Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a def lection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus). An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect. An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although def lection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight. An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn’t wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to its melee attacks, ranged attacks, and CMB. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.
So that is the Incorporeal write up from the Bestiary
What I want to know is if I Channel Positive Energy Does the Incorporeal Undead take half damage then save for half of that? Or does he save to take half the full damage
If you channel energy, the incorporeal undead takes full damage. It then saves for 1/2. Otherwise, why bother trying to use the ability at all against them? And it'd be pretty silly to give clerics this ability and then make sure it's ineffective against a substantial portion of the creatures it's supposed to affect....
If you channel energy, the incorporeal undead takes full damage. It then saves for 1/2. Otherwise, why bother trying to use the ability at all against them? And it'd be pretty silly to give clerics this ability and then make sure it's ineffective against a substantial portion of the creatures it's supposed to affect....
Thats what I was saying during the game but the GM saw it differntly
Shadows had become Gods
If you channel energy, the incorporeal undead takes full damage. It then saves for 1/2. Otherwise, why bother trying to use the ability at all against them? And it'd be pretty silly to give clerics this ability and then make sure it's ineffective against a substantial portion of the creatures it's supposed to affect....Thats what I was saying during the game but the GM saw it differntly
Shadows had become Gods
That seems to be going around lately....
If you channel energy, the incorporeal undead takes full damage. It then saves for 1/2. Otherwise, why bother trying to use the ability at all against them? And it'd be pretty silly to give clerics this ability and then make sure it's ineffective against a substantial portion of the creatures it's supposed to affect....Thats what I was saying during the game but the GM saw it differntly
Shadows had become Gods
I am pretty sure there was an errata on the incorporal thingy somewhere that said they took full damage from channeling.
That seems to be going around lately....If you channel energy, the incorporeal undead takes full damage. It then saves for 1/2. Otherwise, why bother trying to use the ability at all against them? And it'd be pretty silly to give clerics this ability and then make sure it's ineffective against a substantial portion of the creatures it's supposed to affect....Thats what I was saying during the game but the GM saw it differntly
Shadows had become Gods
+1
No, +100
That is the winner of the Best Comment of the Week!
Actually, I'm pretty sure from RAW that they take half then save for half. Without quoted errata that's how I will continue to run it.
Edit: Nevermind. Found it myself. They take full damage from channeling.
Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy).
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Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy).
Edit: ninj'd by knightofstyx's edit. :P
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Jason Bulmahn, lead designer, already answered this question in this thread.
To repeat what he said:
"As for this particular issue, there is nothing in the rules exempting channel energy from being reduced by the incorporeal UMR (universal monster rule). Using the rules as written, this means that it is reduced."
Crystal clear. RAW says that Channel Energy does half damage to incorporeal undead.
But then he says this:
"That said.. it probably should not be, but that is a matter I will take up when we get to errata for that book."
And now we get to the truth of it:
In the PathfinderBestiaryErrata1_0.pdf (you can find this in your Downloads section), it says:
Page 301
In the Incorporeal section, in the first paragraph, add
“(except for channel energy)” to the end of the fourth
sentence."
And now that's crystal clear.
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Resurrecting the thread to point out that while the PRD reflects the errata, the "(except for channel energy)" note has dropped out of the errata from 1st to 3rd printing. Also, the latest version of the Bestiary PDF I just downloaded has omitted the parenthetical and gone back to the 1st printing text.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical
body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures,
magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons,
and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It
is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit
by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from
a corporeal source. Although it is not a magical attack, holy
water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and
effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance
of affecting an incorporeal creature (except for channel
energy). Force spells and effects, such as from a magic
missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
Incorporeal (Ex) An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
So are we to trust the PRD or the latest printing of the Bestiary?
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PRD Still says no half damage for channel. No half damage is what makes sense. If they left it out of a print/PDF version, it was probably some copy editors error.
The text differs between the Incorporeal definition under the Bestiary 1 section of the PRD (which does say channel damage is not halved) and the Incorporeal definition under the Bestiary 2 and Bestiary 3 sections of the PRD (which both indicate channel is not exempt from half damage).
Unfortunately, the PRD seems to be set up as a reference of OGC for each book rather than a centralised rules reference (which would only have 1 definition of incorporeal).
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Ah, I see the difference between the two now ( it took me a while). To simplify everything and remove any further debate, perhaps any comment regarding channel energy should be put into the last sentence, which is an exception clause. Perhaps it should read:
"Force spells and effects, such as magic missile, as well as channel energy affect incorporeal creatures normally." then you can remove any parenthetical notation to channel energy in all versions.
There is more unclear about incorporeals.
1) Does everything that deals damage to undead via positive energy do full damage or is channel the exception?
I'm thinking about disrupt undead and cure light wounds. Thy are spells, so they should deal half damage. But wouldn't it make sense, that they deal full damage light channel and holy water?
2) If you have a shield (armor version) that has ghost touch on it but isn't magic, can you bash incorporeal undead with it? I'm thinking about a paladin with oath against undead who treats first his armor, later his shield, too as ghost touch.
3) Do undead bane weapons deal full or half damage vs incorporeal undead? Or is the normal damage half and the bana damage full?
4) Can a ghost wielding a ghost touch weapon or wearing a ghost touch armor still pass solid walls?
5) If you want to sunder a ghost touch weapon wielded by a ghost, do you have a miss chance (like when hitting a ghost?)
6) If you cast a wall of stone whith ectoplasmic spell, do you create a permanent wall made of stone that is impassable for incorporeal creatures?
I think if I take my time I'll come up with more questions.
1) Does everything that deals damage to undead via positive energy do full damage or is channel the exception?
Channel is the exception, I think.
2) If you have a shield (armor version) that has ghost touch on it but isn't magic, can you bash incorporeal undead with it? I'm thinking about a paladin with oath against undead who treats first his armor, later his shield, too as ghost touch.
The Ghost Touch Aura (Su) specifies the ghost touch armor property. This is different from the Ghost Touch weapon property. Despite it being confusing, and not really making a lot of sense, it would not let you bash ghosts, just like ghost touch armor would not let you use armor spikes against them.
3) Do undead bane weapons deal full or half damage vs incorporeal undead? Or is the normal damage half and the bana damage full?
Bane increases the enhancement bonus and adds damage. It does not function as Ghost Touch, so the ghost would still take half damage from an undead bane weapon.
4) Can a ghost wielding a ghost touch weapon or wearing a ghost touch armor still pass solid walls?
Armor: "Incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects."
Weapons lack this additional text, so it's up to interpretation if "a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal" would allow it to pass through objects.
5) If you want to sunder a ghost touch weapon wielded by a ghost, do you have a miss chance (like when hitting a ghost?)
What miss chance? Are you thinking of the 3.5 version of incorporeal which had a miss chance, instead of pathfinder incorporeal which is half damage?
6) If you cast a wall of stone whith ectoplasmic spell, do you create a permanent wall made of stone that is impassable for incorporeal creatures?
I don't think that's the intent of Ectoplasmic Spell, though it's a cool idea, if it fails the reflex save.
Thanks for the answers.
to 2) I had something in mind that there is one kind of shield attack (slam/bash) with which you can use your shield enhancement bonus for your attack. That's why I wondered what happens when you do that with a unmagic ghiost touch shield.
to 4) I only read the ghost touch weapon enchentment
to 5) I really thought that incorporeal creatures had concealment in addition to taking half damage.
But rereading it that doesn't seem to be the case.
to 6) I didn't want to trap a ghost, I thought about building a house (or room) they can't ener.
2nd printing of Bestiary 2 was just released, and its Incorporeal entry hasn't changed from the 1st printing, leaving Bestiary 1 as the only PRD entry with the errataed Channel Energy wording.