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Let's Dish Gish


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion

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Anybody want to do lyrics for "Gish it"?


Shameless bump to promote my suggestion :

Champion


Sothmektri wrote:
anthony Valente wrote:
As well, it's nice that the creators of this game care about their details. Let's not be surprised that the Paizo people care about words they use… they are writers as much as they are game designers after all.
Yeah, and I think it is pretty obvious that no one was saying 'who cares' as in 'it doesn't matter'. No one 'knocked the Paizo people'. Geez. It was in reference to doing it differently than the stated method of getting there which, as you note, in previous incarnations was inconsistent.

I apologize for mis-characterizing you Sothmektri. That better? :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
Seldriss wrote:

Shameless bump to promote my suggestion :

Champion

That's best reserved for the non-alignment theme-based replacement for the Paladin... a la Monte Cook.


Shameless-er bump FISHY?

Liberty's Edge

Martialist


Thesaurus thread!

So far there's not been a whole lot I like. One of the things I love about the Pathfinder classes is that their names are easily recognizable and tell you instantly what the class is about. The only one that comes close to that in this thread is the Warlock. Unless more information about the class in question is revealed, I don't think a fitting name can be found without resorting to compounds.


Dreaming Warforged wrote:
Did someone offer Praetorian? I know, I offered Praetor earlier.

I did as well, but it was ignored during the next round of "warlock!"

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

Witcher ! ;-)

Scarab Sages

Praetorian sounds good as well, I know everyone seems all hot for warlock but that name carries to much negativity to me. A non evil warlock is on par with a non LG paladin,no such thing.


I brought this up before:

Maugrist or Maugridon or Maugrian Names derived from Maugris, one of the 12 paladins of Charlemagne who was purported to have sorcerous powers.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber

I thought I saw it, but can't find it now, so either I'm copying someone else's idea or am a late comer to the game:

polymath (polyhistor is another possibility)

The Exchange

Gorbacz wrote:
Teydyn wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Wizards of the Coast. Intellectual Property. Gish. Understood as a fighting arcanist. Githyanki. Lawsuits.
But only if THEY have used the word "gish" themselves, right?
They did as recently as in 4e Monster Manual.

plus it is specific for the Githyanki and as such does not fit into Golarion.


anthony Valente wrote:

I brought this up before:

Maugrist or Maugridon or Maugrian Names derived from Maugris, one of the 12 paladins of Charlemagne who was purported to have sorcerous powers.

Okay, that's good, actually. Did not see it before.


anthony Valente wrote:
Maugrist or Maugridon or Maugrian. Names derived from Maugris, one of the 12 paladins of Charlemagne who was purported to have sorcerous powers.

I do wonder at what point bastardizations of proper names cross the "no made-up words" boundary, though. I agree they sound like good names, but insofar as they're not actual words, they might get rejected on that basis.


Luther wrote:
For all of those who are suggesting Armiger, if it hasn't been said already, I'd like to point out that the title is already being used for the lowest rank of the Hellknight hierarchy. This appears on page 65 of Council of Thieves #3: What Lies in Dust and it may lead to confusion if it is used as both a rank and class name.

BLAST! Well, if armiger is no good, how about scutifer?

Spoiler:
P.S. That's not an actual suggestion; it's a 1e Easter Egg, for anyone who gets it.

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm liking (still in some cases)

Athame
Cabalist
Myrmidon
Centurion (even with the Cylon reference... after all they have a dual nature... AND THEY HAVE A PLAN... whoops, sorry)
Glendower
Pendragon

While we're getting inspired by Wales and Arthurian Tales, I'll throw in
Myrddin (or variant thereof)

I like one poster's suggestion of Sidereal, except that I'm afraid people would think it was ripping off White Wolf (Sidereals are the "starborn" Exalted in the eponymous game, whose specialties are sorcery and, indeed, sometimes fighting)

I DON'T like magus as it's a bit too generic for me; but then that's also because I tend to use Magus or Mage (same etymological origin) for a catch-all term for "arcane caster" (i.e., sorcerers, wizards, and bards are all magi).

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

Just wanted to pop in here and thank everyone for continuing to provide suggestions. This thread has been very helpful!


Kirth Gersen wrote:
BLAST! Well, if armiger is no good, how about scutifer?

It would fit better a paladin or knight variant...


Medrod

From Tummo
...The power is called medrod or 'digestion fire' in medicine and Tummo in yoga tantra. The heat (fire) sustains life and protects the body/mind. The psychic fire increases the wisdom, burns the ignorant mind of the brain and gives realization and liberation from the darkness of unawareness. ...

Also another version of Mordred.

The Exchange

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Luther wrote:
For all of those who are suggesting Armiger, if it hasn't been said already, I'd like to point out that the title is already being used for the lowest rank of the Hellknight hierarchy. This appears on page 65 of Council of Thieves #3: What Lies in Dust and it may lead to confusion if it is used as both a rank and class name.
BLAST! Well, if armiger is no good, how about scutifer? ** spoiler omitted **

could it be?:

Cavalier:
Horseman
Lancer
Armiger
Scutifer
Esquire
Knight Errant
Knight Bachelor
Knight
Grand Knight
Banneret
Chevalier
Cavalier


Pathfinder Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

i think "athame" is excellent.

Scarab Sages

messy wrote:
i think "athame" is excellent.

I think then you might as well call it a cross

It's a religious tool.


Crimson Jester wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Bing!Bing!Bing!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner!
Spoiler:
I picked "scutifer" in particular because that's the next involuntary henchman a cavalier PC in the 1e UA gets, after attracting an armiger.

The Exchange

Kirth Gersen wrote:
Crimson Jester wrote:
** spoiler omitted **

Bing!Bing!Bing!

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner! ** spoiler omitted **

Ah Grognardia I know thee well.

Lantern Lodge

Kabbalist
Hierarch


Crimson Jester wrote:
Ah Grognardia I know thee well.

But, really, if we carried over the name "fighter" for that class, why not look back for some others as well?


Galnörag wrote:
Kabbalist

Yes, because nothing screams "fighter/mage" like a sect of elderly Jewish Talmudic scholars and mystics, lately copied by Madonna and other air-headed starlets.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
messy wrote:
i think "athame" is excellent.

I think then you might as well call it a cross

It's a religious tool.

However:

A) Most people don't know that, and

B) Even if it is a religious tool its a stabby-looking one associated with spellcasting!

If we're insisting on words already in existence those things would seem to make it a pretty strong contender.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
messy wrote:
i think "athame" is excellent.

I think then you might as well call it a cross

It's a religious tool.

Why not "kirpan," then?

I suspect that "Athame" is getting support because of its association with Monte Cook's Mageblade class, less than any inherent meaning it possesses.

Scarab Sages

Sothmektri wrote:


However:

A) Most people don't know that, and

B) Even if it is a religious tool its a stabby-looking one associated with spellcasting!

If we're insisting on words already in existence those things would seem to make it a pretty strong contender.

A: they do if they look the word up as folks here have been doing

b: so is a holy symbol.. like humm a cross

It fits no better then cross does, not a bit as it is NOT a weapon. You can stab with a cross too why does it not fit?


Has Thaumaturge been put forth yet?

Lantern Lodge

Y'know.. "Athame" is quickly becoming a favorite of mine, since I know that "Stabracadabra" will just be what I'll call it when not officially referencing or referring to it, and "Alvar" most certainly beats "gish" if just by the pleasantness of the sound.

It's got the formality, it's got the connotation (Knife and Magic), and it is suitably removed enough from common use and association for most mainstreamers to pick it up without much baggage.

...Is there a new base class coming out for it? My curiosity is piqued.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Tales Subscriber

Twix or Starburst... sorry someone had to say it.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
Sothmektri wrote:


However:

A) Most people don't know that, and

B) Even if it is a religious tool its a stabby-looking one associated with spellcasting!

If we're insisting on words already in existence those things would seem to make it a pretty strong contender.

A: they do if they look the word up as folks here have been doing

b: so is a holy symbol.. like humm a cross

It fits no better then cross does, not a bit as it is NOT a weapon. You can stab with a cross too why does it not fit?

How would you describe the physical object to someone who'd never seen one, and then describe it's use, without imagining that they would think 'oh, he's talking about a knife or a dagger', and then 'oh, it's used for magic rituals of some kind'?

You're being disingenuous. If you don't want it to be used because it is a religious tool then just say so. I've known a few Wiccans and one guy who swore up and down he was a druid (he even had an animal companion, a sugarglider), and am pretty confident none of them would care one bit about this, but perhaps they're exceptions to the rule. If you want as much claim on getting annoyed at this as a Christian might if someone said 'use a cross' then to my mind you have just as much right to it. In fact if it were up to me in any way, shape or form I'd remove it on the grounds that people would do so for some larger religion without much hesitation if they found it offensive. I am not a religious man, but the point of the game clearly isn't to go around randomly offending people, I'd think.

However, suggesting that an athame is anything other than a knife of some kind before it is 'repurposed', and that anyone simply finding one on the ground would think it was something other than a knife is just silly. I can understand a priest saying that a communion wafer is actually the body of Christ, but I'd think he was a complete screwball if he thought some Hindu kid finding one wouldn't go, 'hey, it's unleavened bread'.

Also, crosses were very effective weapons in the hands of Romans for a long, long time. They just took several people and other tools to use.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
Has Thaumaturge been put forth yet?

I think that was a 3.5 PrC or something. I know I just converted one to PFRPG in Part One of 'Rise of the Runelords'.

Liberty's Edge

Sothmektri wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Has Thaumaturge been put forth yet?
I think that was a 3.5 PrC or something. I know I just converted one to PFRPG in Part One of 'Rise of the Runelords'.

Lyric Thaumaturge, bard prestige class. Is that the one that added wizard spells to the bard list? Hmmmmm.


Studpuffin wrote:
Sothmektri wrote:
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Has Thaumaturge been put forth yet?
I think that was a 3.5 PrC or something. I know I just converted one to PFRPG in Part One of 'Rise of the Runelords'.
Lyric Thaumaturge, bard prestige class. Is that the one that added wizard spells to the bard list? Hmmmmm.

I dunno, but Elyrium the quasit was a thaumaturge. Apparently they were detailed in the 'Book of Fiends' which I don't own. I went from 3.0 to Pathfinder beta only pausing to buy a bunch of 3.5 books that got used for about a month:)

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

The thaumaturge in the 3.5 Book of Fiends originally appeared in the 3.0 Green Ronin book ARMIES OF THE ABYSS, which I wrote. We've used the class a few times in Pathfinder AP and would thus shy away from it for this purpose.

As far as we're concerned, a thaumaturge is sort of a demonologist type of dude.


Erik Mona wrote:


As far as we're concerned, a thaumaturge is sort of a demonologist type of dude.

Dude, where is my demon?

Liberty's Edge

Why not go with something just simple as Defender?


Studpuffin wrote:
Why not go with something just simple as Defender?

Smart bombs and hyperspace are munchkin galore.

J/K;)


Studpuffin wrote:
Why not go with something just simple as Defender?

Well, most will tell that a defender is more a guardian of a place or an order, therefore more in the line of a paladin.


Sothmektri wrote:
How would you describe the physical object to someone who'd never seen one, and then describe it's use, without imagining that they would think 'oh, he's talking about a knife or a dagger', and then 'oh, it's used for magic rituals of some kind'?

And yet not one of the "athame" adherents is a fan of "kirpan" -- which makes me pretty sure that athame is getting support purely because of its association with Monte Cook's Mage Blade class, not for any inherent meaning or applicability it possesses. Because a kirpan is almost the same thing as an "athame," but is a lot easier to pronounce.

That said, "athame" is not an inherently bad suggestion at all. It's just that defending it on the basis of definition rather than association is, in my estimation, misplaced.

Scarab Sages

Sothmektri wrote:

However, suggesting that an athame is anything other than a knife of some kind before it is 'repurposed', and that anyone simply finding one on the ground would think it was something other than a knife is just silly. I can understand a priest saying that a communion wafer is actually the body of Christ, but I'd think he was a complete screwball if he thought some Hindu kid finding one wouldn't...

Hate to tell ya dude but it's not a repurposed knife. They are made to fill that role just as a chalice for Christ blood is not just a cup, it sure looks like a cup but not and never made to be just a cup

and yes that is my objection it always has been it's like calling the class a cross. It is not a weapon. Show a pointy cross at someone who had never seen one..oh look a weapon I hold it on the short end.

Why not call the class a staff? a dagger? a cross? they all fit just as well as athame and make about as much sense


I think the reason Gish has been so popular is that their isn't really a word for for Warrior/Spellcaster in English. The closest I can think of is Bard, but that's already taken. If we don't want to stick to English we could use the word Istar which is elven for magician. Since 1st edition elves where all fighter/wizards I think it could be a good choice.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
And yet not one of the "athame" adherents is a fan of "kirpan" -- which makes me pretty sure that athame is getting support purely because of its association with Monte Cook's Mageblade class, not for any inherent meaning or applicability it possesses. Because a kirpan is almost the same thing as an "athame," but is a lot easier to pronounce.

No disrespect to Mr. Cook, but I'm not familiar with that class or it's features, so it isn't that for me, at least. I must've missed previous mentions of 'kirpan', but honestly I like 'athame' better simply because it sounds cooler:) 'Kirpan' just sounds like an onomatopoeia to me:)I don't know for what, exactly. Slapping someone with a cookie sheet, maybe?

Liberty's Edge

Seldriss wrote:
Studpuffin wrote:
Why not go with something just simple as Defender?
Well, most will tell that a defender is more a guardian of a place or an order, therefore more in the line of a paladin.

Not specifically Defender, I mean the concept for the name. Most of these are things that the average joe just isn't going to understand. At my gaming table, if it sounds complex there will be people who will avoid it just as a result: case in point, I'm reminded by the Lyric Thaumaturge. It's unpronouncability has driven off players who had the prereqs set up and everything.

Defender was just an example. You know what it does simply by its name. It defends. Casters cast. Fighters fight. Unless you're spending a lot of time researching Demonology, Religion, or studying a foreign language (i'm guilty of this in some of my above posts, i'm aware), then it makes more sense to stick with something understood by a larger base.


Juton wrote:
I think the reason Gish has been so popular is that their isn't really a word for for Warrior/Spellcaster in English. The closest I can think of is Bard, but that's already taken. If we don't want to stick to English we could use the word Istar which is elven for magician. Since 1st edition elves where all fighter/wizards I think it could be a good choice.

'Bard' would be better for this than what its used for, wouldn't it?

disclaimer: no I'm not recommending anyone change it.

Liberty's Edge

Juton wrote:
If we don't want to stick to English we could use the word Istar which is elven for magician. Since 1st edition elves where all fighter/wizards I think it could be a good choice.

I'm aware that the wizards in the Tolkien verse are called Istari, but everytime I hear it I think of Ishtar.

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