Deadly Aim and Weapon Focus (Light Crossbow) and masterwork xbows. And a couple Ftr2 guisarme fighters with combat reflexes, combat expertise, and imp trip. Put the xbowmen behind cover or on a ledge. Cleric casts prayer first round. If the party gets too spread out and he can take advantage of it he bursts to heal his allies, who protect him in turn. If the PCs decide to retreat they eat a few rounds of 1d8+3 xbow bolts.
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I had the same problem, but it was with a fighter who maxed out trip and grapple... Well they fought bad guy monks who had higher stats and decimated the PC and the other characters were able to use their "sticks" were able to fight them.
One thing you should do is increase the stats of monsters by 4 str and 2 dex to increase their CMB/CMD stats. Also look at what feats the monsters have. You can make one or two in a battle have Combat Manuever feats. When they fight the monk have them "gang" up.. Let the enemies Aid Another. I don't care how beefed up his CMB/CMD is when he has 2-5 montsers Grappling him to the ground the it increases by 2 per grappler... Don't be afraid to Min-Max enemies.. They should have some easy battles, but there should be battles that are tough for them.
The +2 weapon wouldn't factor into CMB for grappling, only for combat maneuvers that a weapon gets used with (disarm, sunder, etc).
Unless, say, your unarmed strikes are +2 like from an amulet of mighty fists.
Also how is getting another attack on someone useless. 6th level fighter with combat expertise, combat reflexes, improved and greater trip, and let's say weapon focus guisarme and power attack/cleave. Someone moves through his hexes, he gets a free trip attack with a +14 or so (+2 weapon), trips the dude, who provokes AoO BY falling from everyone who threatens him at the time. Then he tries to get up, provoking AoO again. A line of guisarme fighters is a pretty effective blockade unless you have really good acrobatics or mobility.
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Thanks to all yet again--so many good ideas, I think building my encounters is going to be a little more work, but I think the party will win in the end--they had a giant spider encounter that nearly took half of them out a few weeks ago, and they certainly had the most fun in a long time during that one. I think the problem is somewhat compounded by the large group (6-7 people every week), so if all I do is throw in a lot more monsters, the encounters start to resemble 4E snooze-fests (sorry for the jab). Cool mechanics are so much more interesting.
This helpful community is just another reason why I love Pathfinder!
Thanks again, I think there's a lot of helpful info above for building any number of fun scenarios.
Hey GMs.
I am running a campaign for a large group, many of whom have never played an RPG before. The single player who HAS played before is running a Monk, who is pretty much min-maxed to the hilt, and built to grapple and FoB trip trip trip trip (or stunning blow) everything I throw at the group.
Here's my problem. Because the group is new, some are complaining to me that the fights have become boring. This is mainly due to the fact that once the lower level mobs are gone, the monk (who has a ridiculously high CMB/CMD for level 7, but the math works out) just tends to trip/stun anything I send at them. Meaning they basically whittle away at a stunned creature EVERY single fight. Yawn.
If this was a group of like gamers, I would up the EL, but these guys would all die. As it stands, I already can't make them face any sort of single enemy, since anything just gets hogtied and coup-de-graced. I think some of this math is broken, it seems rather ridiculous that a girallon can't CMB out of a grapple from a little monk his own level without rolling a natural 20. Plus a Bodak, who can kill someone with a gaze attack, just ends up as another boring hog-tied humanoid, wtf?
I think part of the problem is that myself as a new pathfinder GM, I don't quite understand how to counter something like this. Monks pretty much ignore terrain, and with Ki points they can jump to the fu&%$&%g moon, so ledges are out of the question. One boss had Freedom of Movement, that went OK.
So I suppose I am at my wits end, I have lost interest in the campaign, but I like the gaming group, so I am going to try and rebuild my encounters to be monk-proof. Does anyone have any advice? Any creatures you know who might actually make these fights interesting again? I am at my wits end, I actually bought Mouseguard and Savage Worlds yesterday, lol. Any help or advice would be great.
If you post the build here we can break it down.
If not can we have an example of a fight(s) that monk owned.The monk should have a high CMD, but his CMB should not be too high. Of course I don't know what his starting stats are, so I am going off a 20 point buy.
What books is he using? In other words is he using 3.5 stuff?
Glad to be of assistance. Yeah one of the joys and challenges of being a good DM is making an encounter that will challenge the whole party in different ways. The best encounters aren't "ok you're level 10 this monster is cr 10 GO" it's building a scenario where they will have to make tactical decisions to defend against multiple opponents, with some story impetus behind the actual combat. I'm a fan of the crossbowmen/pikemen combo personally and have used it to great effect.
Monks add their monk level instead of BAB to their CMB/CMD for combat maneuvers. So a 7th level monk with improved grapple has a 19 CMD out of the box. If he has a 18 dex and 18 str, dodge, and a ring of protection +2 that's a 30. Not out of the realm of possibility by any means, but he is clearly a very focused character.Unless they changed it from my printing of the Core Rulebook, Monks only use their level as their BAB for CMB. They would still need to take the feat Defensive Combat Training to apply it to CMD.
Also, I believe that a ring of protection only applies to AC.
Is it possible that he is adding things that he shouldn't?
Edit: D'oh ninja'd about the CMD... ^_^
No, like I said, his CMD is at 28, and he's built all of his stats and items toward the CMB/D grapple build. I never said he had a ring of protection. I think what bothers me is the monk class is able to get their class that ridiculously combat-maneuver overpowered, to the point where it takes a roll of 18 by a four-armed garillon to get out of a grapple, garillon being a monster that is built to grapple and rend. And yea, I have sat down and looked at his sheet, checked all the numbers, he's just made up his mind to play the most obnoxious character I have ever seen in a game. This wouldn't bother me if the rest of the group wasn't starting to fall asleep once the big bad became entangled. I think it's an issue of spotlight right now, no one else is getting any in combat, and I am feeling a little lost. Although now I feel I have some good advice on countering the obnoxiousness now.
Thanks also for the advice on miss chance, etc, Quandary. Good advice.
And just a note, of course this is only in combat. During the RP nights, everything rolls along fairly smoothly (but I don't dare introduce a tavern brawl, lol).
I appreciate all the advice, thank you all. I have a lot of adventure-reworking to do before Tuesday night!
In order to grapple a monster or humanoid with reach(through size or a weapon) he has to make the acrobatics check to get close enough to attempt the manuever. As the monsters get bigger the checks get higher. If the opponent has a high CMB then tripping or grappling the monk would be fun for a change or you could just do HP damage.
I had the same problem, but it was with a fighter who maxed out trip and grapple... Well they fought bad guy monks who had higher stats and decimated the PC and the other characters were able to use their "sticks" were able to fight them.
One thing you should do is increase the stats of monsters by 4 str and 2 dex to increase their CMB/CMD stats. Also look at what feats the monsters have. You can make one or two in a battle have Combat Manuever feats. When they fight the monk have them "gang" up.. Let the enemies Aid Another. I don't care how beefed up his CMB/CMD is when he has 2-5 montsers Grappling him to the ground the it increases by 2 per grappler... Don't be afraid to Min-Max enemies.. They should have some easy battles, but there should be battles that are tough for them.
Changing feats and tactics is the easiest way to adjust things to counter players. +1
You know, all this sounds a lot like the build that my monk is going to have in a few levels (mine is still at level 4)... and I didn't even know about some of these bonuses that you can get to CMB and CMD from items *takes notes*
Don't worry, my Monk of the Sacred Mountain is going to be more focused upon being a triping tank than the grappel monster that you're describing XD
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If you post the build here we can break it down.
If not can we have an example of a fight(s) that monk owned.
The monk...
Well, here's a few examples. Eberron campaign, party comes across an emerald claw landing party, 2 in an air-skiff, 6 on the ground with some terrain thrown in.
The party lands and has an exchange with the EC, the monk runs, ki points a ridiculous jump up to the skiff, jumps between the boss and the mage (who was to be peppering the party with spells), and proceeds to FoB trip/stunning blow both of them, effectively taking the only two interesting folks in the combat out for the duration of the combat.
Another example, 6 dire apes and a garillon pack leader attacks the party on the edge of a monument with obstructing columns, 150ft in the air. Party worries about the dire apes (who charge and are trying to knock them from the ledge they are on), while the monk simply stunning fist attacks the garillon so it got to take a total action once. party burns down a bunch of low-level dire apes, then kills a stunned/tripped garillon.
The formula is usually "monk targets most interesting enemy and proceeds to stun/trip him or her until the rest of the party finishes up".
Lather rinse repeat, lol. Every encounter goes like that. If it's half as boring to play as it is to DM, I would have left this game by now as a player.
I think another option would be to throw 2 or even three of the big bads into every encounter, then yeah, he can wrap himself up in one, while the rest of the party proceeds to actually have interesting combat. But throwing two garillons at a party of 6 is pretty much a guaranteed TPK.
The problem is, if I load up the battles so the monk is off on his own wrapping himself around a monster, the encounters get bloated and take forever. And I am too inexperienced to have a feel for appropriate EC, it seems the suggested ECs in Pathfinder are a little weak, but that might also be a result of the minmaxmonk.
I think there's a lot of great suggestions in this thread, I think with these suggestions, I know the groups strategies well enough that I can start to harry them a little more effectively.
Yeah, that does sound like a problem. Out of curiosity - what does the rest of the party look like?
Those sound like awesome encounters, btw. ^__^
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Yeah, that does sound like a problem. Out of curiosity - what does the rest of the party look like?
Those sound like awesome encounters, btw. ^__^
We have a cleric, sorc, thief, fighter, paladin, and monk. I know =( I thought I was gonna get at least one of the party charged off the side or tore up pretty good by the 4 armed ape!
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I think the problem is somewhat compounded by the large group (6-7 people every week), so if all I do is throw in a lot more monsters, the encounters start to resemble 4E snooze-fests (sorry for the jab). Cool mechanics are so much more interesting.
Yeah, the 6-7 people bit makes for tough combat design without the heterogeneous character optimization element.
Well, here's a few examples. Eberron campaign, party comes across an emerald claw landing party, 2 in an air-skiff, 6 on the ground with some terrain thrown in.
The party lands and has an exchange with the EC, the monk runs, ki points a ridiculous jump up to the skiff, jumps between the boss and the mage (who was to be peppering the party with spells), and proceeds to FoB trip/stunning blow both of them, effectively taking the only two interesting folks in the combat out for the duration of the combat.
The jump action was a move action at the least. He has to target the mage or the boss guy. The boss guy should have had a high fort to complement the wizard. Now you may have rolled low, but in general the two baddies should have different weaknesses. You can only do one stunning blow per round. There was a feat in 3.5 called "rapid stunning" that allowed you to do several, and he may have that feat.
Did the wizard get into monk range unbuffed? If so have him buffed or at least the next bad guy buffed.What point did you use or did you roll for stats. I have never seen a monk dominate anything. Normally the stuns work until you get a beefy(high fort save, monster built for melee offense) then the stun fails most of the time due to the high fort saves.
How is he getting to the mage so easily? A 7th level mage can fly, and drop battlefield control spells. Summoning monsters, going invisible etc.
8th level Fighter-Human(anti grapple) 15 point buy
BAB 8
Str 14-->20(racial(2)+level(2) increase +2 enhancment) con 14 Dex 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 7
1 Weapon Focus(unarmed strike)
1 Wpn Spec(Same weapon)
1 Improved Unarmed Strike.
2 Improved Grapple
3 Power Attack
4 Cleave
5 Dodge
6 Greater grapple
7 Great Fortitude(honestly only here to counter stunning)
CMB=BAB(8)+STR(5)=13 or 18 if grappling. Grappling gets +5 because of the two feats and the weapon focus applies to the trip weapon
The fighters CMD is 25 or 30( dodge feat, and Ring of Protection +1)
Even with a 28 CMD the monk has 50% chance of being grappled.
PS: If the fighter's weapon training applies then his grapple goes to a 19 and the CMD goes to a 31.
PS2: Sorry for the sudden jump into the fighter semi-build. Sometimes I have too many thoughts at once.
We had the same prob in our campaign.
Monk was the go to fighter type, rest of us were buff bots or window dressing.
Then we met the vampires with greater invisibility. Can't stun what you can't see.
That was a fight.
~will
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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You can also use various debuffs against the monk to lower his chances. Ray of enfeeblement, bestow curse, prayer, dirge of doom baric performance (or any other effect that causes shaken, such as the intimidate skill, etc.) aura of dispair enchantment school power, etc. just off the top of my head.
EDIT: also, as has been mentioned, give the enemy lots of allies - if the monk is grappling one, then the rest can gang up on the monk who also has the grappled condition.
The party lands and has an exchange with the EC, the monk runs, ki points a ridiculous jump up to the skiff, jumps between the boss and the mage (who was to be peppering the party with spells), and proceeds to FoB trip/stunning blow both of them, effectively taking the only two interesting folks in the combat out for the duration of the combat.Another example, 6 dire apes and a garillon pack leader attacks the party on the edge of a monument with obstructing columns, 150ft in the air. Party worries about the dire apes (who charge and are trying to knock them from the ledge they are on), while the monk simply stunning fist attacks the garillon so it got to take a total action once. party burns down a bunch of low-level dire apes, then kills a stunned/tripped garillon.
...how?
Are you letting him abuse Stunning Fist? Stunning Fist stuns the opponent for a grand total of... one round. If he can kill them in one round, he doesn't need stunning fist.And I'm not seeing how he can put his stunning fist save above 18.
A level 7 Fighter with even low Con should be able to make that fairly close to 50% of the time.
And grappled creatures can still use natural attacks btw.
If they can't beat the grapple, don't grapple - attack.
After the Monk is made completely useless, he is going to be back with "The level 9 Sorcerer is killing everything in sight and I can't do anything about it because of Greater Invisibility and Fly!" Then you are all going to tell him to run monsters that make both the Monk AND the Sorcerer useless.
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Combine several suggestions. Use sentient, bow-wielding incorporeal spiders riding giant undead snakes.
Mark L. Chance | Spes Magna Games
If all the encounters were akin to what has been suggested then I would agree with the sentiment Cartigan, but as it is, it sounded more like the OP and his group are having the opposite issue...
I disagree on the grounds it sounds too fantastical. I feel the Monk and the DM are or just the DM is not familiar with the rules and the Monk player is getting away with way more than he should. Like you can't trip some one standing up using an AoO. Or that the Monk can use Stunning Fist 7 times a day. Or that Stunning Fist only causes a status effect for 1 round per use (as far as I can tell). Or that prone != helpless - unless you are using a bow, you can attack from the ground. Or that the opponent can also attack during a grapple.
There is seemingly impossible about a 7th level Monk preventing a Girallon from taking more than one action an entire combat.
Except the insane jumping. I looked that up - you can get a +50 something using 2 ki points.
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If all the encounters were akin to what has been suggested then I would agree with the sentiment Cartigan, but as it is, it sounded more like the OP and his group are having the opposite issue...I disagree on the grounds it sounds too fantastical. I feel the Monk and the DM are or just the DM is not familiar with the rules and the Monk player is getting away with way more than he should. Like you can't trip some one standing up using an AoO. Or that the Monk can use Stunning Fist 7 times a day. Or that Stunning Fist only causes a status effect for 1 round per use (as far as I can tell). Or that prone != helpless - unless you are using a bow, you can attack from the ground. Or that the opponent can also attack during a grapple.
There is seemingly impossible about a 7th level Monk preventing a Girallon from taking more than one action an entire combat.
Except the insane jumping. I looked that up - you can get a +50 something using 2 ki points.
Agree. My first question when I saw the OP's description of these encounters was "You do know that stunning fist only lasts one round, right?"
My second is "You do know that trip locking doesn't work in Pathfinder because you can't trip someone with the AoO you get when they stand from prone, right?"
The OP's description seems to indicate the oppponents go down and then they never get back up. That shouldn't be the case.
If the issue is grappling, and not stunning/trip-locking, then yes it is possible to build a monk with a really high CMB/CMD. HOWEVER, I have a monk cohort in the Rise of The Runelords campaign I'm playing in who was built to be a grapplebot and I've found that even though he is focused on grappling it is not very effective against all the size Large/size Huge opponents we face. The big creature's combo of super high Strength and BAB bonus makes it tough to lock them up.
Maybe you are simply throwing too many humanoids at them. I would be surpised if this monk could be so effective against some of the more brutish monsters out there. If you're running a campaign where the PCs mostly face off with humanoids with class levels, then you're probably going to have this problem... my monk cohort REJOICES when he sees a size Medium opponent now, because he knows it's much easier to pick on someone his own size. ;-)
Defintely, making sure all opponents get AoO`s against Monk movement provocation is pretty crucial.
The example of super-jumping up to a flying skiff to attack the enemies there made me wonder...
If the Monk is jumping up and over the edge of the skiff to a square where he can stand (and attack potentially both opponents), it seems highly likely that he needed to move through a threatened square, or more accurately the threatened CUBES. If the opponents were standing on the edge squares of the skiff, the Monk needs to move thru the threatened cubes either directly from below, or arcing above (where he provokes from moving thru the cubes ABOVE the enemies). If arcing above, he COULD get off attacks before the AoO`s (by attacking from above), but he then `falls` to the square below, which still provokes. Only if they were not on the edge squares (likely w/o line of sight to battle below), and were conviently positioned to allow the monk to move into one square where he can threaten both of them from the same square, could the Monk avoid an AoO (automatically, without Tumble) and still attack both.
Besides that the description made it sound like the Monk IMMEDIATELY was Full Attacking them with FoB (after more than 5´ of movement, the Monk should only be doing Standard Actions... which COULD include Cleave, but not FoB). I just don`t see how the Monk could take out both a Caster and Fighter type without them doing something about it. Assuming he Cleaved them (not certain, it seems like something the OP would mention if true... Monks don`t necessarily have the extra Feats for Cleave, especially if focusing on Maneuvers), he POSSIBLY could have Stunning Fist`ed the Caster (how does he know which is which?) and then either melee attacked (not decisive) or Tripped the Fighter.
Tripped doesn`t really matter much since said Fighter can still Full Attack if he want`s, just with -2 and can`t 5`step. Most STR based (with decent DEX) Fighters will have CMD that are not a sure thing to beat... ASSUMING the Caster is stunned, the Fighter can: Full Attack the Monk, Vital Strike the Monk (esp. if said Fighter can beat 50 dmg for Massive Damage), Bull Rush the Monk off the edge (unfortunately not benefitting from Caster`s Flanking, but could benefit from higher ground if skiff is tilted...), or just grab the stunned Caster and JUMP DOWN (this is Eberron, so they should have Feather Fall tokens) which provokes AoO but that will not really be decisive ultimately (I would have said Fighter draw Reach Weapon while floating down, to get extra AoO if the Monk follows). If not Tripped, the Fighter can move into the Caster`s square and provide them cover. If said Fighter was a Barbarian, Knockback seems a fairly good move, and with weapon bonuses and Strength Surge, probably likely to succeed even against the Monk`s CMD.