I am currently running a Pathfinder game for six players. Their characters were created using 25 points for their ability scores and I have given them maximum hit points for each level. They have slightly fewer magic items than they should have for their level, simply because I am normally a bit stingy with magic items and don't like the so-called "Christmas tree"-effect. The party consists of:
halfling rogue 11/shadowdancer 5
half-orc monk 16
half-orc barbarian 8/druid 8
half-elf paladin 8/angel disciple 8
tiefling sorcerer 16
dwarf cleric 16
As you can see there is a nice mix between melee characters and spellcasting characters and they have access to a fair amount of healing as well.
When creating encounters I normally treat their APL as two higher than what it actually is, one for the 25 point buy and one for having six characters. I also give all monsters maximum hit points. So far this has worked very well. As others have pointed out the trick is to mix things up and tailor each encounter to your party's specific strengths and weaknesses. Having only a single opponent doesn't work as well as all the characters can focus their attacks on one target (this is especially true if you have a paladin facing an evil dragon, evil outsider, or undead). Dragons and beholders work well as single opponents as they have a large number of attacks to balance the party's large number of attacks in a round. I normally send multiple opponents, some melee, some ranged, some spellcasting to keep my party on their toes.
Despite all that I occasionally have fights that end too fast for my liking or that don't necessarily work out the way I thought they would. It's always good to remember that a party of level X is meant to defeat an encounter of level X without too much trouble. If you want to challenge them real good go for an encounter three to four levels higher, with multiple opponents. I find that groups of enemies with class levels make for interesting opponents (I recently had my group up against an evil 16th level cleric with the "antilife shell" spell active. The group didn't have access to the cleric and the sorcerer as they were trying to save 'em from the evil cleric and so they didn't have access to spells or ranged weapons). And in my book there is nothing wrong with throwing some extra enemies at your group and then reducing their hit points or AC slightly when you realise that you have overdone it.
The more you use the system the better you'll get at judging encounters and what will work against your party and what will not. Don't feel like you did something wrong by giving them 25 point-buy and having six players.
Others have said it, but I'll keep it short and simple.
This party is:
Taking these points together, Challenge Rating is sort of useless to you. Run the encounters you want, and pick monsters based on their AC, HP, Attack bonus, Damage, and number of enemy actions in the encounter (should never be less than half the PCs number of actions). That's how we used to do it. You can still use CR as a comparison between monsters, but like most parties yours is so far from the prototype that CR is misleading.
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Some cavaliers with spirited charge using hit-and-run tactics. Some alchemists and wizards. Rogues or trapdoor spiders with spring attack. Your party has a lot of actions, but they are slow. I ran an encounter for 12 level 1 p.c's. The encounter as written was meant to be tough with 8 first level bandits and 1 level 2 ranger. So i doubled those numbers and maxed out their hp. The party was challenged and there was much rejoicing. When a nearby owlbear got attracted by the noise he went down like a punk, because 12 actions vs. 1 action means a CR 4 is meaningless yo. So beef up your critters, add more level appropriate monsters and occasionally rejoice with your players when they reduce your big scary monsters to a fine red mist. Because if everyone's having fun, then you're playing the right game.
So what it comes done to is:
"Oh noes! I threw out all the guidelines and the rules and now it doesn't work! Woe is ME! The system doesn't work!"
So what it comes done to is:
"Oh noes! I threw out all the guidelines and the rules and now it doesn't work! Woe is ME! The system doesn't work!"
Hey cool it guys.
Several people have accused the OP of being defensive or somesuch, and I haven't seen it in any of his posts. No reason to tear into him over this.
I think he just eeds to change how he does APL. A party of six it +1 APL, with great gear and 20 point buy I would beg that group at APL+2 or +3
Meaning a CR 3 encounter is cake, CR 5 would be about average. That is the issues he is having is he is constructing the encounter for a group of 4 with average states and gear and even then a CR3 encounter is not a real challenge, CR 5 maybe but not CR 3
SNIP
This is exactly the situation in my game. 25 point build, 6 PCs. I raise the APL by 2 and give monsters max hp. It's worked really well, with a few roll-over encounters and a number of epic fights. I love it!
Hyrum.
Super Genius Games
"We err on the side of awesome."
So what it comes done to is:
"Oh noes! I threw out all the guidelines and the rules and now it doesn't work! Woe is ME! The system doesn't work!"
Hey cool it guys.
Several people have accused the OP of being defensive or somesuch, and I haven't seen it in any of his posts. No reason to tear into him over this.
+1
So what it comes done to is:
"Oh noes! I threw out all the guidelines and the rules and now it doesn't work! Woe is ME! The system doesn't work!"
Hey cool it guys.
Several people have accused the OP of being defensive or somesuch, and I haven't seen it in any of his posts. No reason to tear into him over this.
+1
If anything some of the responders have been a bit overly defensive about the rules.
My experience from having played only a little Pathfinder at higher (approx 8th-9th) level is that it does suffer from powering up the players too much.
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So what it comes done to is:
"Oh noes! I threw out all the guidelines and the rules and now it doesn't work! Woe is ME! The system doesn't work!"
Hey cool it guys.
Several people have accused the OP of being defensive or somesuch, and I haven't seen it in any of his posts. No reason to tear into him over this.
While a bit harsh, it is pretty accurate of what he did. He basically didn't follow a single guideline or hell even some rules (like not counting a player for exp purposes) and his title is that his players broke the system. Not I messed up, my players did it. I think that is what is drawing so much of the ire. But then again we haven't heard from him since his clarification post.
The biggest mistake I keep seeing people make is sending out one monster against the group.
Unless that monster's CR is double the group, they're still more likely to lose. Why? Because he has one actions while the group has four.
Well, six in this case.
Others have mentioned the problems with wealth, characters taking feats they shouldn't be able to, and the hueg character point buy
Use tactics.
Monster which runs head-to-head with such a group are down in less then one round.
Flank them, run for their healers first, silence the caster, use range combat from great range.
I saw a lot of low Ref-Classes, Spells like Fireball would work nice. :)
Normally I didn't like "tailored" encounters, monsters which exactly aims the players weakness (which the normal (ingame) don't know), but you can modify it a little, so the players didn't recognize it.
e.g. I had a 3.5ed group, ~ level 8 (barbarian, sorcerer, monk, fighter and melee ranger).
A level 6 Orc Raid (~ 10 Orcs) totaly owned them, why? because they use tactics.
First round, both Orc caster castes "briar web" between the PCs and themself. Then the other Orcs grab there Orc-Bows (Mighty Bows +2) and attack, 10 Arrows/round, aiming at the partys low AC Chars first.
As the melees passed the web, their spellcaster already draw back.
Tactics and clever use of abilities are always an amazing way to push up an encounter.
At your party I would suggest a few rust monster or Sunder-NPCs, the party have to decide then to attack and allow the NPCs to destroy their armor/weapon or have to thinks about another tactic.
If I'm not totally wrong, your player have a lot experience and this is one of your first rounds as DM or?
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and good old confusion will soon be a viable option for taking out a melee heavy party. Throw it from great range and watch the poorly willed figther bash away on the healers. Vampire spawn with dominate is horrible as well. Anything with flight and invisibility. Grease to prevent charging. Solid fog, stinking cloud alle sorts of neat battlefield control, which - by the way - they lack, so large numbers of opponents is great.
Throw in a lot of low level alchemists to ignore all that armor and deal splash damage. The possibilities are endless, but I must say that a group with that much melee, armor and healing will be tuff, but you can soften them with traps and put archers (and casters) on balconies (two much frustration for meleetypes). Arrange for the fights to be in difficult terain and possibly with a lot of acrobatics needed, which sucks in heavy armor.....and so on and so forth.
Our campaign is an utter mess. I have a hard time challenging the PCs. At 3rd level, 3 out of the 6 PCs have an AC of between 21-23. Most typical monsters of that level can't touch them (only hitting on Natural 20s). They output so much damage that a group of just 4 of them can kill even tough CR 5 monsters (owlbears)without getting a scratch. They destroyed a shadow which was ignoring their AC in a single round. A gelatinous cube was reduced to paste in two rounds without getting off a single attack.
Has PF so drastically changed the power level of characters that the CR system doesn't work? Seriously, I've been playing 3rd edition or its incarnations for nearly 10 years now, and this is the first time that I've felt that the system just doesn't work.
I was wanting to wrap up the campaign in a couple of sessions anyway, but it looks like next session I might need to migrate to a new system and end the campaign early. As it is, the system just seems unplayable.
What am I doing wrong?
Wow, I am having the opposite problem. My players are getting whipped by creatures with CR = APL. They are a party of all full casters though, at 4th level. It's an exercise and a half coming up with encounters that don't just melee the heck out of them; but I know good and well in a few levels they'll be dominating the battlefield.
OT:
Alot of good stuff.What he said,
For the record, "she." But thank you. :)
OT:
** spoiler omitted **
hehe :D genderpwned!
OT:
** spoiler omitted **
Either way I think yuor post was very well-thought out.
OK. I think everyone has told the originator he needs to beef up the encounters, per the rules. Enough said.
Looking at his party composition, they are always going to be strong in melee, strong in buffs and strong in healing. Until higher level or the scorching ray wand is exhausted, they will be strong in blasting magic. So they are going to be tough in straight melee encounters against creatures just trying to overpower them with melee damage.
Here is where they are weak. No rogue, so traps are going to eat them up. They are slow as molasses - quick monsters, particularly ones with spring attack/ride-by attack, etc. will be difficult for them. Hit and run attacks will annoy the crap out of them, because they won't be able to run anybody down. Bad reflex saves will take their toll. Remember the armor check penalties - may the gods help them if they ever have to climb something, or swim, or sneak up on something.
That should give you some ideas on what types of encounters, as opposed to what CRs, should challenge your party. Party design, like adventure design, is full of choices. Those choices mean that the party will do well with some types of encounters/challenges, and struggle with others. Allow them their easy victories when their skills are a good match for the encounter, but remember to baalnce it with different types of encounters that will exploit their weaknesses.
Let them enjoy their fun pounding melee beasts into small bloody chunks, and when they get insufferably cocky, throw in a difficult to detect pit trap that will drop them into an underground lake if they don't make a challenging reflex save, where they will be attacked by a couple of sahaugin rogues with spring attack. I guarantee they will not feel a lack of challenge.
Just an example of what you can throw at them if you are a GM. Fact is, as GM you control every aspect of the world, including the rules. You should always be able to find a way to challenge your PCs by manipulating the encounters, the environment or even the rules. So long as they (and you) are having fun, it's all good.
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The thing I notice about low level D&D/PRPG is that most challenges are physical/brute combats. Once you get into the mid-high levels, you start getting breath weapons/area of effect, SoS/SoD effects, and spellcasters.
If you throw in a spellcaster to back up his minions or a pyrohydra from time to time, the group will still have the fear of GM and you can keep them on their toes without spiraling the CR/xp thing out of control.
GM's best friend: Rust monsters.
It will effectively give you a reset button for your parties equipment, allowing you some breathing room for at least one adventure.
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A lot of DMs make the same mistake, I've even done it before!
6 players means you can't do iconographic "party VS single monster" without one of two things happening most typically.
1. Party DESTROYS the monster, they just have more actions.
2. DM overestimates PCs, or they have a few bad rolls and multiple character deaths ensue.
Shake things up with terrain. Icy, muddy, etc. Multiple enemies using PC-like tactics, hit and run, buffs, etc. Villains and monsters use the treasure they have, it's not just there to reward the PCs.
Best of luck!
Just toward discounting the second cleric... DON'T DO THAT.
He might be low on AC and attack, but that's not all what a cleric can do. He heals, he bufs and debufs, so he may still be a mighty addition to the party anyway.
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Remember the armor check penalties - may the gods help them if they ever have to climb something, or swim, or sneak up on something.
This was a major problem for my group running through RotRL. A certain rope bridge in the 1st AP was removed after an aborted attempt at invading the fortress, and they were left trying to figure out how to get three heavy armor wearing characters out to fortress through rough currents. Took literally 4 hours of RL game time and much flailing to come up with a decent solution that didnt require leaving the armor behind.
The problem is primarily the size of your group. Those extra two characters make more difference than having extra feats, high scores, etc in my book.
Here are some suggestions:
1. Use environment/setting challenges against them. Climbing, swimming, narrow hallways where all 6 cant be effective, combat that forces the group to split up, etc.
2. Create quest challenges. I am running RotRL with 10 players, and even amping up the monsters and their number a lot, the challenge of a straight melee fight wouldn't be that hard in the game. Instead, I had the cleric divinely directed to try to redeem the BBEG, which meant the party had to capture them alive and get them back to town. Made the entire encounter twice as hard by making them capture the villian.
3. Make them use their brains. Not their INT scores, but the ones IRL. I recently threw a quickling at my group, and had I spent more time preparing, he probably would have TPKed the party. They were completely unprepared to deal with an encounter that couldnt be solved with melee fighting and power spellcasting. They had to trick him twice and get a very lucky shot in to finally kill him.
4. You have to be a bit more careful about magic items and gold given out with a larger group. With 4 players, typically at only one, at most two can use a wand so if they have 4 wands, thats only 1-2 of them being used a round. With larger groups, you have to remember that potentially all four could be in play. Same goes for magic weapons, armor, etc.
5. From posts I have read here, it seems that if you increase the numbers and either add the advanced template, or max hps for your encounters, you should be okay with 6 players. If that doesn't work, try increasing the difficulty until you give them a really tough fight, then scale it back a bit (/hat tip to Eddie Izzard). That should be about the correct CR for your group.
6. If a 10 player group doesn't break the system, I seriously doubt a 6 player group will do it. IIRC, James Jacobs runs a 10 player game as well, so I am sure Pathfinder is well tested to handle a large group.
Hope this helps!
Worse than that, I'm getting a vibe here that some of the posters consider me an idiot. I'm not an idiot, and I understand many of the fundamentals of gaming from a D&D perspective. I'm not even a newbie. I'm a professionally published module author who has been DMing through various incarnations of D&D and other RPGs since 1989, including weekly campaigns that have gone to high levels.
This was my first attempt at a Pathfinder campaign, and what a mess it is! I haven't been more frustrated in gaming for years. Since it's going to take more work to try to fix this campaign than just to start a new one, I'll probably just start a new one.
Now I'll just have to decide whether to go back to 3.5 or ahead to 4e.
Some people here are impolite, that's true. But I'm a bit mystified by your posting here. You ask where you went wrong but you don't seem to be fundamentally budging from the idea that it's the system that's wrong and not your adjustments (or lack thereof) to the composition of your campaign. All of the issues you've brought up are pretty much the same as you'd encounter in 3.5 had you jumped into the campaign in the same way. The analysis and advice people have been giving would pretty much be exactly the same in 3.5 as in PF. That makes me wonder just what the nature of your experiences are with the 3e family. My guess would be that you've rarely worked with this many players since that seems to be at the center of the troubles you're having.
Frankly, if you are having this trouble with PF, I can't recommend you step back to 3.5.
Wrote lots
Stick with it. The best bit of advice came from James Jacobs and slap the advanced template on the critters. Its an easy fix and one I use. Stick on +2 on damage, to hit and save DCs. +4 to AC and 2hps per hit die.
A lot of the issues you described I hope are down to the internet not being the best form for complex communication, essentially what you are getting is a quick sentence in real life and not an Ivory Tower stance.
I hope.
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Yes, if you are having problems challenging the group you are playing with, you WILL have to change monsters, make adjustments to encounters and modules, etc. Nearly all DMs will have to do that eventually, as their players get more experienced, master more of the rules, figure out potent feat/class/spell combinations, etc. Yes it is a PITA, and it does take a lot more prep time before the game. However, in my experience, and that extra effort is worth it when you run the adventure and watch the players get both scared and excited as they face each peril.
Honestly, I don't think you and your group made any drastic mistakes, they are just playing very efficiently with a few small burbles. About 4 levels from now, it will all even out. Yes your party is killing monsters now in one round, just wait till an ogre crits someone for 75 points of damage or a troll gets three hits and then rends. If their ACs are still too high, add a couple levels of barbarian to said monsters, giving them combat feats and rage. Nothing says I respect you more than a DM siccing a power attacking greatsword wielding barbarian ogre on the main tank of a party :P
The game gets much more difficult, and the danger level imo gets higher in the middle levels. It does even out some at higher levels, as saves, equipment, and overall power prevent most one-shot kills. Bottom line is brute strength, damage dealing, and heavy armor are dominant from lvls 1-4, but then monsters start matching spells vs weaknesses from your party, like will attacks on the barbarians, fort saves for the mages, etc. Words commonly uttered at my table now ("Everyone roll a fort save, reflex save, etc") were never spoken until 4th level, when AOE spells and SLA, breath weapons, gas clouds, and the like become more commonplace. In other words, fret not, danger and fear of death will visit your table soon enough. :)
PS - For the record, I am not advocating deliberately trying to kill party members, rather increasing the difficulty until dice are rolled with held breath and cheers erupt after a hard fought battle. Thats when you know you did good work as a DM.
Concerning the wizard who has a great item (the wand of scorching ray), consider the following: 1) it's an expendable resource; 2) it didn't start fully charged [maybe with 18 charges to it]; and 3) what else can you possibly give a wizard at 3rd level that will be useful?
How about a fully charged wand of Magic Missile, CL 3 (2d4+2 is soooo much less encounter-breaking than 4d6).
Or just some of the basics, like rings of protection, cloaks of resistance, bracers of armor. Fundamental stuff. Pearls of power are fun too.
And best of all, a spellbook with some good spells in it.
I decided on a 20 point buy because the setting is high fantasy. The book made me think that 15 points would be a lower magic or "gritty" campaign style. Of course at that point we had 4 characters, no fighter, no wizard, and I thought they could use the slight edge.
No worries. 20-point buy is just fine.
It's just that you should be aware that bigger group = less powerful individuals, and if that's not how it started, or how it was planned, then some effort to ramp up the encounters may be needed.
I was rushed into running a campaign, and I'm trying to make the best of the situation we have. I was posting on here to see if there's any easy way to salvage the campaign or if I should just restart it (we're only a half dozen or so sessions in).
I don't see why it needs salvaging.
You just need to adjust your encounter design. Imagine a dozen hobgoblins instead of one owlbear - sure the wand will scorch one or two of them to embers in the blink of an eye, but the rest will still be combat effective, and those charges won't last forever.
Use terrain to your advantage. I bet orcs can fire crossbows farther than that wizard can fire his wand.
And even the fight with an owlbear could go much differently if the owbear (nocturnal predator, like an owl, right?) hits them at night while they're sleeping, when all the fighters (etc.) are not wearing their armor because the wizard was on watch.
Considering some of the suggestions of 1) creating very specialized encounters for a very unusual group; 2) forbidding a second cleric from being in the party; 3) adding templates to existing monsters; and 4) pretty much throwing modules out the window - I think that there's no easy fix to the situation.
1) Creating specialized encounters? No need. Just add a couple HP per HD to whatever the module gives you. Use some of those suggestions in the Bestiary for quickly advancing the monsters, especially if it looks to be an easy encounter. It takes less than a minute to do it.
2) Now that was just silly. Who said to forbid a second cleric? In any case, DMing is about tailoring the situation to fit the group you have. You have two clerics, so plan on tons of healing and buffing, so prepare accordingly.
3) Templates are fun, but not necessary. If your encounter says one Owlbear, use two. Or give the one an extra 20 HP and maybe +2 or +4 STR (adjust the +hit and +damage and your set). If your encounter says to use 3 ghouls, use 4 or 5 (watch out for undead; you have two clerics who can Channel Energy, and a paladin that will be able to do that too, soon). Etc.
4) Remember that NO module is created for 6 characters. If YOU agree to run a game for 6 players, YOU are already agreeing to some extra work on your hands to make a pregenerated module fit such a large group. It is extra work. But YOU already knew that, didn't you?
Worse than that, I'm getting a vibe here that some of the posters consider me an idiot. I'm not an idiot, and I understand many of the fundamentals of gaming from a D&D perspective. I'm not even a newbie. I'm a professionally published module author who has been DMing through various incarnations of D&D and other RPGs since 1989, including weekly campaigns that have gone to high levels.
I never considered you an idiot, but from your original post, it did sound like maybe you were a new DM.
Since you're not new, and since you have so much experience, I'm curious about your answers to questions I posed earlier:
Reminder: my earlier post in this thread.
1. How did the owlbear die in one round? Was it just above-average rolls by the PCs? If so, then you should know that, right, and not be upset that one encounter went their way.
2. How did the PCs surprise a gelatinous cube that can automatically sense them at an equal or greater range than they can possibly hope to detect it? The only real options are that the cube surprises the PCs or that there is no surprise.
This was my first attempt at a Pathfinder campaign, and what a mess it is! I haven't been more frustrated in gaming for years. Since it's going to take more work to try to fix this campaign than just to start a new one, I'll probably just start a new one.
It's not a mess. So a couple encounters went favorably for the group. Big deal.
The biggest mess you have is that you have 6 players. This WILL require work. But you're a professional published module author, so you already knew this when you agreed to DM a 6-player group. You already knew that you would have to do some work adjusting the encounters for the challenge.
Which makes me wonder why you made the original post in the first place?
Was it that all you wanted was advice on how to spice up encounters for a large group? If so, then the tone and subject of that first post was way off and, consequently, got the results that such a post probably should.
So, do you want advice for spicing up encounters? If so, maybe starting a new thread might be wise.
Now I'll just have to decide whether to go back to 3.5 or ahead to 4e.
Ahh, so apparently you're giving up on Pathfinder already. Just a bit of fair warning then. As a DM who's played 3.5, Pathfinder, and 4e, I can say without any hesitation at all, that you will have exactly the same problems in all 3 systems. Specifically, a 6-player group will require more effort and will require you to enhance the challenges. Period. In all three game systems.
Two words: swamp adventure.
Or maybe even one: Archers.
Doesn't sound like they could really close in on a group of 30 move speed archers volleying at them across an open field and then fleeing whenever the slow but steady tanks drew close. Even if they did need an 18 or even a 20 to hit, this would eventually wear the PCs down, I think.
Wrote lots
Stick with it. The best bit of advice came from James Jacobs and slap the advanced template on the critters. Its an easy fix and one I use. Stick on +2 on damage, to hit and save DCs. +4 to AC and 2hps per hit die.
A lot of the issues you described I hope are down to the internet not being the best form for complex communication, essentially what you are getting is a quick sentence in real life and not an Ivory Tower stance.
I hope.
I agree, just add the advanced template on your creatures, an even if the items the characters have may be "overpowered", in a level or so, if you are a little more stingy on equipment granted, this will help to pull things in line. You will run into the same problems with 3.5 or 4E, in regards to CR, but probably more so in 3.5.
If it's new to you, don't expect to be an expert immediately, and draw from this board what is useful, then expirement some more.
But you know best in regards to what you want or like, so hopefully you find the game that fits you best.
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I think the most important question is one that hasn't been examined yet- are the players enjoying the game? Or are they bored and distracted? If they are enjoying the game, then half the battle is over. As long as you don't get frustrated as the DM, you have some time to practice and experiment and figure out different ways that you can provide more challenge the party. From their perspective, the game is great, and as you challenge them more, will only get better, or at least harder.
Don't be too hard on yourself or give up if things don't unfold in the game like you expect, just keep tweaking things and eventually you will get things where you can feel good about how your adventures play out. My first 3.5 game, our DM was a total newb and so were most of us players. In hindsight, were were way overpowered with magic and "awarded" feats, waded through monsters way over our level, and were blindingly rich. However, all of us, DM included, had a great time and remember that game fondly, even if most of us would not enjoy it as much today.
BTW, I have DMed since 1st ed DnD, but never a group larger than say 5-6. Since I started up with Pathfinder about a year ago, my group has 10 players in it, and you can't just tweak a few things, add a couple hps or a class level to the monsters, or increase the encounter size...you usually have to do all that and more. I too was very unhappy with my early results, which tended to be a party TPK or a walkover of the monsters by the party. At the height of my frustration, someone on the boards here directed me to these articles by Monte Cook, and they helped me a LOT, so I am re-posting here for the OP to take a look at.
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The orcs with crossbows and hobgoblin fighters (as written) couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
To be a decent challenge for a 4th level party of 6 characters with a 25 point buy, you need a CR 6 encounter (APL = 4, add 1 to the APL for being a larger group, and I'd safely add another 1 for the higher stats).
That would be an XP "budget" of 2400 xp. If I were going to spend it on a mix of orcs and hobgoblins (which is, by the way, kind of strange -- conflicting cultural alignments, you know; but whatever), I'd probably come up with something like this:
4 Orcs = CR 3, 800 xps
4 Hobgoblins = CR 4, 1200 xps
1 Hobgoblin commander (Add another level of fighter) = CR 1, 400 xps
If that encounter didn't have at least 9 opponents, it wasn't even an average encounter for these guys. To be challenging, it would have to have something like 3 more of those commanders.
(Primarily calculating this from the notes on encounter design: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gamemastering.html)
If the module didn't have at least that level of challenge, I wouldn't be surprised at all that players are walking over it -- the original group of 9 is a completely average encounter meant primarily to wear them down!
To help adapt previous materials quickly, the easiest path I'd take would be to do some very small tweaks on the fly -- just give the average monster +1-2 hps/HD, and a blanket +2 attack and damage on whatever attack seems to be their primary mode. For major foes, I'd probably hand-tweak them to suit, saving my prep time for the things that make the most difference in the adventure.
The shadow was killed by a combination of Spiritual Weapon (force damage - like a magic missile - so no miss chance) and a big greataxe strike. The axe was coated with a Magic Weapon oil, and the fighter succeeded on his miss chance roll for attacking incorporeal.
Incorporeal has no miss chance anymore. Maybe you should check the NEW rules?
The characters were created with I think 25 point buy for slightly better powered characters than the base 20. I wanted the characters to be powerful enough to handle threats at low-levels; apparently they are too effective.
You have more than 4 players and let them play with higher than normal ability scores. What did you expect?
Dwarven Fighter (High Strength, High Constitution) using a great axe (weapon focus, weapon specialization); with power attack, I think he deals 1d12+9 damage. He is in full plate armor and has an AC of 21, I think (from Dex adjustment).
Weapon Spec? Again: Check the rules!!!
Wizard (evoker) has a Wand of Scorching Ray (not fully charged) and is eating up the charges in every encounter. Until he is out, he is going to be a canon.
Caster Level? How many charges? As written it sounds like an overpowered item for level 3. But no big deal. Sunder it! Or let it run out of spells with little nasty monsters who doesnt stand even half a hit with a scorching ray.
The fight with the owlbear was with just a single owlbear. It charged the dwarven fighter and missed (bad roll I guess). Then the fighter and battle cleric moved into flank positions and the wizard zapped it with scorching ray. Dead in a round. Got off one attack (which missed).
With such a big party you must try to challenge your players with more monsters, not on single big monster. If you take only 1 big monster you will have one of the 2 results: Monster to big (or bad rolls) - TPK.
Monster not big enough - Short work for the players. Let them come at least in couples or use sidekicks.The gelatinous cube was in a previous session with everybody. They spotted it and got off a surprise round. The wizard zapped it with 2 scorching rays and the alchemist got it with 2 bombs before it got a chance to move. Dead in a round.
Again. One single monster. The pure quantity of actions the players have over the one enemie is killing it! More so if it loses ini.
I guess the immediate thing to do is to permanently drain key ability scores to get them better in line with the 15 point buy. Kill off one of the clerics. Destroy the suits of full plate with rust monsters (which I tried to do last session, but they were killed off before they got a chance).Either that or run them through a 7th level module and see how they do. If it's a TPK, we'll that's an easy way to reset a campaign.
These fixes seem very over-the-top.
The easiest thing to do to fix prewritten modules for 6-player groups is this: increase the number of enemies by 1,5. So, 2 enemies become 3 of the same type, 4 enemies become 6 of the same type, and so on.
One monster should become two, since one monster will always be destroyed very quickly by a group of 6 players. 1 action in a round is virtually nothing compared to 6, after all.
That fix means almost no extra work for you, and it should work well to challenge the players as intended by the module.
In the campaign I am in now there are 7 players. To help balance this the gm has added a couple more monsters per encounter and also given the enemies more levels or a level or two for the monsters. I am getting ready to start my third character of the campaign because of his tactics and my poor saving throws. My first character failed the save for a suggestion spell and ended up grappled by a monster and before I could get free I was killed. My most recent death came because the tactics of the enemy divided the party into two groups and my character was hit two many times to survive even though I had a 30 armor class at 10th level and was taking out an enemy every 1.5 rounds. I was also the target of scorching ray.
One thing that I could suggest is use more mobile enemies on your group. A 4th level sorcerer with magic missile and scorching ray will hit the tanks almost every time. He can cast a spell and then move 30 feet away from the party. They will have to make double moves to try to keep up with him so they can attack.
Keep up with the game. It may take a little getting used to but IMO it is better than 3.5. Good luck
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Your new best friends:
Pfd20srd.com
Dinglesgames.com
Dmtools.org
1st will get you all the rules you could ever need, in shiny hyperlink form.
2nd will let you generate npc's (3.5 & pf, although the pf rules aren't perfect yet)
3rd has a wealth of npc resources, monsters, encounters and the like.
I have had similar issues, but with these tools and a little elbow grease you'll have customized encounters right quick.
As far as modules right out of the box...is it a pfrpg or 3.5 rules adventure?
If the latter, pcs will seem wicked tough, and if pfrpg, I'd check enemy placement, npc selection, and traps before running the mod.
The other option is to run a series of encounters with invisible, touch attack wielding, incorporeal shadows underwater. Which could be fun once, but the players will start to think that I'm deliberately and constantly trying to undermine their characters' talents.I guess the immediate thing to do is to permanently drain key ability scores to get them better in line with the 15 point buy. Kill off one of the clerics. Destroy the suits of full plate with rust monsters (which I tried to do last session, but they were killed off before they got a chance).
Either that or run them through a 7th level module and see how they do. If it's a TPK, we'll that's an easy way to reset a campaign.
Actually,
No. The Bestiary really shouldn't be used as the only source of encounters. Want to give them an appropriate challenge?Put them up against 8 4th level NPCs with NPC class levels. Or 6 4th level PC classed NPCs (or some mix thereof).
Honestly, I've found that bestiary critters are good for random encounters you expect the PCs to walk all over, or for nasty guard animals. For regular encounters, I prefer sentient humanoids. Elves, Drow, Dwarves, Goblins, Hobgoblins, etc. And don't get locked into the 'Must use bestiary stats'. There are sections in the bestiary about increasing the CR for a reason. Hobgoblin CR3 too weak? Well, apply a template, or add 2 levels of rogue to it, or 2 levels of fighter, or sorcerer, or warrior.
Basically, it's easier to adjust for a big party (6) by making most encounters groups of sentients than it is to try to balance out monsters. Doesn't mean you can't add in some beasts (a goblin druid level 4 with an animal companion wolf is a nasty combo).
Your new best friends:
Pfd20srd.com
Dinglesgames.com
Dmtools.org
Did you mean d20pfsrd.com?
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Did you mean d20pfsrd.com?Your new best friends:
Pfd20srd.com
Dinglesgames.com
Dmtools.org
<_< >_>
Yes, yes of course I did.
Thanks jyrest
Yes, yes of course I did.
Thanks jyrest
Unless your party is two people (and even that can be shaky), one monster vs the group does not work. Even with just four people, the group still does four things every time the owlbear does one.
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Also: dinglesgames.com has a char generator built in.
That's pretty much the coolest pf accessory I've seen thus far.
If they're trouncing CR 3-5 modules, yes, run them through lvl 7 ones.
Just be wary of enervation, ability drain and the like...the one thing they wont have is good restoration type magic.
With regards to 3.5 material, you can use it, but most of the high level stuff, book of 9 swords, and spell compendium will be higher power than standard pf characters. Likewise, standard monsters from 3.5 will be significantly weaker against pf PC's.
They've powered up melee to the poiint that fighter 20 is a desirable character, while making it more difficult to cast spells while threatened, not to mention clerics losing heavy armor.
Invisible rust monster. Color Spray. Six goblins with alchemist fire. Pick one and giggle. Hell pick all three and be a sick bastard.
Invisible rust monster. Color Spray. Six goblins with alchemist fire. Pick one and giggle. Hell pick all three and be a sick bastard.
Oh good lord come on, he doesn't have an ultra killer party, they're a normal 6 person 20 point party with decent gear. It's a dime a dozen.
Simple rules to follow - really, this is DM adjustment 101.
Don't run them against a single opponent. In all of 3e, 6 guys on 1 is easy mode regardless of how tough the critter is, unless it's flying up where they can't get at it or something else fundamental. If you use a singleton as a boss, max its hitpoints.
If you are using 3.0e adventures, you should use encounters 2 ELs above what you would in PF.
If you are using 3.5e adventures, you should use encounters 1 EL above what you would in PF.
That's a lot easier than adding advanced templates and that kind of nonsense - that takes work. Just run them against higher level encounters.
I am running a Pathfinder campaign where I'm using a lot of 3.0 and 3.5e adventures largely as written. I only really ever bother to re-stat major NPCs; otherwise I use the EL+1/EL+2 rule above. 6 level 1 guys can take a EL3 PF encounter, a EL4 3.5 encounter, or a EL5 3.0 encounter well.
Here's a hint - if your PCs are rolling over a certain level of threat... Raise the threat. Right?
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The problem is that even if I took a 4th level adventure and doubled (or even tripled) the number of opponents, those bad guys still have a +5 to hit and 20 hp. They will go down in a single round and miss on 90% of their attacks.
The only thing wrong that I'm seeing is that you're underestimating the power of multiple monsters. While the individual may only have +5 to hit, they can flank for an extra +2. At 22 AC, which seems to be the highest among your group, that's a 30% chance to hit. Even for a "measly" 1d8+4 or so damage, that can add up to alot of damage.
Multiple monsters also allows you to threaten and scare your other players like the wizard and chain shirt cleric.
Before dismissing it out of hand, I'd give it a try for a few times.
You also could try "zerging" the party with a large number of CR 1 monsters. Ghouls are favorites for the paralysis ability. I know you have 2 clerics, but a few ghasts instead (advanced ghoul, which has stench ability) can be very very scary. Possibly include 6 advanced ghouls against the party, which would be a slightly above average challenge for the party, or for more fun go with 8. Make sure to use their sneaking ability and mob any obvious cleric. They definitely should win with their amount of channeling ability, but if even one paralysis check is failed you'll definitely scare them.