The bard's main role in combat is usually to buff his party with Inspire Courage, which is part of the Bardic Performance ability. However, a bard can Inspire Courage by using a Perform skill, which varies a lot from one bard to another. Some bards seem to have a huge advantage over other bards.
A bard that sings can be heard by his entire party and still fight while doing so, since his hands are free. However, a bard playing a flute can't have his hands free. Does that mean he has to keep playing for the entire fight? And what about dancers? They can't even be seen by the entire party while they fight, so it sounds like a very poor choice.
Some friend of mine had an idea that made sense. Let's say a bard playing the lute wants to Inspire Courage. He activates it with a simple action by playing a few notes with his lute and then, magically, the music keeps playing by itself like a live background music (if the bard can keep it going with a free action every round) until his Bardic Performance rounds are depleted. This makes sense and fits with the "bardic music being magic" pattern.
Still, a dancer bard sucks when it comes to Inspiring Courage, right?
Still, a dancer bard sucks when it comes to Inspiring Courage, right?
Actually, they can perform in areas of silence wich is great for melee bards. And about fluff, do you remember that Dervish PRC?
Percusion, String, Wind and Keyboard are generrally subpar, unless your bard is spellcasting focused in wich case its virtually indiferent.
Humbly,
Yawar
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I disagree; if you're strictly based on support they are great, because unlike oratory/dance, you can masterwork an instrument and get +2 to any performance-related items (countersong etc). If you're not an archer or combat build, instruments are a great choice.
For combat builds, oratory is usually considered best. Not only is it one of the ones that makes a non-cha skill (sense motive) a good cha based skill, it also keeps your hands free and keeps working out of line of site.
Dance is there for silent inspirations and so you can cast and inspire. It also gives you bonuses that are not cha based; though dex is usually better than Wis for bards. So all 3 have their uses; by 10th level you should typically pick one of each.
I don't know which Dervish PRC you're talking about, but it's true that instruments give a +2 when their quality allows it. They still seem underpowered to me, but I guess a bard that can't sing, act or make speeches can hardly inspire courage. Thank you for your answers.
Keep in mind that, at least in Pathfinder, you'll typically start off with two different types of perform, and will most likely grab at least another one as you go alone. That's a good number to choose from.
In 3.5, the Sublime Chord and Lyric Thaumatauge PrCs opened the way for caster bards that frankly couldn't care less about needing an open hand when they could cast through their instruments.
You can see dancers. I don't know why you think dancing turns you invisible, but I assure you it isn't true.
I mean, Pathfinder doesn't even have facing. So everyone's always looking in the direction of the dancing bard. (as well as in every other direction, but whatever)
Not to highjack but; Am I reading/understanding correctly that Inspire Courage now affects only the bard's allies and not the bard him/herself?
Only if you completely ignore this part:
"A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance."
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Not to highjack but; Am I reading/understanding correctly that Inspire Courage now affects only the bard's allies and not the bard him/herself?Only if you completely ignore this part:
"A 1st level bard can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to perceive the bard’s performance. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 5th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +4 at 17th level. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability. Inspire courage can use audible or visual components. The bard must choose which component to use when starting his performance."
Wow, not sure how I missed that. Thanks!
Let's not forget Oratory, Acting, and... Comedy.
Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
Seriously, acting sounds like the most broken of the possible choices. Is that silent-acting, like Charlie Chaplin, or spoken acting like modern actors? Actually, the Tom Hanks movie "Castaway" has large sections of acting with no spoken words, so perhaps "modern" isn't the right word to use. Conventional, maybe?
Maybe this should be a rule's question.
Not to de-rail the thread, but I always thought Bluff should be part of the Perform (acting) skill. I mean, Pathfinder was consolidating skills anyway, and the two skills are certainly related. Any time you lie, you are going to try and act like you are telling the truth.
For example: Was Tiger Woods "bluffing" his wife, or "acting" like nothing was going on? Is a criminal "bluffing" the police, or "acting" innocent? Is a spy "bluffing" the guards in a restricted area, or "acting" like he belongs there?
As James specified in a similar topic a few days ago, maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so no matter the type it doesn't restrict the use of your hands.
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Acting switch-hitting wouldn't matter. I can dance even without levels in perform (dance); basically I just choose "sound" or "movement". The best perform skills are those that offer non-Cha based skills into cha via versitile (Oratory and Dance) or handy ones that use an instrument (I like String) so you can get Versitile bonuses off your masterworked instrument (though this is far worse for the Combat Bard).
As James specified in a similar topic a few days ago, maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so no matter the type it doesn't restrict the use of your hands.
Except for the fact that you must maintain the performance, and many instruments require you to hold or the use of your hands.
Try having a Bard in the party with Perform (mime) and Perform (bagpipes)...
Let's not forget Oratory, Acting, and... Comedy.
Nyuk nyuk nyuk.
Seriously, acting sounds like the most broken of the possible choices. Is that silent-acting, like Charlie Chaplin, or spoken acting like modern actors? Actually, the Tom Hanks movie "Castaway" has large sections of acting with no spoken words, so perhaps "modern" isn't the right word to use. Conventional, maybe?
Maybe this should be a rule's question.
Not to de-rail the thread, but I always thought Bluff should be part of the Perform (acting) skill. I mean, Pathfinder was consolidating skills anyway, and the two skills are certainly related. Any time you lie, you are going to try and act like you are telling the truth.
For example: Was Tiger Woods "bluffing" his wife, or "acting" like nothing was going on? Is a criminal "bluffing" the police, or "acting" innocent? Is a spy "bluffing" the guards in a restricted area, or "acting" like he belongs there?
Actually, in a way, it is, at least for Bards. Page 38:
Versatile Performance (Ex): At 2nd level, a bard can choose one type of Perform skill. He can use his bonus in that skill in place of his bonus in associated skills. When substituting in this way, the bard uses his total Perform skill bonus, including class skill bonus, in place of its associated skill's bonus, whether or not he has ranks in that skill or if it is a class skill. At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the bard can select an additional type of Perform to substitute.
The types of Perform and their associated skills are: Act (Bluff, Disguise), Comedy (Bluff, Intimidate), Dance (Acrobatics, Fly), Keyboard Instruments (Diplomacy, Intimidate), Oratory (Diplomacy, Sense Motive), Percussion (Handle Animal, Intimidate), Sing (Bluff, Sense Motive), String (Bluff, Diplomacy), and Wind (Diplomacy, Handle Animal).
(Bold added by me)
And it makes sense. In 3.5, I'd have argued for a synergy bonus, one way or the other.
But while Bluffing is PART of acting, from the standpoint of the perormance skill, I can tell you, having acted myself, that there's a lot more to it. There's line memorization, blocking (where and how you stand, move, and face yourself on the stage in relationship to the other actors as well as the props), projection... the list goes on.
Side note: A bard who uses an instrument can benefit from the +2 bonus from having a masterwork instrument. Also, there are magical instruments that can increase this bonus or add other bonuses to the performance.
Side note: A bard who uses an instrument can benefit from the +2 bonus from having a masterwork instrument. Also, there are magical instruments that can increase this bonus or add other bonuses to the performance.
One of the things I miss from 3.5 is the alternative benefits of MW that varied by instrument presented in Sound and Silence.
Side note: A bard who uses an instrument can benefit from the +2 bonus from having a masterwork instrument. Also, there are magical instruments that can increase this bonus or add other bonuses to the performance.One of the things I miss from 3.5 is the alternative benefits of MW that varied by instrument presented in Sound and Silence.
You can still allow it in campaigns, you just can't use it in PFS.
Good point.
As James specified in a similar topic a few days ago, maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so no matter the type it doesn't restrict the use of your hands.Except for the fact that you must maintain the performance, and many instruments require you to hold or the use of your hands.
Except that James Jacobs, the Paizo Creative Director, said so right here, and he didn't make any exceptions.
So apparently Pathfinder bards can somehow manage to maintain a performance that seems to require two hads, and still do so as a free action, and still do so while in combat, even if he's using both hands to fight.
As James specified in a similar topic a few days ago, maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so no matter the type it doesn't restrict the use of your hands.Except for the fact that you must maintain the performance, and many instruments require you to hold or the use of your hands.Except that James Jacobs, the Paizo Creative Director, said so right here, and he didn't make any exceptions.
So apparently Pathfinder bards can somehow manage to maintain a performance that seems to require two hads, and still do so as a free action, and still do so while in combat, even if he's using both hands to fight.
And that in no way negates what I said. He says that they can maintain the performance as a free action. He does not say they can do this without using their hands or somehow actually playing the instrument.
The post you link to doesn't say anything about whether or not it restricts the use of your hands; it just says that it's a free action.
I read it as you need to have the intrument in your hands at some point during the turn so that you can use the free action to sustain the performance.
But maybe he meant that you can take the free action to sustain the performance as long as you're in proximity to the instrument without actually having to get it into your hands again.
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And that in no way negates what I said. He says that they can maintain the performance as a free action. He does not say they can do this without using their hands or somehow actually playing the instrument.As James specified in a similar topic a few days ago, maintaining a bardic performance is a free action, so no matter the type it doesn't restrict the use of your hands.Except for the fact that you must maintain the performance, and many instruments require you to hold or the use of your hands.Except that James Jacobs, the Paizo Creative Director, said so right here, and he didn't make any exceptions.
So apparently Pathfinder bards can somehow manage to maintain a performance that seems to require two hads, and still do so as a free action, and still do so while in combat, even if he's using both hands to fight.
Actually, James talked about this a lot in the Paizo chat last night. He indicated that even if a Bard specializes in Perform (string) or Perform (wind) or whatever, they don't actually have to use that Perform in combat. Perform can be used untrained, so *any* bard can sing and dance for their Inspire Courage even if they are specialized in something else.
He went on to say that if the Bard wants to, they could even start combat by playing their guitar or whatever and then keep up the music 'magically' because they're Bards. Maybe their spellcasting weaves the music in despite the instrument not being directly played, maybe the sound of their rapier striking sounds like a flute, who knows.
In any event, the main impression was that all Bards *are* created equal, and should be so in combat. It is always a free action to maintain your Perform, no matter what instrument you might be using, and you should be able to fight/spellcast normally as a result.
(if someone can post the chat log here too that would help)
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Actually, Perform (Dance) is all fine and dandy because there's no facing in Pathfinder. So, even if all of your allies are surrounding an enemy and totally not focused on you, as long as they have line of sight (which just means nothing blocking sight, like intervening barriers or darkness) then they can still benefit from their belly-dancer in the back.
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Perform can be attempted untrained. Bardic performance does not stipulate that you have to use a perform skill that you have ranks in. A lot of times you will need to use a ranked one because the result of your perform check will determine the effect (countersong, distraction, etc). Inspire Courage is not one of those situations. You could still pull if off even if you had 0 ranks in perform. The ability to use it is just determined by your bard level.
So just use oratory or sing when inspiring courage thereby keeping your hands free for other things. Break out your instrument for special effects.
EDIT: Karui Kage was posting the same thing while I left my post window opened. But, yeah. I do this with my bard as it seems way less cheesy than opening every fight with a rousing flute tune. He breaks that out when he needs enhanced music to break an enchantment or whatever.
Creative Director
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It's true. While the bardic performance ability and the Perform skill are both closely related... they aren't co-dependant. Think of it as similar to the relationship between spellcasting and the Spellcraft skill. You can still cast spells if you don't have ranks in Spellcraft.
From a roleplaying viewpoint, it makes sense that a bard who has ranks in specific Perform skills will want to use those performances to add flavor to his bardic performance ability to describe and represent what his bardic performance actually looks like... but he doesn't actually ever NEED ranks in a Perform skill to use bardic performance. He only ever needs to make a Perform check for a few of his specialized bardic performance skills (such as countersong or distraction) but he can do that EVEN if he has no ranks in a particular Perform check. He'll just create a better result if he uses a check he's really good at is all.
For things like fascinate, inspire courage, inspire competence, and most other bardic performance abilities, the Perform skill doesn't interact with the bardic performance at all.
If you have a bard with 20 ranks in Perform (keyboard), you can STILL use inspire courage on the battle field to grant bonuses to allies and keep fighting or spellcasting yourself. You aren't actually playing the piano while you're fighting or spellcasting just because your best Perform skill happens to be Perform (keyboard).
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You aren't actually playing the piano while you're fighting or spellcasting just because your best Perform skill happens to be Perform (keyboard).
Speak for yourself, that would be epic :P
I can see it now, with a wave of his hand he conjures a grand piano and starts playing a classical score as soon as the fight breaks out.
You aren't actually playing the piano while you're fighting or spellcasting just because your best Perform skill happens to be Perform (keyboard).Speak for yourself, that would be epic :P
I can see it now, with a wave of his hand he conjures a grand piano and starts playing a classical score as soon as the fight breaks out.
I figured he'd be playing Elton Johns "Saturday Night's Alright (For Fighting)".
But while Bluffing is PART of acting, from the standpoint of the perormance skill, I can tell you, having acted myself, that there's a lot more to it. There's line memorization, blocking (where and how you stand, move, and face yourself on the stage in relationship to the other actors as well as the props), projection... the list goes on.
I agree. That's why I said I thought it should be a part of (a portion, piece, or subset of) Perform (acting).
However, being the devil's advocate, there is also a lot more to bluffing than just stating a lie. There is body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. If bluffing was ONLY telling lies, then using the bluff skill in combat would be a little strange. Just imagine...
That said, I completely agree with you that bluffing is only a portion of acting. The point of my tangent was that they are very similar skills, and indeed overlap in many aspects, and that the two skills could have been combined as other skills have been.
I figured he'd be playing Elton Johns "Saturday Night's Alright (For Fighting)".You aren't actually playing the piano while you're fighting or spellcasting just because your best Perform skill happens to be Perform (keyboard).Speak for yourself, that would be epic :P
I can see it now, with a wave of his hand he conjures a grand piano and starts playing a classical score as soon as the fight breaks out.
Great Balls of Fire - Jerry Lee Lewis
Is it not badass to have a stacatto like beat rhythmically inspiring your allies, all from the cracking and popping of your dual wielded whips?
ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?
No, but in the hands of the RIGHT character, perhaps aroused....
But while Bluffing is PART of acting, from the standpoint of the perormance skill, I can tell you, having acted myself, that there's a lot more to it. There's line memorization, blocking (where and how you stand, move, and face yourself on the stage in relationship to the other actors as well as the props), projection... the list goes on.
I agree. That's why I said I thought it should be a part of (a portion, piece, or subset of) Perform (acting).
However, being the devil's advocate, there is also a lot more to bluffing than just stating a lie. There is body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. If bluffing was ONLY telling lies, then using the bluff skill in combat would be a little strange. Just imagine...
That said, I completely agree with you that bluffing is only a portion of acting. The point of my tangent was that they are very similar skills, and indeed overlap in many aspects, and that the two skills could have been combined as other skills have been.
Hmmm.... I suppose the point could be made. But then, Diplomacy is a part of Oatory. Acrobatics is part of Dnce. To go beyond the social skills, Handle Animal is part of Ride. Just how much streamlining do you want to do by combining skills? How much of it is the actual subskills used, and how much is the difference in situations in which each is used? There's a balance between having too many skills combined into one, and losing detail and flavor, or what is often called in wargaming circles "granularity", otr on the other hand, becoming SO fine-grained that you bog the mechanics down. I think PF does a pretty damn fine job of striking that balance.
Great Balls of Fire - Jerry Lee LewisI figured he'd be playing Elton Johns "Saturday Night's Alright (For Fighting)".You aren't actually playing the piano while you're fighting or spellcasting just because your best Perform skill happens to be Perform (keyboard).Speak for yourself, that would be epic :P
I can see it now, with a wave of his hand he conjures a grand piano and starts playing a classical score as soon as the fight breaks out.
Blinded By The Light -- Manfred Mann
Didn't you guys realize that in the hands of us bards all instruments gain a sustain effect? Seriously, we just tear off a mad riff and then rock on with it — piece of cake!