If a Wizard/Rogue is stealthed and wants to use a ray (with a V component) to sneak attack will it work without being silenced (silent spell feat)?
In other words:
Would the fact that they have to talk ("in a strong voice") negate their stealth and make there target aware of them (ie giving the target back his DEX)?
OR
Would it simply give the target a new perception check againts the wizard/Rogue? This leads to additional questions like, shouldn't the target get a big bonus to his perception? (I mention this as nothing in the rules actually supports this)
I am really looking for rule supported answers.
If a Wizard/Rogue is stealthed and wants to use a ray (with a V component) to sneak attack will it work without being silenced (silent spell feat)?
In other words:
Would the fact that they have to talk ("in a strong voice") negate their stealth and make there target aware of them (ie giving the target back his DEX)?OR
Would it simply give the target a new perception check againts the wizard/Rogue? This leads to additional questions like, shouldn't the target get a big bonus to his perception? (I mention this as nothing in the rules actually supports this)
I am really looking for rule supported answers.
You can speak in a strong voice and still have it be quiet. Strong means you simply can't falter or stutter or what have you (such as when a deaf person tries to speak). A strong whisper is still a whisper, for example.
That being said, yes, I think nearby targets should still get Perception checks to hear you casting your verbal spell.
Perception check, modified as normal.
I would set the base DC at 5, between "hear the details of a conversation" and "hear the sound of a person walking".
Sneak attacks, being limited to 30' range have a mitigating effect on sneak-attack/spell effectiveness. However, a clever player could use other modifiers, such as background noise to their advantage.
But, at the end of the day, if you're a Wiz/Rog, you need to consider getting Silent Spell. If this feat was not for you, then who was it for?
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We are letting Sneak Spells now? Even before your question, I'd ask if you could sneak attack a spell. A spell isn't an "Attack" according to chart 8-2.
Would you give a Rog/Wiz a d6 bonus to a magic missle just for going first in the opening combat round while the enemy is flat-footed? Seems like an abuse of the rogue skill.
If you do allow it, then Evil Lincoln's idea works and just adjust for the enviroment.
Maybe even take it one step furthur and conside the spell a Snipe attack while stealthed.
Any time you roll to hit and deal damage, even energy damage; and your target is flat-footed, or you flank (with a melee touch attack like Chill Touch) you apply sneak attack damage.
No for Magic Missile because there's no attack roll.
Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium) is great, just great for this.
We are letting Sneak Spells now? Even before your question, I'd ask if you could sneak attack a spell. A spell isn't an "Attack" according to chart 8-2.
Would you give a Rog/Wiz a d6 bonus to a magic missle just for going first in the opening combat round while the enemy is flat-footed? Seems like an abuse of the rogue skill.
If you do allow it, then Evil Lincoln's idea works and just adjust for the enviroment.
Maybe even take it one step furthur and conside the spell a Snipe attack while stealthed.
Arcane tricksters can add sneak attack to the damage dice of their spells.
The question is very pertinent within the rules.
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Normally, you can sneak attack with spells that have attack rolls and deal damage.
Magic missile doesn't have an attack roll, so no sneak attack on it.
The arcane trickster prestige class capstone ability allows sneak attack damage with all spells, such as fireball and magic missile, instead of just the previous.
Note that spells that normally qualify have you make either a ranged touch attack, or a melee touch attack, to deal damage with the spell. Both of which are attack types.
Also, spell crits = awesome :D
That's a level 10 Arcane Trickster ability...]Arcane tricksters can add sneak attack to the damage dice of their spells.
The question is very pertinent within the rules.
Yeh, that's area effect spells, like fireball (which don't require an attack roll).
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Well, let's open this up a bit.
Stealth isn't just hiding. It's hiding and moving silently. Speaking is, obviously, sound.
Casting a spell with a verbal requirement creates sound.
So I would say as a verbal requirement, you're speaking at least at a whisper.
Perception has "Hear the details of a whispered conversation as a dc 15 perception check."
For a stealthed character, once he started casting with a verbal component, I'd drop the dc down to 15 +1/10 feet away from target. Since sneak attacks are 30ft or less, that'd knock the dc up to 18 at maximum range.
If combat has already begun, I'd also apply +2 for unfavorable conditions for the sounds of fighting.
Characters that would roll to detect the casting hiding rogue would roll a perception check. Those that rolled higher than the lower of either the stealth roll or the flat dc would then spot *or hear* the hiding character.
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A weapon that is magical is always a magical weapon -- even if you don't use it right.
Otherwise being non-proficient(aka unable to use it right) would mean that you also don't get the magic bonuses (since you can't use it right since you don't know how to).
so a +3 bow acts as a +3 club? that seems wrong.
I don't know if you'd need to hear 'the details' of a whispered conversation. Just hear that someone *is* whispering. Same as someone walking IMO. I'd say DC 10. Agreed on the +2 for unfavourable conditions, and +3 at 30 ft. away, makes it 15 IMO.
But you add that 15 to their Stealth check. And of course add 20 if they're invisible.
As long as the target was not aware of you when you started casting the spell, it should be a sneak attack IMO. My rule of thumb for judging sneak attacks is "would it be a sneak attack if you used it to start combat". If you were outside of combat, hidden, and flung a spell at someone as a surprise round, it would be a sneak attack. Therefore, casting a (standard action or less) spell while hidden is a sneak attack, silent or not.
I use the same logic with charging - a charge up to your speed can be a sneak attack, because it's possible during a surprise round, but a charge longer than that cannot.
This is just how I run things based on what I find logical, of course. I'm no expert on the RAW.
so a +3 bow acts as a +3 club? that seems wrong.A weapon that is magical is always a magical weapon -- even if you don't use it right.
Otherwise being non-proficient(aka unable to use it right) would mean that you also don't get the magic bonuses (since you can't use it right since you don't know how to).
I'm curious to know, WHY does that seem wrong? It strikes me as being perfectly reasonable, even expected.
As long as the target was not aware of you when you started casting the spell, it should be a sneak attack IMO. My rule of thumb for judging sneak attacks is "would it be a sneak attack if you used it to start combat". If you were outside of combat, hidden, and flung a spell at someone as a surprise round, it would be a sneak attack. Therefore, casting a (standard action or less) spell while hidden is a sneak attack, silent or not.
I use the same logic with charging - a charge up to your speed can be a sneak attack, because it's possible during a surprise round, but a charge longer than that cannot.
This is just how I run things based on what I find logical, of course. I'm no expert on the RAW.
Agreed. If they're flat-footed (haven't acted yet) when the spell goes off, then the conditions for sneak attack are met.
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I don't know if you'd need to hear 'the details' of a whispered conversation. Just hear that someone *is* whispering. Same as someone walking IMO. I'd say DC 10. Agreed on the +2 for unfavourable conditions, and +3 at 30 ft. away, makes it 15 IMO.
But you add that 15 to their Stealth check. And of course add 20 if they're invisible.
Well, perception allows you to check stealth against perception as opposed rolls. However, intentionally making noise such as whispering verbal components doesn't quite factor in to hiding or moving silently. Speaking and moving silently doesn't quite fit together. I could see reducing the base dc to 10, but I wouldn't stack it onto the stealth check. Otherwise, you're negating silent spell.
Though I could see rolling the whispered conversation check first, voiding stealth if the enemy succeeds, or just providing a bonus to the perception roll if the check fails.
The other point of view here is that if you're intentionally talking, then you're negating your stealth by intentionally making noise. But I'd rather still give the stealther a chance, even at a penalty.
Good point.
But surely, you can whisper stealthily?
I reckon you're right with "Though I could see rolling the whispered conversation check first, voiding stealth if the enemy succeeds, or just providing a bonus to the perception roll if the check fails".
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I'm curious to know, WHY does that seem wrong? It strikes me as being perfectly reasonable, even expected.so a +3 bow acts as a +3 club? that seems wrong.A weapon that is magical is always a magical weapon -- even if you don't use it right.
Otherwise being non-proficient(aka unable to use it right) would mean that you also don't get the magic bonuses (since you can't use it right since you don't know how to).
same reason the 2 sides of a quarter staff has to be enchanted seperately, even tho its only 1 piece of wood. a bow is enchanted to pass the powers to the arrows its firing, not for melee use
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While you are talking about whispering, the V component as the OP mentioned requires a 'strong voice', I would hardly interpret that to be possible while whispering.
I think it comes down to the fact that the enemy is going to hear you. It just matters if it is fast enough to react and gain their DEX Bonus.
I think it would be safe to say for Full Round cast time Spells with an active Verbal component wouldn't get your sneak in.
Who says a Rogue can't make a battle cry while coming out of Stealth to stab a vital spot?
If the monster was unaware of the Stealth PC altogether I would give them the spell + the sneak and be done with it.
While you are talking about whispering, the V component as the OP mentioned requires a 'strong voice', I would hardly interpret that to be possible while whispering.
Good pick up.
I think it comes down to the fact that the enemy is going to hear you. It just matters if it is fast enough to react and gain their DEX Bonus.
I think it would be safe to say for Full Round cast time Spells with an active Verbal component wouldn't get your sneak in.
Who says a Rogue can't make a battle cry while coming out of Stealth to stab a vital spot?
If the monster was unaware of the Stealth PC altogether I would give them the spell + the sneak and be done with it.
As long as they're flat-footed in regards to the rogue/wizard.
Shocking Grasp: Yes, electricity.
Ray of Enfeeblement: No sneak attack. Note that it's a Str penalty, not damage.
Try Chill Touch for that.
And let's not forget:
Enervation -> extra negative energy damage (NOT extra negative leves, those are for Criticals only).
At least, this was the case for 3.x (I believe this has not changed in Pathfinder).
You can find the full 3.5 essay here.
"Spells as Sneak Attacks
Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.
Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).
A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.
If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).
With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack."
To stay on task, the debate is not about if you can sneak attack with a spell, its about weather talking "in a strong voice" while stealth negates stealth.
I also interpret speaking in a strong voice as speaking at least in normal conversation level volume, not whispering (again other wise this negates the need for silent spell, or at least severly reduces its value).
I also agree if used to open combat, against unaware targets, then surprise rules take place. If the rogue was within 30' they could use there free standard action to make a sneak attack (ranged or otherwise). After all if a wizard can get off a spell then why couldn't the mage/rogue.
I think all that said, the question is very much answered. So long as the target is unaware of the rogue (or flat-footed from some other condition) he would be able to cast a spell (standard action casting time only) (at normal volume a.k.a. strong voice) and have it be a sneak attack. However, at that point I would also say that the rogue is no longer stealthed, the target is observing them (sight and/or sound), so all rules for re-stealthing would apply.
If a rogue wanted to snipe with a spell, I would also probably increase the penalty to maintain the obsured location as in most cases talking is louder than a whirling dagger, bow string, or crossbow (all which can be properly silenced and still function). I would most likely increase the penalty by -8 to -10 depending on distance.
Final note, someone mentioned spells are not attacks, this is not true. Page 208 PRPG, Special Spell Effects - Attacks. "All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks."
The rogue would still be able to sneak attack with a spell due to flanking, right?
Yes
Can you use a ranged touch attack spell against a target you're in melee with? Granted, he'd provoke AoO's from everyone around him...
Yes
To the original question, what if the rogue was using Greater Invisibility? Would that change anything? Someone in another thread said the target would be aware of the rogue, but not know where he was.
Knowing where an invisible creature is all about perception. If an invisible creature does something that alerts a target to their presence they still need to make a perception check to know where they are. I would say unless they pass that perception the target may still end up with a frozen spleen. (page 197 PRPG, Ignoring Concealment)
The simplest answer is to rule this as sniping (under the stealth skill).
and remember K.I.S.S (Keep It Simple Stupid)