Flaming Sphere says "if it enters a space with a creature" and talks about targeting a creature. Maybe that's what your DM picked up on as in the Swarm description it says that it's immune to spells that target a specific number of creatures.
I think however, that it is more appropriate to look at the effect of Flaming Sphere: a 5ft diameter. Therefore it affects a 5ft area. If any part of the swarm are in that area they should be affected as technically, it is an area effect. Being an Evocation spell (that affects an area) it should deal +50% more damage IMO.
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From what I'm reading in the swarm rules, the part you're thinking of doesn't seem to be 'rules text', rather 'descriptive text'. Under the actual "Swarm Traits" section it says that swarms are immune to all weapon damage, and take an extra 50% damage if they're damaged with a spell that targets an area.
The flaming sphere isn't actually targeting the swarm, it's moving into a square with the creature in it.
For all intents and purposes, that spell seems to be a 5' square movable version of fireball that lasts for a few rounds.
I'd say if they fail the save, they take +50% damage.
Oddly enough, the Flaming Sphere mechanics work very similar to how the swarm attack works; although the flaming sphere provides for a reflex save whereas swarm attacks offer no save. Which makes me wonder if a swarm can damage another swarm? (I'd think yes.)
I'd certainly think it could work. You can specifically damage a swarm with a torch; how could a flaming ball of fire thats a few feet in diameter not damage a swarm when a little ol' torch can? I don't think I'd treat it as an area effect though, but flaming sphere has always been a bit problematic in its wording (i.e. if several tiny creatures are occupying the same square does the flaming sphere attack them all? or if a rather large and a rather small creature occupy the same square, could a flaming sphere damage both of them at once?)
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Flaming Sphere is one of those odd spells that needs a wee bit of clarification. It is very good to use against swarms since it is not a targeted spell, it's an Effect. The key phrase is "If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A swarm is a creature and all creatures have spaces. Thus the sphere moves into the Swarms space, stops and burns the swarm (or not if the Reflex save is successful).
Again though the Sphere is an Effect, not an Area spell. Target, Effect and Area are specific game terms about spells. Thus while it does harm the swarm it does not do +50% damage.
--Vodka on the Vrocks
There's nothing in the description of Flaming Sphere that says it wouldn't affect more than one creature who share a space (e.g. a Huge and a Tiny creature). So it should affect a swarm just fine.
Creative Director
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Swarms are tough enough as they are. They're basically immune to weapons.
Note, though, that spells are NOT weapons. A few of them mimic weapons (such as flame blade and spiritual weapon) but any spell effect that allows a reflex save to avoid damage (such as flaming sphere) is not one of those spells.
Flaming sphere should work VERY well on swarms, in other words.
And it also passes the common sense examination; a big ball of fire that rolls through a carpet of ants is going to mess those ants up.
Personally, I prefer the variant "chocolate sauce" sphere. Then you can eat the ants after you defeat them.
And it also passes the common sense examination; a big ball of fire that rolls through a carpet of ants is going to mess those ants up.
Thanks for the input James.
I will dare a slightly OT question: Will an alchemist's fire also be effective against a swarm?And how about a swarm of wasps?
Personally, I prefer the variant "chocolate sauce" sphere. Then you can eat the ants after you defeat them.
Ahh...the popular fondue line of spells.
My DM said they were broken :(
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And it also passes the common sense examination; a big ball of fire that rolls through a carpet of ants is going to mess those ants up.Thanks for the input James.
I will dare a slightly OT question: Will an alchemist's fire also be effective against a swarm?And how about a swarm of wasps?
I'm not James, but Splash Weapons create an AOE, albeit a small one. Alchemist's fire is a good way for a low-level party to deal with swarms.
I'm not James, but Splash Weapons create an AOE, albeit a small one. Alchemist's fire is a good way for a low-level party to deal with swarms.
And it also passes the common sense examination; a big ball of fire that rolls through a carpet of ants is going to mess those ants up.Thanks for the input James.
I will dare a slightly OT question: Will an alchemist's fire also be effective against a swarm?And how about a swarm of wasps?
The problem with the splash from alchemist's fire against swarms, is that it is only 1 hp dmg. The real dmg is targeted.
Would the swarm take only splash or would the AF be effective?
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The problem with the splash from alchemist's fire against swarms, is that it is only 1 hp dmg. The real dmg is targeted.Would the swarm take only splash or would the AF be effective?
Think of it like this: Your flask breaks when it hits something enough to break it. With a swarm, that's likely the ground. You don't have the guy now covered in flaming goo, you just have 'stuff around it' covered in not near as much flaming goo.
The problem with the splash from alchemist's fire against swarms, is that it is only 1 hp dmg. The real dmg is targeted.
Would the swarm take only splash or would the AF be effective?
I've always ruled that alchemist's fire and acid have full effect on a swarm. It only makes sense to me, considering that the fire damage from a flaming arrow (say) has full effect on a swarm.
Likewise, I rule that Acid Splash/Ray of Frost/Scorching Ray/etc. have full effect as well (but NOT Disintegrate, which explicitly "affects only one target per casting").
The problem with the splash from alchemist's fire against swarms, is that it is only 1 hp dmg. The real dmg is targeted.
Would the swarm take only splash or would the AF be effective?
I've always ruled that alchemist's fire and acid have full effect on a swarm. It only makes sense to me, considering that the fire damage from a flaming arrow (say) has full effect on a swarm.
Likewise, I rule that Acid Splash/Ray of Frost/Scorching Ray/etc. have full effect as well (but NOT Disintegrate, which explicitly "affects only one target per casting").
How does flaming arrow affect swarms smaller than tiny?
How does flaming arrow affect swarms smaller than tiny?
Oh, shoot. I forgot that the PFRPG Bestiary deleted that bit from the rules (inadvertantly, according to James Jacobs).
From the 3.5 swarm rules:
"Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:
A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks."
How does flaming arrow affect swarms smaller than tiny?Oh, shoot. I forgot that the PFRPG Bestiary deleted that bit from the rules (inadvertantly, according to James Jacobs).
From the 3.5 swarm rules:
"Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks."
If a lit lantern can be used to deal 1d4 damage, then surely a flask of alchemist's fire is a better weapon than a lantern. It should at least do it's 1d6 damage, though maybe not it's second round of burn damage.
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If a lit lantern can be used to deal 1d4 damage, then surely a flask of alchemist's fire is a better weapon than a lantern. It should at least do it's 1d6 damage, though maybe not it's second round of burn damage.
I've always had the alchemists fire stay in place, so if the swarm moves it doesn't go with it. That's not exactly in the rules but makes sense.
How does flaming arrow affect swarms smaller than tiny?Oh, shoot. I forgot that the PFRPG Bestiary deleted that bit from the rules (inadvertantly, according to James Jacobs).
From the 3.5 swarm rules:
"Vulnerabilities Of Swarms
Swarms are extremely difficult to fight with physical attacks. However, they have a few special vulnerabilities, as follows:A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit.
A weapon with a special ability such as flaming or frost deals its full energy damage with each hit, even if the weapon’s normal damage can’t affect the swarm.
A lit lantern can be used as a thrown weapon, dealing 1d4 points of fire damage to all creatures in squares adjacent to where it breaks."
Thanks, that was usefull. I'd better read swarms through one more time.