Yet Another Bard Question


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


I'm fairly new to Pathfinder -- I'm playing in my first Pathfinder campaign, and we're only up to Level 2. I've played D&D for years and years, but Pathfinder definitely opens up new possibilities, and I was hoping for input regarding one of my 2 characters: My bard.

Let me preface this by saying that what I'm NOT looking for is a way to make hin a party buffer or a combat bard -- the party is well-mixed enough that that is not his primary function, and in fact the rest of the party has no problem getting between him and the enemy. Nor is the the (as someone put it in another thread) a prancing lute kinda guy.

What drew him to the bardic profession most was his love of knowledge annd his way with people. He's a half-elf, and his L1 feat is skill focus (Knwoledge: History) and his racial bonus skill focus is Perform Oratory, with his level 2 versatile performer going into Perform: Oratory, so he already has some really wicked rolls for those two skills as well as Diplomacy and Sense Motive. He's already found himself thrust into the role of party leader outside of combat. What I envisioned for him is a sort of power broker, half diplomat and half kingmaker, a trusted advisor to those in powerful positions, the power behind the throne. The Prestige Class Pathfinder Chronicler seems well-suited for that, but I was wondering if anyone had any other suggestions for feats, thir party (3.5) material, etc. with good input for him. I was disappointed with both Song & Silence AND Mongoose' Quintessential Bard II when it comes to this particular angle on the bard.

Thoughts?


What confuses me about your post are the parameters of your request. Clearly, your out-of-combat role is already defined for you and you have a good handle on that.

In combat however, you've asked for suggestions, but placed the following caveat - that you don't want a "combat bard" or "party buffer".

These are the two primary things a bard does in combat. You've claimed that those aren't his primary function in combat because of a "well mixed" group.

Your out of combat role is clear enough. Take knowledges (at least one rank in each - then use Bardic Knowledge and loremaster to know everything about everything) your Oratory already gives you diplomacy and sense motive - maybe pick up bluff and a decent Charisma and your out of combat role is realized. Done.

What do you envision his in-combat role to be?

Understand that asking what to do with a Bard in combat without engaging in the combat or buffing the party is akin to asking what to do with a Wizard in combat when you don't envision the character casting spells.

Sovereign Court

It sounds like you have a clear party role, and it sounds like you are already RPing the half diplomat half kingmaker you have in mind.

You don't need a PrC to define your character (although I am curious as to what you picked for your second class); its already pretty well defined. Pick your spells carefully, and for your next versatile performance and skill focus go with acting- if anyone is a true actor a diplomat is- and it goes awesomely with Oratory in that it covers 2 other social skills you will want for your concept.

If you are really focused on the knowledge stuff, consider Loremaster (but be aware its barely changed since 3.5 and is still terrible mechanically...)


The Bard is a fairly flexible class so you can play it a number of different ways. Going on your post it looks like you're after mechancis to suit your characters personality and give you options. So going on that the big question is how do you think your character would approach combats? Does the character see magic is a primary weapon or more of a handy fallback option and for utility?

I'm playing a drow bard and his personality is a cautious and methodical so he prizes knowledge. For that reason I've gone Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion. It's 3.5 material so if you're looking at it you'd need to run it by your DM first. Because of his careful nature rather than being in the thick of it he tends to lurk at the back and fringes. During my turns I always consider positioning and take care to make sure he's in the best spot to make his attacks (spells or bow) while not leaving him open. When picking targets he tends to avoid targets that he can't drop quickly. Those he can't drop, he uses magic to take them out of the fight or reduce their effectiveness. I've had him take the Harmonic Spell so he gets his Inspire Courage going when he casts a spell. When needed he'll cast invisibility on himself and move in to heal his frontline (aka the fighter and barbarian).

He's just hit L5 so I don't have too much in the way of options yet, but as my spell list opens up he's starting to influence combat more. Hideous Laughter has been a real treat. I don't know what you're looking at long term with the character, but his one is going the Lyric Thaumaturge and Sublime Chord route. I recommend Treantmonk's Guide to Bards as it runs through the different styles and the pathfinder options to support it. Note that its Pathfinder material only so it doesn't include the massive amount of 3.5 options that are out there. If your DM allows 3.5 in PF then you'll find the Bard to be very flexible in what you can do with it.


Treantmonk wrote:

What confuses me about your post are the parameters of your request. Clearly, your out-of-combat role is already defined for you and you have a good handle on that.

In combat however, you've asked for suggestions, but placed the following caveat - that you don't want a "combat bard" or "party buffer".

These are the two primary things a bard does in combat. You've claimed that those aren't his primary function in combat because of a "well mixed" group.

Your out of combat role is clear enough. Take knowledges (at least one rank in each - then use Bardic Knowledge and loremaster to know everything about everything) your Oratory already gives you diplomacy and sense motive - maybe pick up bluff and a decent Charisma and your out of combat role is realized. Done.

What do you envision his in-combat role to be?

Understand that asking what to do with a Bard in combat without engaging in the combat or buffing the party is akin to asking what to do with a Wizard in combat when you don't envision the character casting spells.

Sorry, allow me to redefine my parameters and perhaps that will make my question less confusing:

What seems clear to you I was unsure of: How well I've a handle on my out-of combat role. I was seeking more out-of-combat advice than in-combat. Do I have all my bases covered?

As for in-combat, you're right, he's pretty useless, but given the nature of the campaign, his out-of-combat usefulness makes up for that. Sorry if I made it sound like I wanted combat advice.

However, now that you mention it, I suppose I should think a little bit about making him a bit more of an asset in combat, and if I wantt o stay true to the overall character concept, Buffer does seem more in line with that than combat bard. He doesn't hesitate to use Inspire Courage, but he has only one spell that could be considered useful before, during, or after a fight.


Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

It sounds like you have a clear party role, and it sounds like you are already RPing the half diplomat half kingmaker you have in mind.

You don't need a PrC to define your character (although I am curious as to what you picked for your second class); its already pretty well defined. Pick your spells carefully, and for your next versatile performance and skill focus go with acting- if anyone is a true actor a diplomat is- and it goes awesomely with Oratory in that it covers 2 other social skills you will want for your concept.

If you are really focused on the knowledge stuff, consider Loremaster (but be aware its barely changed since 3.5 and is still terrible mechanically...)

Thanks, it sounds like people think I'm already on the right track out of combat.

I don't want a PrC to DEFINE my concept so much as one that SUPPORTS the definition I already have. Loremaster seemed attractive at first, except for the fact that I'd have to use up 3 feats oin metamagic or item creation. The Pathfinder Chronicler seems better suited, not only because of the continued buffing of Knowledge skills, but because of the influential nature of it -- the Whispering Campaign feature, in particular, seems right up his alley.

I am afraid my spell choices have been a bit haphazard, the bard's casting ability was on the bottom of the list of the reasons I chose the class. As for his second class, I must admit I had a hard time deciding, and eventually chose rogue, though I'm thinking now I shouls have gone with Wizard, and picked up one or two levels in the Enchantment School.

And yeah, I think you're right about Acting being his next versatile performance.


If your looking for him to be helpful in combat, there are some options that can keep you not being the primary attacker but still useful to your friends. Demoralize is a lot of fun, and utalizes intimidate. It gives opponents -2 to their attacks and saves and you don't need anything to just use it. You can pick up the dazzling display feat to do it to a group at lvl 5.

Greater feint could also work, making opponents flat footed so your friends can attack them easier. Combat expertise, the prereq, can offset the Bard's traditionally lower AC. It takes a while to get the 6BAB prereq though.


@Caineach

Combat expertise actually sounds lie a great idea, thanks.


I'm sort of surprised that Treantmonk didn't link you to his handy Bard guide. If you aren't want to deal damage in combat or specialize in casting spells, you might look to the "controller" build. Use the combat expertise feat that Cainreach recommends, but take trip and disarm instead. (Feint only makes them flat-footed to you, not your allies.) Tripping an enemy gives your buddies all sorts of bonuses to hit and affords AoOs when the poor sap tries to stand up. Disarming someone with a weapon essentially makes them useless, unless you DM equips all his baddies with backup weapons.


Mauril wrote:
I'm sort of surprised that Treantmonk didn't link you to his handy Bard guide. If you aren't want to deal damage in combat or specialize in casting spells, you might look to the "controller" build. Use the combat expertise feat that Cainreach recommends, but take trip and disarm instead. (Feint only makes them flat-footed to you, not your allies.) Tripping an enemy gives your buddies all sorts of bonuses to hit and affords AoOs when the poor sap tries to stand up. Disarming someone with a weapon essentially makes them useless, unless you DM equips all his baddies with backup weapons.

Greater Feint makes them flat footed to your allies. Improved feint just makes them flat footed to you for a move action. They rely on your bluff check. Trip and Disarm are both really nice, but rely on you to be able to beat your opponents CMD, which is really tough for a non-melee focused Bard. You need a decent str to do it at all, and your at a major disadvantage against full BAB classes. Feint on the other hand plays to the talky bard's strengths.

The Exchange

Well, Inspire courage gives a bonus to CMB, as would Knowledge Devotion were he to take it, not to mention the +2 from Improved Trip/Disarm. Also, tripping/disarming pays off much earlier than Feinting does, since the bard doesn't have anything that relies on his opponents being denied their dex. Plus, bards get the Whip proficiency, which does wonders for the tripping/disarming since you can do it from up to 15ft away. Hell, most of the time you don't even have to worry about getting the improved trip/disarm feats for the AoO if you have a decent enough CMB.


@Cainreach: You're right. I was thinking of Improved Feint not Greater Feint. Still, that's three feats invested (five levels for a bard) to get a trick while you can start tripping and disarming right out of the box and two of the three feats make you even better at it.


Why don't you pick up Hideous Laughter? This spell is first level for bards. It has no HD cap, so it remains reasonably effective until you're fairly high level.

Ken


MultiClassClown wrote:

Sorry, allow me to redefine my parameters and perhaps that will make my question less confusing:

What seems clear to you I was unsure of: How well I've a handle on my out-of combat role. I was seeking more out-of-combat advice than in-combat. Do I have all my bases covered?

As for in-combat, you're right, he's pretty useless, but given the nature of the campaign, his out-of-combat usefulness makes up for that. Sorry if I made it sound like I wanted combat advice.

However, now that you mention it, I suppose I should think a little bit about making him a bit more of an asset in combat, and if I wantt o stay true to the overall character concept, Buffer does seem more in line with that than combat bard. He doesn't hesitate to use Inspire Courage, but he has only one spell that could be considered useful before, during, or after a fight.

Thanks - that's definitely more clear now. Based on that I do have some suggestions:

1) I wouldn't PrC at all. Bards are a TERRIFIC choice for party leader/ depth of knowledge type characters - really - that's exactly what they do best. PrC'ing is really going to take you away from that specialty - not move you towards it. Things like Bardic Knowledge and Loremaster improve with Bard levels.

2) For knowledges - I recommend one rank in each. Bards get lots of skills - but at the end of the day you will wish you had more - trust me. One rank in all knowledges gives you a base of 4 (1 rank + 3 class skill bonus) - then you add your Int bonus, half your Bard level - and pretty soon you can take 20!

I've used this hypothetical before, but I'll use it again. Consider your 10th level Bard in the forest and your DM asks for a Knowledge Nature roll. The Druid beside you smirks - after all, he's got 10 ranks, +3 class skill bonus, +2 Nature sense bonus, and has Skill Focus (Knowledge nature) - he rolls a 11 (average) giving him 29.

Then you have your 1 rank, no skill focus, +3 class skill bonus, +5 Bardic Knowledge - then you use your loremaster ability to take 20. Your total - 29. You tie on average. Not bad.

If you like the skill focus you currently have for flavor reasons - by all means enjoy - just be aware you don't NEED it to get great Knowledge (history) results.

3) Oratory should cover Diplomacy and Sense Motive already (I assume you are working off a pretty decent CHA score) - which gives you a great starting point to be party "face". Bards are inherently suited to this role above any other class because of the nice skill set, abilities like suggestion, and CHA based abilities. I would recommend at least bluff as well. This should give you a chance to pick up some other skills to round out your abilities. Perception is always useful, Use Magic Device is a special treat, Stealth is useful to have as well. An extra perform or two will have you prepared when more versatile performance abilities come up.

4) I realize that creating a combat based character is not your primary concern, but challenges and CR's are really based on the assumption that all characters are contributing in combat - and there is really no reason you shouldn't. Being helpful in combat in no way is going to compromise your character concept. Inspire courage is a given, but I would pick up some nice helpful spells as well, Good Hope, Haste, Glitterdust, Grease, or even the Charm spells can be helpful in combat. After all - your role outside of combat really doesn't require much in the way of spells - so why not pick and use good ones for combat?

5) Finally, grab a weapon. If your character isn't buff, and you haven't grabbed combat based feats - then pick up a shortbow at least. Firing some arrows into combat can make a real difference, especially when you are low on spells. You benefit from your own buffs (like inspire courage) which can make your contribution worthwhile even if it isn't your central focus.

Hope that helps.


double post


Just wanna add my agreement to point number 5 of treantmonks. I found the bard to be a bit frustrating when it came to combat until I got a bow. Started to have a lot more impact once I was taking pot shots from the fringes. Plus it meant I didn't have to be up in the middle of the action with my average AC and HPs.

If you're looking for noncombat related improvements then its probably best to focus on making the most of Versatile Performance. I've gone Perform Oratory as it gives you Sense Motive and Diplomacy which are two great skills. For level 6 I'm looking at Perform Act for Disguise and Bluff. Now I know they're both class skills already and use the Bard's best attribute score, but I figure that given I want both to be good I'm freeing up ranks to spend elsewhere. I'd also look at Perform Comedy which does Bluff and Intimidate or Perform Dance if you expect to use Acrobatics a lot or Fly. The best thing (as pointed out above) is that you can throw one rank in these skills and with your Charisma and the +3 class bonus ride on that until you can take Versatile Performance. Shame the rules don't say you get those spent ranks back...


Alchemy
Buy a bunch of Acid Flasks, Alchemist's Fire, Holy Water, Smoke Sticks, Tanglefoot Bags, Thunder Stones, Caltrops and any other mundane items that you can use against your enemies. Some of these are very useful. Some of these suck but at least you're doing something. Plus it's fun when something mundane wins the day.

PC: "I splash holy water in the vampires face"
DM: "Um...he turns into a puff of gas. He was down to 1 HP."

Use Magic Device
This one skill, that you should be really good with already, can turn a basic commoner into a useful addition to the group. You won't be as powerful as a magic user but hey, it only costs you one of your skill points per level and you're good to go. One of my favorite tactics is to special order items that grant skill bonuses to uncustomary skills. UMD was certainly a must have for every Warlock character that I ever played and is a good fit for a non-combat Bard as well.

Level 6: +6 ranks, +3 class skill, +4 CHA, +5 Bracelet of Magic Manipulation (enhancement to UMD, 2500gp) = +18

You're one level away from being able to use wands without even rolling. Could've had it at level 5 or maybe even before with a feat that boosts UMD.

Rod of Wonder
At least make some grass grow while you're not doing anything else. Every once in a while, you'll even throw a Fireball or Lightning Bolt.

Have fun. There's always something to do during battle. Every little bit helps.


Thanks to everyone for their input, especially Treantmonk (and thanks for the image your name conjure. LOL). A couple of responses:

Treantmonk:

1) I'll definitely consider what you said about PrC -- I have time to play him as a straight bard and see how that goes before committing to a PrC. I see your point, and while I'm not 100% convinced, I'm leaning towards your opinion.

2)Agreed regarding as many of the knowledge skills as possible. The focus on history is campaign-specific.

3) CHA 18. So yeah, he definitely has the Face going for him. He is maxed in Oratory, and has points in Stringed, but that's also for campaign-specific reasons, and you can bet after this dialogue he'll be working on Act as well.

4) Point well made. I didn't INTENTIONALLY make him combat-averse, I was just so focused on character concept, that combat effectiveness became an afterthought. Thanks for the spell ideas.

5) I definitely intend on getting him a weapon -- though his DEX isn't that great (I focused on CHA, WIS, and INT). I'll probably grab a bow, but I'm also wqorking on getting my DM (Do we still use that term) to let me use Genius' "Weapon Trickery" feat -- esentially Weapon Finesse, but using CHA instead of DEX.

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