Hi folks, here is a couple of questions:
The spell ventriloquism can that be used for making the verbal component of a spell? During our session my bard used ventriloquism several times, in order to camouflage his spellcasting, making the verbal component appear 40 ft away, which effectively turned all spells to silent spells. If the above is legal, will it enable the bard to cast spells while standing in a silence spell, since he can throw his voice outside the silence spell.
A side question to the above is, can ghost sound be used in the same way?
The next question; is a ray considered a weapon, specifically regarding the inspire courage ability from bards, which gives a +2 to all weapon dmg rolls.
Another question; we found that a very effective combat opener was for the arcane trickster to start combat with a scorching ray which my bard had readied a pyrotechnic spell on. Can me and my allies close our eyes, at the moment the pyrotecnics is fired, since we know that it is coming?
What about mid combat, will my allies have time to close their eyes if i scream pyrotecnics and blast away?
Finally our gamemaster thinks that all the detect spells are too powerfull. (we use detect magic through the whole treehouse in order to see any magic items inside and see if anyone is moving around. And to negate any magic traps whose aura hasn't been hidden.) Have you guys ran into the same problems with detect spells? and how have you handled it?
Hi folks, here is a couple of questions:
The spell ventriloquism can that be used for making the verbal component of a spell? During our session my bard used ventriloquism several times, in order to camouflage his spellcasting, making the verbal component appear 40 ft away, which effectively turned all spells to silent spells. If the above is legal, will it enable the bard to cast spells while standing in a silence spell, since he can throw his voice outside the silence spell.
A side question to the above is, can ghost sound be used in the same way?
The next question; is a ray considered a weapon, specifically regarding the inspire courage ability from bards, which gives a +2 to all weapon dmg rolls.
Another question; we found that a very effective combat opener was for the arcane trickster to start combat with a scorching ray which my bard had readied a pyrotechnic spell on. Can me and my allies close our eyes, at the moment the pyrotecnics is fired, since we know that it is coming?
What about mid combat, will my allies have time to close their eyes if i scream pyrotecnics and blast away?Finally our gamemaster thinks that all the detect spells are too powerfull. (we use detect magic through the whole treehouse in order to see any magic items inside and see if anyone is moving around. And to negate any magic traps whose aura hasn't been hidden.) Have you guys ran into the same problems with detect spells? and how have you handled it?
Ventriloquism to cast verbal spells I would say no.
Closing eyes again no. Are you sure everyone closed eyes at that exact moment of casting? Did everyone hear you? A good idea but not supported by the rules and a bit cheesy. A combat round is six seconds and a lot of flaling about happens during that time which is abstracted to a couple of "to hit" rolls, etc. If I had players who insisted on doing this then my GM run NPCs would do it and I would impose a blindness penalty too.Detect Magic? Not an issue. If you want to slow the game to a crawl go a head, remember Concentration checks and while you're scanning a room anything alerted to your presence will on you like a ton of bricks. It has never been an issue for me as a GM or player. Remember thickness of material to block D.Magic, etc as can thin lead sheeting.
Ventriloquism to cast verbal spells I would say no.
Closing eyes again no. Are you sure everyone closed eyes at that exact moment of casting? Did everyone hear you? A good idea but not supported by the rules and a bit cheesy. A combat round is six seconds and a lot of flaling about happens during that time which is abstracted to a couple of "to hit" rolls, etc. If I had players who insisted on doing this then my GM run NPCs would do it and I would impose a blindness penalty too.
Detect Magic? Not an issue. If you want to...
Detect magic can scan a whole house in less than a minute, and since it can penetrate up to 3 feet of tree it would have no problem penetrating every single wall in a house made of tree.
As to the pyrotecnics our line of thoughts is that the one who does the scorching ray will take aim, fire and immediatly close his eyes. The second I see fire I will fire my pyrotecnics, and immediatly close my eyes.
Ventriloquism as the name suggests needs a source of sound to be effective it projects that sound elsewhere. In a silence there is no sound source and the spell fails. You maye able to cast it in a silenced area but would be ineffective.
Pyrotechnics immediatly causes the source to cause fireworks etc. so if you used a Scorching Ray as the fire source it (the ray) wouldn't do damage (because it has been used as a fire source) or will cause damage and be unavailable to be used as a fire source for the Pyrotechnics spell.
If it was possible to do what you suggest I'm sure that game designers would have thought of doing it and in all the scenarios, rules books, etc. I have seen it has never been mentioned. The rules of the game don't support the idea so still no.
Detect Magic is blocked by 3' of wood, 1' of stone or a thin sheet of lead. In one round you can detect magic in an area and after three round you can pinpoint. If the aura source is moving then you would detect it but not pinpoint it. In your example if the magical item was being worn buy somebody moving about then you would detect it but would not be able to say exactly where it was. Its a standard tactic and really doesn't create a problem. As a GM you either accept it or be an ar$e and make all walls 1' 1" thick if stone or 3' 1" thick if wood or invest in lead sheeting for any "special" areas.
Using pyrotechnics consumes the fire source, so you can't both deal damage and use pyrotechnics as spacelard said. Also, I'd argue that you can close your eyes - but you have to do it for the whole turn, blinding you anyways. It's fireworks, not just an instant flash.
I sometimes find detect magic a bit too much, but remember that it only detects... well... magic. It can't detect mundane traps, and while you're concentrating, someone might be preparing an ambush. Remember that usually, if you've alerted someone in the house, soon all opponents will know you're there - and if you waste time detecting magic, they've got plenty of time to prepare for you better.
Pyrotechnics immediatly causes the source to cause fireworks etc. so if you used a Scorching Ray as the fire source it (the ray) wouldn't do damage (because it has been used as a fire source) or will cause damage and be unavailable to be used as a fire source for the Pyrotechnics spell.
If it was possible to do what you suggest I'm sure that game designers would have thought of doing it and in all the scenarios, rules books, etc. I have seen it has never been mentioned. The rules of the game don't support the idea so still no.
Pyrotechnics does not consume a magical fire, which I would say a scorching ray is.
Pyrotechnics does not consume a magical fire, which I would say a scorching ray is.
"Pyrotechnics turns a fire into a burst of blinding fireworks or a thick cloud of choking smoke, depending on your choice. The spell uses one fire source, which is immediately extinguished. A fire so large that it exceeds a 20-foot cube is only partly extinguished. Magical fires are not extinguished, although a fire-based creature used as a source takes 1 point of damage per caster level."
Doesn't say anything about a distinction between magical and non-magical fire.
Pyrotechnics does not consume a magical fire, which I would say a scorching ray is.
Pyrotechnics immediatly causes the source to cause fireworks etc. so if you used a Scorching Ray as the fire source it (the ray) wouldn't do damage (because it has been used as a fire source) or will cause damage and be unavailable to be used as a fire source for the Pyrotechnics spell.
If it was possible to do what you suggest I'm sure that game designers would have thought of doing it and in all the scenarios, rules books, etc. I have seen it has never been mentioned. The rules of the game don't support the idea so still no.
Duration for a Scorching Ray is instant.
There is no way that you would be able to time the castings, close eyes, etc. in the neat order suggested whilst in combat with all the distractions involed.I'm sorry but what you are suggesting is a non-starter. I wouldn't use it as a GM or player. Again if it was possible then game designers would have picked up on this and it would have been incorperated into the game. In thirty plus years of gaming I have never seen this used in a scenario or game. The question has been around for just as long and the answer has always been no.
Duration for a Scorching Ray is instant.
There is no way that you would be able to time the castings, close eyes, etc. in the neat order suggested whilst in combat with all the distractions involed.
Agreed. Actually, even using the scorching ray as a source seems impossible, but it isn't exactly gamebreaking if the ray is consumed in the casting of pyrotechnics - the ray guy could just have thrown an alchemist fire or whatever.
Pyrotechnics does not consume a magical fire, which I would say a scorching ray is."Pyrotechnics turns a fire into a burst of blinding fireworks or a thick cloud of choking smoke, depending on your choice. The spell uses one fire source, which is immediately extinguished. A fire so large that it exceeds a 20-foot cube is only partly extinguished. Magical fires are not extinguished, although a fire-based creature used as a source takes 1 point of damage per caster level."
Doesn't say anything about a distinction between magical and non-magical fire.
It does say so in the PF core rules that magical fire is not effected. The d20PFRD might be different and it hangs on what defines magical fire. Is Scorching Ray "magical" fire or not? Its evocation so I would say probably.
My own .02.
If you want to burn scorching ray just to cast pyrotechnics I would probably allow it, assuming readied actions and all that jazz.
"closing your eyes" to prevent a spell effect, I would also allow. Just make your saving throw as normal- if successful you managed to pick the right exact moment to close your eyes.
Detect Magic:
If you want to stop and scan buildings/rooms and such and take the time to do so, then feel free. Remember though that many enemies are intelligent, have eyes, and often- bows. Stopping to survey the room can often lead to a pincoushiony feeling.
-S
Pyrotechnics does not consume a magical fire, which I would say a scorching ray is."Pyrotechnics turns a fire into a burst of blinding fireworks or a thick cloud of choking smoke, depending on your choice. The spell uses one fire source, which is immediately extinguished. A fire so large that it exceeds a 20-foot cube is only partly extinguished. Magical fires are not extinguished, although a fire-based creature used as a source takes 1 point of damage per caster level."
Doesn't say anything about a distinction between magical and non-magical fire.
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About the instantaneous duration. That is actually a good point. But what does instantaneous really mean?
When you wanna counter another spell. You first have to realise which spell he is casting, which means that he have already startet the casting. We know that you can counter a magic missile with another magic missile. does this mean that you can cast your magic missile faster than the other guy? or do you cast the equally fast and your spell just manage to counter it somewhere between it leaving him and hitting you? or is there a third option that I havent thought of?
What I am trying to argue is that it seems to me that just because a spell is instantaneous does not mean that you can react to it. When the rogue for instance succeds on his reflex save against a fireball it is my understanding that this is because he has reacted to it. Why can't a wizard do the same?
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Because rolling a Reflex save doesn't take an action. It's 100% reactionary and doesn't require any thought on the part of the individual. It's instinctive.
I had a situation in which an invisible spellcaster was known to be in the area. A PC wanted to ready an action to attack them when they turned visible, figuring that when they cast a spell they would be visible and could be hit. Their readied action was, "I ready an action to use a scorching ray on the spellcaster when he becomes visible." They expected that such a readied action would prevent the other spellcaster's spell from going off. I ruled it wouldn't. Because the other spellcaster doesn't even become visible until after he has cast the spell. This situation is an example of the simultaneous nature of combat. Yes, we take turns in initiative order. But there really is no such thing -- it's only there to allow us to carve some order out of the chaos of combat. And the GM is always within rights to remind the PCs that combat is simultaneous and some things just won't work.
So can you ready an action to cast pyrotechnics when your ally casts scorching ray? Sure. But your spell goes off before your ally's spell (that's what a readied action is, after all) so there's no fire source for your pyrotechnics to use.
It really sounds like your group has found a niche that seems to work and you want to milk it for all it's worth. My advice would be to let it go. Let the GM be the referee in his game -- that's his job, after all. Just like it's your job to come up with innovative spell uses, but to remain within the rules set by the GM.
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The detect magic issue has been discussed in other threads already. Google is your friend. ;)
In any case, I didn't like detect magic being able to find magic items hidden in secret areas because the aura went through stone. So I read the descriptions carefully and came up with the following.
The description for detect magic says it's a cone-shaped emanation. And since it's not a spread, it cannot go around corners. This means the spellcaster must have line of effect and line of sight to the magical item being detected.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
Emphasis mine.
It's easy enough as GM to say that the spell description is wrong regardless of the sentence or two about barriers.
In addition, the spell description also says that it takes three rounds from when the spellcaster begins concentrating on a "particular area". If the spellcaster takes a 5-foot step, the "particular area" has changed and the entire three rounds starts over again. Combine that with the spell requiring Concentration as a standard action each round and it's pretty easy to distract the spellcaster. Or to die of all age at the game table. ;)
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Duration for a Scorching Ray is instant.
There is no way that you would be able to time the castings, close eyes, etc. in the neat order suggested whilst in combat with all the distractions involed.
I'm sorry but what you are suggesting is a non-starter. I wouldn't use it as a GM or player. Again if it was possible then game designers would have picked up on this and it would have been incorperated into the game. In thirty plus years of gaming I have never seen this used in a scenario or game. The question has been around for just as long and the answer has always been no.
If the players spent a round readying actions then I'd allow it. It would take the bard readying pyrotechnics when the mage casts scorching ray and everyone else readying to close their eyes. Of course that leaves the bard and caster open to the effects.
Also there were rules about teamwork feats in 3.5. (Either the DMG2 or PHB2) They gave groups benefits for common team tactics. There was one that gave characters bonuses to saves vs. spells cast by their friends. If anything I would use those unless your players wanted to waste the first round of combat readying actions.
I would not let PCs close their eyes as free actions since free actions can be taken any time, even when it isn't your turn.
If you did allow it, effects such as pyrotechnics and several gaze attacks would be completely useless (as you would negate them, effectively for free by simply closing your eyes).
I would let the PC try to close their eyes to avoid the pyrotechnics, but they have 2 choices.
1. Either they close their eyes for the entire round and are considered blind for that round, it which case they are automatically uneffected.
or
2. They try to time it. In which case there is a chance they mistime it and are still effected. In this case they have to make the save but they get a +2 or +4 circumstance bonus on the save.
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I hate Detect Magic. I hate that it's used as a three-dimensional radar by parties.
When I finally get around to house ruling everything I want to (which will make PFRPG almost an entirely new system - NOT THAT I DON'T ENJOY IT AS IT IS), Detect Magic will work as follows:
Standard Action to cast
25' + 5' per 3 caster levels radius
Effect: Detects the prescence of Magic within the spells radius.
That's it; yes there is magic or no there is not magic. IMHO, it's absolutely silly that a 0-level spell should be any more powerful than this.
I would then create a new 1st level spell designed to fill in the gaps - Locate Magic, or something like that. Locate Magic would be of a very limited Duration - maybe 1 minute per caster level - and would allow line-of-sight detection of precisely which objects in an area are magical, and probably their power. If you want to know the school of the spell, cast Identify, for crying out loud (restored to it's former grandeur, of course).
I will now crawl back in my cave. Rawr.
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I forgot to touch on the Detect Magic thing. The others have given good points on working with it as is.
Though at our table we houseruled that detect magic is line of sight only. Initially there was debate about that or increasing the rounds needed to 3/6/9 for info. We settled on the line of sight fix so it would still be usefull in detection during combat.
I hate Detect Magic. I hate that it's used as a three-dimensional radar by parties.
When I finally get around to house ruling everything I want to (which will make PFRPG almost an entirely new system - NOT THAT I DON'T ENJOY IT AS IT IS), Detect Magic will work as follows:
Standard Action to cast
25' + 5' per 3 caster levels radius
Effect: Detects the prescence of Magic within the spells radius.That's it; yes there is magic or no there is not magic. IMHO, it's absolutely silly that a 0-level spell should be any more powerful than this.
I would then create a new 1st level spell designed to fill in the gaps - Locate Magic, or something like that. Locate Magic would be of a very limited Duration - maybe 1 minute per caster level - and would allow line-of-sight detection of precisely which objects in an area are magical, and probably their power. If you want to know the school of the spell, cast Identify, for crying out loud (restored to it's former grandeur, of course).
I will now crawl back in my cave. Rawr.
It take 3 rounds for the radar to kick in, and even then it is so easily foiled as to be useless.
Every time another party member walks in front of you, you will detect magic and then have to spend 3 rounds figuring out that it was one of their magic items.
Using detect magic to find pinpoint an invisible rogue gives him at least a full round to stick his knife in the mage's ribs.
A thin sheet of lead foil or 3 feet of stone stops detect magic cold.
Finally there are spells that can mask the magic auras of things.
I find if funny people were so quick to nerf the whole pyrotechnics and fire spell notion. It's a cool idea, isn't overly powerful and IMHO enhances the gaming experience.
Rule of Cool applies: let it be.
Detect Magic can penetrate barriers but not 1 foot of stone, or 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead or 3 feet or more of wood and dirt.
If your finding Detect Magic to be a nuisance, conceal magic items in lead-lined chests (cheap and inexpensive way to conceal the magic of whatevers inside), make liberal use of the Magic Aura spell to create false auras on objects for a distraction or to suppress the auras of objects/traps that are in the area (a two fold strategy).
I personally like to con my players by using Magic Aura to create red herring traps that arent dangerous but it certainly slows them down. Fill a corridor with 'magic' tiles like this and have one real trapped tile concealed by the same spell, and you'll have some fun and it'll make for a memorable trap encouter.
My $0.02 worth.
Ventriloquism : Works fine. All it does it take the words you speak and move them somewhere else. That means if you cast say a fireball using it, then what happens is the word 'FLAMBE!' comes from the woods 40 feet away, and the fireball zooms from the bushes you are in. Now the person has to figure out if you are using a feat to cast it to appear somewhere else, or if you are throwing your voice. Either way, it is a 50/50 they get it right, and they'll figure it out quickly. However, it won't work in a silence zone, as the spell just throws your spoken words, and you can't speak any in a field of silence.
Ghost Sound : No, Ghost Sound does not create intelligible sound. It can't be used for casting spells.
Ray + Pyrotechnics : I don't see any reason this couldn't work. The fire in the scorching ray is most certainly magical (as in, it was created magically, and thus not extinguished). Yes it's instantaneous, but, if you can counterspell or dispell it, then that means you should be able to cast simultaneously with it. I'd say both casters would need to be on the same initiative (probably one waits) and they coordinate in some way ('PULL!' spoken aloud perhaps).
Blinking eyes : If they close their eyes the entire first round and are blind, works fine for me. If they try to time it, just give them a +2 to their save vs the flash. They know it's coming from the 'PULL!' earlier.
Ray as Weapon : No, a weapon is a weapon, a physical object used to attack a creature. It could be a sword, or a table, or a lantern swung, but it has to be an object. A spell does not count unless it manifests a physical component to hit. So if the cleric makes a magic mallet that floats over the guy and hits him in the head (I forget the name of that spell) then that's a weapon and should get the bonus. A ray or touch spell isn't and shouldn't.
So if the cleric makes a magic mallet that floats over the guy and hits him in the head (I forget the name of that spell)
Bigbys Crushing Hammer. :3
Just wanted to thank you all for the enlightening answers. :)