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It appears they do, at least RAW. My only concern is that both archetypes modify the smite evil ability the same way, but the hospitalier ability says it functions as the paladin ability of the same name, but does not say it replaces it. The sacred servant says it replaces it. They both grant the exact same weakened smite evil capability, and all their other replacements fit together nicely. Were these two paladin archetypes intended to stack?
From the book:
`A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR ALTER the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.` (caps lock mine)
So no, they don`t stack. One replaces Smite, the other alters it, so they can`t both be used.
You might be able to talk your DM (or, if you are DM, considering it) into letting them stack, but you'd be looking at getting you second smite around, oh, level 10, and a third at level 19, and that's it. Stacking the penalties (level increments increased by 3).
You might be able to talk your DM (or, if you are DM, considering it) into letting them stack, but you'd be looking at getting you second smite around, oh, level 10, and a third at level 19, and that's it. Stacking the penalties (level increments increased by 3).
That sounds like a fair way to play it if your DM lets you.
I agree with the above.
I have to pose a related question: Why would you make a hospitaler?
To me their channel positive energy seem worse than the normal paladin. Well, yes they get additional uses, when you combine lay on hands+channel energy, but they are making the channels at -3 levels.
From the book:
`A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR ALTER the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.` (caps lock mine)So no, they don`t stack. One replaces Smite, the other alters it, so they can`t both be used.
Wow! I didn't realize you could take 2 (or more) archetypes. So if both archetypes alter the same base ability you choose which alternate feature you use? The possibilities boggle the mind...
Does the base class count as an archetype itself? If yes you could pick and choose single alternate class features from an archetype...
From the book:
`A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace OR ALTER the same class feature from the core class as another alternate class feature.` (caps lock mine)So no, they don`t stack. One replaces Smite, the other alters it, so they can`t both be used.
Wow! I didn't realize you could take 2 (or more) archetypes. So if both archetypes alter the same base ability you choose which alternate feature you use? The possibilities boggle the mind...
Does the base class count as an archetype itself? If yes you could pick and choose single alternate class features from an archetype...
You can't take two archetypes that alter or replace the same class feature, which is stated in the above quote.
You can only take two archetypes that replaces or alters different class features (perhaps more, but I am unaware of any legal combinations).
I agree with the above.
I have to pose a related question: Why would you make a hospitaler?
To me their channel positive energy seem worse than the normal paladin. Well, yes they get additional uses, when you combine lay on hands+channel energy, but they are making the channels at -3 levels.
-3 levels just means they're one die lower, and it advances a level later. So instead of 10d6 healing, you do 8d6 or 9d6, which is a fairly minor drop (7 or 3.5 healing per target on average) in exchange for not burning up charges of your lay on hands.
A normal paladin (of level 2*X) can choose to heal one target for Xd6 damage for one use of LoH or heal a group for Xd6 for two uses. They have X+Cha uses per day.
A hospitalier (of level 2*X) can choose to heal one target for Xd6 damage X+Cha times per day AND heal a group for (X-1.5)d6 3+Cha times per day.
Assuming a 10th level paladin with a 20 charisma (+5 mod) and a 4 person party, a normal paladin has 10 uses of lay on hands, for 5d6 per use, and can spend two of those uses (10d6 worth) for an area heal that'd heal for 20d6 (5d6 each to 4 people). This lets them heal between 50d6 and 100d6 damage per day (depending on how they spend their uses). A hospitalier under the same circumstances would have 10 uses of lay on hands (5d6 per use) AND 8 uses of channel for 16d6 (4d6 each to 4 people). This lets them heal 178d6 per day (78d6 more healing, minimum).
At 11th level, lay on hands goes up to 6d6 but the hospitalier's channel is still 4d6. This bumps the base paladin to 60-120d6, while the hospitalier goes up to 188d6 (68d6 more healing, minimum). If the number of people in the party is higher, the hospitalier gets even more of an advantage, and scales much better with charisma (gain one use of LoH AND one channel per 2 points of charisma, instead of one use of LoH OR half a use of channel).
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My DM and I have a standing agreement that Hospitaler and Sacred Servant stack because they modify the ability in the exact same way, making it basically the same thing. Yeah, it's houseruled as written, but it really doesn't make a difference as far as power is concerned. However, this is also mostly because the group doesn't have a dedicated healer, and being able to increase my Channel Positive Energy healing with my Divine Bond has helped me become the group "Healer", at least when I'm not blowing stuff up with fire.
-3 levels just means they're one die lower, and it advances a level later. So instead of 10d6 healing, you do 8d6 or 9d6, which is a fairly minor drop (7 or 3.5 healing per target on average) in exchange for not burning up charges of your lay on hands.A normal paladin (of level 2*X) can choose to heal one target for Xd6 damage for one use of LoH or heal a group for Xd6 for two uses. They have X+Cha uses per day.
A hospitalier (of level 2*X) can choose to heal one target for Xd6 damage X+Cha times per day AND heal a group for (X-1.5)d6 3+Cha times per day.Assuming a 10th level paladin with a 20 charisma (+5 mod) and a 4 person party, a normal paladin has 10 uses of lay on hands, for 5d6 per use, and can spend two of those uses (10d6 worth) for an area heal that'd heal for 20d6 (5d6 each to 4 people). This lets them heal between 50d6 and 100d6 damage per day (depending on how they spend their uses). A hospitalier under the same circumstances would have 10 uses of lay on hands (5d6 per use) AND 8 uses of channel for 16d6 (4d6 each to 4 people). This lets them heal 178d6 per day (78d6 more healing, minimum).
At 11th level, lay on hands goes up to 6d6 but the hospitalier's channel is still 4d6. This bumps the base paladin to 60-120d6, while the hospitalier goes up to 188d6 (68d6 more healing, minimum). If the number of people in the party is higher, the hospitalier gets even more of an advantage, and scales much better with charisma (gain one use of LoH AND one channel per 2 points of charisma, instead of one use of LoH OR half a use of channel).
Well I won't disagree that the Hospitaler get an overall larger healing capacity, but that isn't the only concern. At such large numbers at lvls 10 and 11, you should in most instances have enough healing for a days adventuring.
The Hospitaler gets more healing, and becomes quite a lot better in post-combat healing, which is fitting for the archetype, but the standard paladin (and the sacred servant especially) is better at healing during combat, or using channeling offensively, where those extra dice becomes important in determining whether healing is a useful course of action or not.The sacred servant at level 11 can make a channel positive energy for 11d6 (with a phylactery of positive channeling), it becomes quite nice for harming undeads, and most likely the best choice if healing is needed.
The Hospitaler with the same item, can channel for 6d6, which is most likely going to be a waste of time.
I am not saying that the Hospitaler is bad (since you don't give up that much), but it just puts me off that the Healing Paladin, which it seems to be, is not really useful for healing in combat. Between encounters his healing rocks, but that only makes him save the group some coins on wands of CLW.
Well I won't disagree that the Hospitaler get an overall larger healing capacity, but that isn't the only concern. At such large numbers at lvls 10 and 11, you should in most instances have enough healing for a days adventuring.
The Hospitaler gets more healing, and becomes quite a lot better in post-combat healing, which is fitting for the archetype, but the standard paladin (and the sacred servant especially) is better at healing during combat, or using channeling offensively, where those extra dice becomes important in determining whether healing is a useful course of action or not.
The sacred servant at level 11 can make a channel positive energy for 11d6 (with a phylactery of positive channeling), it becomes quite nice for harming undeads, and most likely the best choice if healing is needed.
The Hospitaler with the same item, can channel for 6d6, which is most likely going to be a waste of time.I am not saying that the Hospitaler is bad (since you don't give up that much), but it just puts me off that the Healing Paladin, which it seems to be, is not really useful for healing in combat. Between encounters his healing rocks, but that only makes him save the group some coins on wands of CLW.
But the Sacred Servant can only do their 11d6 channel 5+(half cha) times per day, and then they're done, and it has to be done within one of two 11 minute blocks after wasting a standard action. And they're less useful in combat than a standard paladin, except against undead, because they give up the benefits of divine bond as well. Not to mention that the hospitalier still has full-strength lay on hands, which aren't consumed in doing an AoE heal. I'm not saying the Sacred Servant is bad - but it makes perfect sense to me to have one option of "I'm an amazing healer who can heal all day long" and one of "I've got a firehose of holy power from heaven, but I burn out quickly."
"My DM and I have a standing agreement that Hospitaler and Sacred Servant stack because they modify the ability in the exact same way, making it basically the same thing. Yeah, it's houseruled as written, but it really doesn't make a difference as far as power is concerned."
By all means do it how you like, but the above statement is not accurate. They both modify the same ability in the same way, but it is a reduction of power, in exchange for the other advantages of the archetypes.. so if you allow them to stack, you are getting the advantages of one of the archetypes without the drawback, since you already paid that drawback for other advantages...
.. its like saying "this chocolate bar costs a dollar, but this different chocolate bar also costs the exact same, so I will just pay and dollar and take both"
:P
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By all means do it how you like, but the above statement is not accurate. They both modify the same ability in the same way, but it is a reduction of power, in exchange for the other advantages of the archetypes.. so if you allow them to stack, you are getting the advantages of one of the archetypes without the drawback, since you already paid that drawback for other advantages..... its like saying "this chocolate bar costs a dollar, but this different chocolate bar also costs the exact same, so I will just pay and dollar and take both"
:P
That would be true if I could use Channel Positive Energy AND cast a spell on the same turn. As it stands, I can't.
It's more like... "This candy bar has peanuts cooked into the chocolate and caramel, and this one has peanuts coating the chocolate and pretzels, so I get peanuts either way. But I hate peanuts. Peanuts SUCK! So can I have a peanut/caramel/pretzel candy bar?"
But even then it's not totally accurate. Also:
Yeah, it's houseruled as written
Edit*: Incidentally, the lack of increased Smite Evils has already become more of a detriment in-game than the channeling and spellcasting have made up for >_>, which really sucks because I get to add it to my spell damage, too.
Edit**: Oh, and don't forget, you're also FORCED to get the Divine Bond class feature. That means NO rockin' animal companion for damage, and NO weapon enhancements. Trust me, I know that this combo isn't unbalanced because I've felt the effects FIRST HAND XD