Determining a Spell's Area of Effect


Rules Questions


I'm looking at the grids on pg. 215 of the core rulebook, and am completely confused. For example, the two 30-foot cones look completely different, and I'm not getting the same results when I calculate the area of effect for either. Are the grid intersections the points where the two lines of one grid come together to form a letter 'V'?

Please help me if you can. Sorry for posting so often.

Contributor

Cones can't be perfect on a square grid. Just pick one, drop it on the map so its origin point is the corner of one of the caster's squares, and that's what area the spell effects.

To use computer terminology, the "hot spot" of the left cone template is the lower left corner of the gray shape, near the red dot that represents the caster. The "hot spot" of the right cone is the middle of the bottom of the gray shape, which is the upper right corner of the caster/red dot square.

Cast a cone spell, pick the cone shape you want, and put the "hot spot" of the cone on one of the corners of the caster's square, and that's where the cone effect is.


Well, the really easy answer, since you're just starting out with this, is to use the examples on page 215. Even if they don't make sense, use them anyway and don't worry about it too much.

There is also a description (which I think you've found) in Chapter 9, under "Area" that says the following:

Pathfinder core rulebook wrote:

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

You can count diagonally across a square, but remember that every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance. If the far edge of a square is within the spell's area, anything within that square is within the spell's area. If the spell's area only touches the near edge of a square, however, anything within that square is unaffected by the spell.

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.

And yes, a "grid intersection" is where a vertical line crosses a horizontal line on the grid making a "+" shape.

Following what this says, pick any corner of your square (that is the intersection). The cone does not start in your square; it starts in the next square. In the case of diagonal cones, this means the square diagonally next to you. In the case of horizontal or vertical cones, this means the cone starts in the TWO squares that are next to you that both touch the grid intersection you selected.

The two edges of a diagonal cone follow perfect horizontal & vertical lines away from their one starting square, so the area will form 1/4 of a circle. The two edges of a horizontal or vertical cone will follow perfect diagonal lines away from their two starting squares so that the area will form 1/4 of a circle.

Now to measure the 30' sides (or 15' or 60' or whatever), just count squares. Remember the rule that is quoted just above "every second diagonal counts as 2 squares of distance". So the first diagonal is 5', the next diagonal is 10' (total of 15' so far), the next diagonal is 5' (totaly of 20'), the next is 10' (total of 30') and so on. It's the Pythagorean Theorem on a battlegrid...

Once you have the sides measured, then the cone hits everything in between them. Even more precisely, you should find the end of the cone by counting squares again. Any space on the grid that you can reach by counting 6 squares (assuming 30' cone), still using the diagonal rule, will be hit. If it takes 7 squares to reach a space on the grid, then that space will not be hit. Of course, 15' cones use 3 squares, 60' cones use 12 squares, and so on.

Piece of cake, right?

Back to those templates. I can find two squares in each template that should be included if we use my long-winded explanation. So either my process is flawed, or their templates are. But, they're really close to the same thing so either one works for me.


Thanks, Sean.

And how can a line of effect go up one, go right one, then go up two, go right one, and finally go up one:

Quote:


X
XX
X
X
XX
X

as the one in the book?

EDIT: argh, how do I represent more than one space in this forum?


Thank you too, DM_Blake. I will bookmark this post.


Lunesta Lover wrote:

Thanks, Sean.

And how can a line of effect go up one, go right one, then go up two, go right one, and finally go up one?

I know what you mean, both about line and the awkwardness of diagramming on this forum...

It is very obvious, when we use a battlegrid, that a 30' line that goes N, E, S, or W, will go 6 squares in a straight line. It's also obvious, but maybe not quite as obvious, that a 30' line that goes NE, SE, SW, or NW will go 4 diagonal squars in a straight line (5' + 10' + 5' + 10' = 30').

But what if your enemies are not standing at perfect cardinal compass points? Their second example shows the line going 15' north then jogging one square to the east and finishing 30' north. This assumes they are shooting their spell at some target who is not exactly due north, but is standing one square away from due north. It's still 30' long, but it's just not perfectly lined up with the pretty squares on the grid,

Real battles in our world don't have the benefit of lines on the ground, and even though battles in Pathfinder do have the lines on the ground, the monsters don't always line themselves up in neat little rows.

Likewise, the 30' line that you mentioned in your post is 30' long and it is about halfway between due north and north-east, so call it "north by north east". That particular target was very rude and wasn't even standing next to a cardinal compass direction. :)


Lunesta Lover wrote:
Thank you too, DM_Blake. I will bookmark this post.

Bah!

Print them up; one day you can throw them into a book and make a profit selling The Collected Ramblings of Blake.

Dark Archive

With some minor psychic surgery, you can play D&D / Pathfinder pretty well on Hexes, instead of Squares. Cones and Bursts and Radius / Sphere effects work nicely on hex-grids. Square spell effects, such as a web or transmute rock to mud, tend to become annoying, 'though.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other, I'm afraid.


It gets even worse if your caster has a calculus background. By aiming up or down you can get many different variations of the conic shape. At the right upward angle you can even get a straight line effect on the ground. Things like that make GMs happy, right? :D


Aw, come on guys, Lunesta Lover is new here, let's not get too crazy with this stuff. Hex grids and calculus. Sheeeeeesh!

(both are correct, but I think that's not Basic Targeting 101; it's more like, well, calculus)


Sean K Reynolds wrote:
The "hot spot" of the right cone is the middle of the bottom of the gray shape, which is the upper right corner of the caster/red dot square

Note that the right-hand cone is not bilaterally symmetrical with respect to the "red dot square". Effectively, you can "mirror" he template, such that the red dot is beneath either the left or right lower "gray" square and the template still functions properly.

Put another way, since it comes from the corner and not the center of the caster's square, it is legal to "cheat" it either left or right.

DM_Blake wrote:
I can find two squares in each template that should be included if we use my long-winded explanation

I'm curious to know which two.

Lunesta Lover wrote:
And how can a line of effect go up one, go right one, then go up two, go right one, and finally go up one:

I disagree with the template you cited, which I believe has two extra squares improperly included in the AoE. IMO, it should lose one square from each of the "side-by-side" pairs.

TLO3 wrote:
At the right upward angle you can even get a straight line effect on the ground

45-degrees, right?

Rez

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The reasoning behind the way the area effects are shaped the way they are is because grids are squares, and when you measure distances by squares and go in a direction other than one of the four sides of a square, things get weird.

When tracking movement along the grids, remember that every 2nd diagonal movement counts as double. The spell areas are funny shaped because spell effects follow the same pattern when they count out distances from their points of origins.

The templates in the book are accurate, in other words, even though they look weird.

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