Yes, so? Why do classes need a role? People ask the same thing about the bard, but he is a good addition to the party. What role does the rogue fill? The Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian and Paladin can all fill multiple different roles within a party: control, ranged damage, melee damage, tank. Every arcane caster can have different roles, and divine casters are known for being able to fill in multiple places.
Unlike 4e, the party doesn't need roles in Pathfinder or 3.5. Not every party needs to have a dedicated healer, a tank, a skirmisher/skill monkey, and an arcane caster. Its a better question to ask what can the alchemist add to a party. To that, he can add decent melee, consistent AoE, multiple utility spells, a decent skill list, fort targeting poisons. He is a good all arround character. He likely wont outshine other classes, but he is fun to have and play.
Correct. no need to get defensive( and I have no idea how that 4e reference came in there...I don't play it). I have been toying with the class builds and was unsure where to go with it.
LOL... Some of us are a little sensitive about... grrr... 4E... *white knuckled fist*
In my weekly, the alchemist is the tank :) Helps that he started with 3 HD of Giant, but then went mutagens, etc. Our fighter and rogue are swashbuckler types (ocean going campaign), so he is the heavy hitter and damage soak.
I understand where you are coming from though, it's a very versatile class. What else i in your party? What style of game? (intrigue, dungeon crawl, wilderness, etc)
Please do not mention the .
In regards to the actual OPs question, the Alchemist can double as a Rogue in terms of disabling traps, fill in as a backup healer via potions, a backup melee skirmisher via their mutagens, general problem-solver with their alchemical abilities and 'magical' powers. Like the Bard they often get pidgeonholed by one or two of their abilities, but their versatility can enable an Alchemist to be played in quite a broad spectrum, but as always there are some things the Alchemist cannot do, such as engage in a spell-duel with a dedicated caster or brawl with Full BAB melee.
Still, nobody expects the girlishly-giggling, slightly demented, soot-stained guy in the apron to fling a bomb into the Dragon's mouth, now do they? Least of all the Dragon!
|
My observation is that the new classes don't really fill specific roles, or are capable with some tweaking of doing one or two.
Alchemist can be either a ranged specialist/ blaster, or a tank depending on how you build him. He can also work as a self buffer. How well he fills those roles is still up in the air. I think I've build one that does fairly well in either role but not as good as a person who is purely focused on that role.
Correct. no need to get defensive( and I have no idea how that 4e reference came in there...I don't play it). I have been toying with the class builds and was unsure where to go with it.
Sorry, I'm just sick and tired of people trying to pigeonhole classes, which assigning roles does. I think the idea of dedicated roles hurts the game. It makes people think that one way of playing a class is more proper or optimal to annother. I like to see fighters who do not focus on pure damage, rogues who can't disable a trap, and clerics who aren't expected to heal. I think it improves the game and helps immersion in the game.
4e goes so far as to specify in the PHB that your party needs certain roles filled in order to survive, and gives each class powers to fulfil one specific task. I think its a terrible design decision.
I agree with Ogre. Almost none of the new classes fit the traditional roles (cavalier and witch fit in with traditional fighter and wizard roles pretty well). And yet, somehow, all these classes still work to make a successful party. I think this is a sign that they are all very well designed. They all are good switch hitters who can adapt to provide whatever is needed at the time. I take that over someone hyperfocused to 1 task any day.
Roles do matter, in my experience. And it doesn't harm you for other people to discuss them.
When you're in a Paizo module or AP, it DEFINITELY helps if you have your 4 bases covered. They design them that way. I've played Age of Worms where we somehow ended up with a party with three skill monkeys, a tank, two blasters and a cloistered cleric who didn't turn very well. Basically, all we could do was deal damage. When we did get info about upcoming combats, we didn't have very much that we could do to adjust to that information, especially once we lost the player of the cloistered cleric to a job travel situation.
Home brew is very different, as the DM can tailor the campaign to the particular strengths of the party. But, even in those situations, a party where the four major roles are covered allows for a broader diet of monsters.
The Alchemist definitely strikes me as a 5th wheel type, like the bard, only without the ability to dominate the face part of the game.
Roles do matter, in my experience. And it doesn't harm you for other people to discuss them.
When you're in a Paizo module or AP, it DEFINITELY helps if you have your 4 bases covered. They design them that way. I've played Age of Worms where we somehow ended up with a party with three skill monkeys, a tank, two blasters and a cloistered cleric who didn't turn very well. Basically, all we could do was deal damage. When we did get info about upcoming combats, we didn't have very much that we could do to adjust to that information, especially once we lost the player of the cloistered cleric to a job travel situation.
Home brew is very different, as the DM can tailor the campaign to the particular strengths of the party. But, even in those situations, a party where the four major roles are covered allows for a broader diet of monsters.
The Alchemist definitely strikes me as a 5th wheel type, like the bard, only without the ability to dominate the face part of the game.
I come from a game group where the GM puts in wail of the banshee traps against parties without a rogue. I have played in 1 party with more than 2 of the "bases" covered in the past 5 years. That was the only party to TPK, the others didn't even see non-interparty deaths until revive became trivial, and the most frequently missing base class was the healer. Reviving became trivial even without a divine caster, only slightly more of a hassle. Every premade adventure I have ever seen can be played without one or more of the major roles. Challenges they assume will be trivial may not be, or vise versa, but that may be the case even with the standard classes. You just have to adjust your tactics. Thats what the classes in the APG make you do. Adjust your tactics to fit what you have, rather than some theoretical ideal. Thats why its not useful to talk about what role the alchemist fills so much as what useful things he brings to the table.
Now, you may think these things are the same. But what he brings to the table is not the same as the role he fills. When you talk about his role, you define how he should behave and what he should be doing. When you talk about what he brings to the table, you talk about what he is good at and where he excels. These are 2 different things. 1 affects perceptions of how a character should be played, which I feel is detrimental to the game. The other points out how to make the most out of the character, which is great guidance on how to build and create him.
Adjust your tactics to fit what you have, rather than some theoretical ideal. Thats why its not useful to talk about what role the alchemist fills so much as what useful things he brings to the table.
Lest this develop into a full-fledged thread-jack, we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Now, are you going to talk about the Alchemist like the OP asked?
Im about to play an alchemist in kingmaker, and currently am the partys only real melee type. I plan to be a super self buffer with my extracts and potions and wade in with a battle axe(im a dwarf, so im proficent for free)
My secondary pourpose is healing, using my extract and potion making abilities when nessicary. In fact my party has no dedicated healer. Instead we have multiple characters with healing abilities(including a bard and druid)
Roles do matter, in my experience. And it doesn't harm you for other people to discuss them.
When you're in a Paizo module or AP, it DEFINITELY helps if you have your 4 bases covered. They design them that way. ...
QFT
In our Runelords game, we have no cleric. We have my character, who uses healing wands with UMD, and a paladin. Sometimes that makes combat a little hectic. My character has certainly become a healbot at times, running around and delivering cures.
Roles are good to note, because they do have some truth to them. The alchemist in particular can fill quite a few rolls depending on his discoveries. Precise bombs makes a him a ranged blaster, infusions make him a party buffer, enhanced mutagens make him a more fierce melee combatant. At 1 level, all they really can do is brew potions when they have the time and money, throw bombs, and buff themselves. Still a very fun class to play :D
|
I love the alchemist. Played it for the first time at PaizoCON. But, that said, it has a major weakness.
It's bombs inflict splash damage, and only have a range of 20 ft., RAW. So, it's really hard to be effective in combat and not hurt or even kill your own party, either with splash damage, or direct hits due to splash weapon rules. It has a great varity of skills and abilities, but I spent most of the time using my alchemist to create flank bonuses, because I always risked killing my own party if I attacked with my bombs (and did drop one player, incidently).
Overall, a lot of fun, but it'd be nice if we could prevent splash damage at some point with the class (which may be in the class already, don't have the APG classes in front of me).
I love the alchemist. Played it for the first time at PaizoCON. But, that said, it has a major weakness.
It's bombs inflict splash damage, and only have a range of 20 ft., RAW. So, it's really hard to be effective in combat and not hurt or even kill your own party, either with splash damage, or direct hits due to splash weapon rules. It has a great varity of skills and abilities, but I spent most of the time using my alchemist to create flank bonuses, because I always risked killing my own party if I attacked with my bombs (and did drop one player, incidently).
Overall, a lot of fun, but it'd be nice if we could prevent splash damage at some point with the class (which may be in the class already, don't have the APG classes in front of me).
There is a feat in the Adventurer's Armory that helps with this. You can make it so splash does not affect 1 square and can toggle your miss dirrection by 1 square. I think its called Thrown Weapon Mastery.
What role does the Alchemist fill in a party? From the looks of them, they can either me a light melee, ranged bomber, or poisoner.
Don't forget, Alchemist's can make potions of Shield.
That alone is pretty useful.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's bombs inflict splash damage, and only have a range of 20 ft., RAW.
IIRC a bomb is a thrown weapon with a range INCREMENT of 20 feet, not a flat 20 ft. range. Thus, you can throw it farther, and use Far Shot with it.
So, it's really hard to be effective in combat and not hurt or even kill your own party, either with splash damage, or direct hits due to splash weapon rules.
If you have runitupandhitit allies (like my alchemist, Maro, has), get the Precise Bombs discovery. It's in the APG preview.
Overall, a lot of fun, but it'd be nice if we could prevent splash damage at some point with the class (which may be in the class already, don't have the APG classes in front of me).
Yes, there's an alchemist discovery that allows you to avoid some allies when causing splash damage.
What role does the Alchemist fill in a party?
I can say something funny about controlled substances but I won't
It seems painfully obvious alchemists should be handing out potions of resistance as soon as they're able.
I can say something funny about controlled substances but I won't
Rogue slips into the enemy camp, ties all their shoelaces together, grabs the loot and sneaks out.
The Ranger slips into the enemy camp, cuts all their throats, grabs the loot and sneaks out.
Alchemist walks into the enemy camp, sells them 'medicinal herbs' and leaves with his pockets full of gold and the enemy lying on the ground laughing and going "Wow, Man, I can see through time ...."
Incidentally I'm stealing that for my next character.
|
|
So on top of the mad bomber role ("Glass Canon?") the alchemist also tanks fairly well with his mutagens. Take feral mutagen for 3 attacks/ round at full BAB. Add enlarge person and maybe shield for some serious tanking. Probably not going to push the fighter or paladin aside in melee but he might come close when he's fully buffed.
What your role is depends very much on the discoveries you take and your ability scores.
As for flaming your buddies, take the precise bomb discovery and avoid 3-5 of them. Passing out potions of resistance is purely optional, the few times I've threatened other players they shrugged it off for one reason or another.
|
|
I can say something funny about controlled substances but I won'tRogue slips into the enemy camp, ties all their shoelaces together, grabs the loot and sneaks out.
The Ranger slips into the enemy camp, cuts all their throats, grabs the loot and sneaks out.
Alchemist walks into the enemy camp, sells them 'medicinal herbs' and leaves with his pockets full of gold and the enemy lying on the ground laughing and going "Wow, Man, I can see through time ...."
Incidentally I'm stealing that for my next character.
LOL!!! And THIS is why I shouldn't be on the messageboard at work. I can't laugh out loud like I'm trying not to right now!
And thanks for the info on the alchemist feats/discoveries, guys. Makes him much more appealing.
Just thought I'd mention an often-overlooked alchemist trick: reduce person, which is pure gold for a low-level bomb-throwing alchemist. Bomb damage isn't dependent on size at all, so the Dex bonus and size bonus to your attacks is all positive.