You've got a reputation for being able to optimize classes. I'd like to see your ability to write up a class from scratch. Anything you want, whatever suits your fancy.
You know its a testement to treantmonks reputation and skill at both writing and knowledge of the game that has started recieving requests. To that I say well done sir, well done.
You've got a reputation for being able to optimize classes. I'd like to see your ability to write up a class from scratch. Anything you want, whatever suits your fancy.Would it not be a better challenge for us to develop a fan made class and then have him write up the optimization guide?
problem is you have to come up with a class that sparks his interest.
I'd still like to see his takes on the other classes, like Barbarian and Sorceror.
You've got a reputation for being able to optimize classes. I'd like to see your ability to write up a class from scratch. Anything you want, whatever suits your fancy.
Optimizing numbers for something and writing something creative in the right power line requires very much different skills. Not saying that he hasn't got those skills, as the fact that treantmonks guides are so enjoyable to read (even when you're not playing the class) is evidence that he has good writing skills, but it's two very different things.
I'd still like to see his takes on the other classes, like Barbarian and Sorceror.
Sorcerer is already optimized, It's a Wizard who doesn't lose gold every level!
Sorcerer is already optimized, It's a Wizard who doesn't lose gold every level!
Alternatively, its a Wizard who can't buy new guns.
Don't get me wrong Sorcerers, tied with Monks, is my favorite class, but is way harder to optimize than a wizard and a poorly picking a spell can result in extreme dissapointment.
Humbly,
Yawar
Being able to work within guidelines and being able to make up something completely new are two very different things.
I want to see a fully statted treant monk, personally.
I want to see a fully statted treant monk, personally.
+1
Sorcerer is already optimized, It's a Wizard who doesn't lose gold every level!Alternatively, its a Wizard who can't buy new guns.
Don't get me wrong Sorcerers, tied with Monks, is my favorite class, but is way harder to optimize than a wizard and a poorly picking a spell can result in extreme dissapointment.
Humbly,
Yawar
This is why Id like to see his ideas.
A sorceror needs a different build than a wizard and has bloodlines that differ from wizard schools.
WWTMD?
Same with Barbarians...
Sorcerer is already optimized, It's a Wizard who doesn't lose gold every level!Alternatively, its a Wizard who can't buy new guns.
Don't get me wrong Sorcerers, tied with Monks, is my favorite class, but is way harder to optimize than a wizard and a poorly picking a spell can result in extreme dissapointment.
Humbly,
Yawar
True, but they can do the utility job of a wizard with scrolls if your DM is loose with the magic items.
That, and Wizards will usually prepare one "Infallible" spell a day, like Forcecage, completely forgetting that it's still vulnerable to a dispel magic. And then, they're out. The Sorcerer doesn't have to worry about that with spells he knows, and the limited selection forces you to pick very carefully. The bonus bloodline spells are very helpful to useless for certain characters.
I mean, if Treantmonk's not up to doing it I know spells like the back of my hand. And my view of Optimization is a bit wider than most, so I can provide useful commentary on what options would be good for certain character concepts as well as a guide for use as far as a "traditional" sorcerer goes.
And there already is a sorcerer guide, not by treantmonk, but I doubt he would put the effort into reinventing the wheel.
He implied that he agree enough with that guide to make one himself.
Humbly,
Yawar
Treantmonk doesn't build new classes, he writes guides on how to play the classes that are already published. if you design a class, then you already know how to optimize it because you made it. it takes no skill to play a class that someone made for themselves. a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.
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Treantmonk doesn't build new classes, he writes guides on how to play the classes that are already published. if you design a class, then you already know how to optimize it because you made it. it takes no skill to play a class that someone made for themselves. a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.
You.
Me.
Babies.
Now.
That's a bit of hostility towards homebrew I'm sensing. Granted, there's plenty of truth to what's been said.
However, there are plenty of ideas out there that haven't had any work done on them yet that could allow for a person to create a homebrew version.
I mean.. if you could play anything out of what's in the core rules, there'd be no reason for making the Advanced Player's Guide, now would there?
Why not come up with your own Psionic class, or Artificer. Or come up with your own Warforged race, or Nezumi (Rat people from Oriental Adventures), etc.
Just because someone makes such a thing on their own as opposed to a game developer doesn't automatically invalidate their work, or make them a "munchkin wanting the best abilities without paying the costs".
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In my own experience, I prefer my players play a character that does what they want... and not get lumped in with all this extra stuff they will never use. If a person never practiced at the things their "class" gives them, in-game, then it hardly makes sense that they should have that ability.
Now, that can be represented by multi-classing, and back in the day, that meant xp penalties, etc.
However, I was never a DM that liked punishing creativity and felt it better to follow the original 3.0 DMG suggestion of ability swapping or class crafting.
If a player wants a particular class, because of a particular ability, but would never use something else (say, they like Favored enemy but don't want spellcasting, animal companions, fighting style feats, etc), then it would be a better representation of their character to find a way to get that one ability instead of making them have stuff that shouldn't be there.
This isn't a video game, and that's exactly why I play D&D instead.
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*Edit*
I'd just like to agree though, that it's a far cry from optimizing to creating your own.
Optimizing tries to get the most out of what's already there. When you can just make your own stuff up, it's a completely different skill to try and keep it balanced and unique.
Optimization is quite possibly the opposite of making your own class.
I don't have a brand new class, but I do have a fun variant class for fighters that creates new options for characters instead of armor and weapon training. A few users on the forum have already looked at it and the resonance is very positive.
But, I too, would be interested in hearing what treantmonk has to say about it.
Treantmonk doesn't build new classes, he writes guides on how to play the classes that are already published. if you design a class, then you already know how to optimize it because you made it. it takes no skill to play a class that someone made for themselves. a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.
You should correct that with "Most BAD Homebrewers...". Every game you're playing in was and probably is homebrew, since by definition that involves changing any rule to make the game work better. Aside form that I try to accurately model a given race based on what I know, and then tweak it until it's balanced. For example, I made a race based on the Tuatara with +4 Con and +2 Dex because it seemed appropriate for a race based off a lizard with a lifespan longer than a human's to have a good constitution. +4 Con is hardly overpowered, even when they got the standard animal person -2 int and cha rigamarole. When compared to: +2 bonus on saving throws versus spells, +1 to all saving throws, one extra feat, +2 on rolls for spell penetration and all the other things those races get, +1 on fort saves and hp per level is like eh. Their main useful ability is only half the normal miss chance from concealment, which is fairly situational but helps out on invisible targets and gives the percentile dice something to do besides sit there while the DM flips a coin. That is an example of a good racial, one useful to every class, unlike the Elf racial which will literally sit there like an unwanted child doing nothing if you're not a caster, specifically you're going to be a wizard.
That and claiming that what homebrewers produce is unbalanced and then claiming that what the game makers produce is balanced makes no sense. I take it you were playing 3.5 when WotC was marketing, right? Every other book contained something that didn't just slightly unbalance the game, but completely snapped it in half. I have never seen a homebrewer put out something that bad. Even a friend of mine who made a race of demons based on the demons in the MM with NO level adjustment and resist 10 to three elements still didn't have as much of an effect on the game as half the crap WotC churned out. He was just a rouge who could be lit on fire, shocked or shoved into acid at low level with no effect. Nothing compared to, say, wielding a special weapon from a special book with your special racial ability to make it bigger than normal, and get proficiency in this weapon with no feats, also it deals now a 2d8 and has a x4 critical, did I mention this is at 2nd level?
Yeah, everything Paizo puts out I'm sure will be more balanced than the freaking Goliath. They could make a first level spell that says "Target spellcaster cannot use Somatic components 1 round/level" and it would STILL be more balanced.
i guess i have read too many poorly made homebrew classes online. everybody here does seem to have a point. a lot of said poorly made homebrew classes i have seen are wish fulffillment. some of the homebrew races i saw were too. i beleive that there can be good homebrew, just most of what i read had a bad aftertaste.
Treantmonk doesn't build new classes, he writes guides on how to play the classes that are already published. if you design a class, then you already know how to optimize it because you made it. it takes no skill to play a class that someone made for themselves. a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.You.
Me.
Babies.
Now.
Unfortunately, i do not wish to bear anybody's child at the moment.
i agree that goliaths do sound quite overpowered. i have had bad experiences with half giants.
Sorry for the late reply guys. Friday I actually was roleplaying, and just haven't been here for a couple days.
I've mentioned this before, but my guides are largely selfish. I'm playing a Bard right now, and I regularly look at my own guide for reminders on which spells I was impressed with, which feats, etc.
If I don't want to play a class, then you probably won't see a guide for it from me, though I'm always happy to give my opinion or suggestions when asked for them.
As for homebrew, well, our group plays with very few house rules, and there are no homebrew classes or races normally, so the incentive for the work just isn't there for me.
I've done some creative work before (made my own fantasy roleplaying game once - ran a campaign in it even), but this was all before I was married with a daughter. The time I devote to my this hobby now is significantly reduced.
He could try to optimise/break my Mageknight Base Class
breaking classes is NOT my specialty, rules loopholes don't jump off the page at me, but if you want my opinion whether it is balanced, I would be happy to take a look.
You've got a reputation for being able to optimize classes. I'd like to see your ability to write up a class from scratch. Anything you want, whatever suits your fancy.You know its a testement to treantmonks reputation and skill at both writing and knowledge of the game that has started recieving requests. To that I say well done sir, well done.
It is definitely soothing to the ego ;)
My wife has declared me a "Geek God"...not sure if her tone of voice was sarcastic though...
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I've mentioned this before, but my guides are largely selfish. I'm playing a Bard right now, and I regularly look at my own guide for reminders on which spells I was impressed with, which feats, etc.
Just curious...did you try the Controller bard build that you described in your guide? I found that build interesting.
He could try to optimise/break my Mageknight Base Class. Would really help see how balanced it is in the hands of a good optimiser.
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AXlTYYW9enwPZGQ3M3RicHRfMHFnODh4M2d3& hl=en
I'd like to see if it can become broken of if it would be banlanced now.
I'm playtesting both versions this week but I'm fairly confident it's ok as it is either 1. A totally selfish self buffer/melee'r
2. A great blaster (which is generally considered subpar- so being REAL good at it makes you OK.
OK - I've taken a look.
1) I didn't see any obvious loopholes. A few abilities that are pretty good - but any decent class has a few of those.
2) I don't think it's unbalanced. The combat-based Mageknight kind of reminds me of a Bard mixed with a Duskblade. Pathfinder needs a decent gish.
3) If I see anything wrong with the class, it's that the blaster-option is pretty poor IMO. A Mageknight is casting lower level spells than an equivalent level sorcerer or wizard, which means lower DC's - but the mageknight can even it up by taking damage?
Also, a casting-oriented class needs way more spell castings. If you are a combatant who uses spells, then you aren't casting on most rounds, so no problem, but the "blaster" Mageknight doesn't have many other options - but he'll be out of spells quite quickly.
Really, a Druid (casting-oriented) is going to make a better blaster than this guy, and have way more staying power, while keeping pace on armor, BAB, HP, etc.
That said - I'm not sure what you would need to do to fix it. I'm almost wondering whether your options shouldn't be Combat/Magic, but instead could be something like "Melee/Ranged" or something like that.
4) You've done some cut and paste from the Summoner I'm guessing? Check your text...I noticed it referring to the Summoner in there in one place.
From an optimization standpoint, I would think the best option would be the combat-oriented Mageknight - maybe a two-handed fighter using arcane strike from both sides, and that ability where you can burn spells for added maneuverability and to-hit. Throw a couple decent buffs on - it would be pretty nasty. (Especially once you are running around at 60'+ in full plate at higher levels) That said - maybe the movement bonus should be reduced for heavier armors?
Just curious...did you try the Controller bard build that you described in your guide? I found that build interesting.
I've mentioned this before, but my guides are largely selfish. I'm playing a Bard right now, and I regularly look at my own guide for reminders on which spells I was impressed with, which feats, etc.
No - I was too cowardly *embarassed*
I made the archer build. Found it quite versatile while maintaining a very strong offensive punch. Working quite well so far (we are level 8 currently). I'm quite impressed with the Pathfinder Bard.
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Just curious...did you try the Controller bard build that you described in your guide? I found that build interesting.
I've mentioned this before, but my guides are largely selfish. I'm playing a Bard right now, and I regularly look at my own guide for reminders on which spells I was impressed with, which feats, etc.
No - I was too cowardly *embarassed*
I made the archer build. Found it quite versatile while maintaining a very strong offensive punch. Working quite well so far (we are level 8 currently). I'm quite impressed with the Pathfinder Bard.
I don't blame you...the archer build looks very effective.
Treantmonk doesn't build new classes, he writes guides on how to play the classes that are already published. if you design a class, then you already know how to optimize it because you made it. it takes no skill to play a class that someone made for themselves. a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.
+1
a lot of homebrew classes i have seen were little more than stolen loosely threaded mix and match combinations of abilities that the class creator wanted for thier own personal use. most homebrewers are munchkins that want the best abilities of multiple classes without paying the cost involved. a homebrew race is ususally made with very little more effort than i want a race that is good at X build. most homebrew races are really little more than niche races. niche races are not a good thing. nobody wants to play a particular race as a member of a class they suck at, they will play what that race excels at. people maximize thier advantages and minimize thier disadvantages, homebrewing just removes the required effort that is involved.As someone who does home brew classes that borrow heavily from existing classes, I would like to be offended by this. Unfortunately, what you describe is an accurate evaluation of most of the homebrew I've seen online and even applies to some published products. Personally I try to keep things reasonable and balanced, building to the concept more than power, and borrowing from existing classes so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Unfortunately a lot of homebrew is all about Awesome Super Power Combo.
I've played with optimizers (who could also role play well) and can hold my own well enough. I can appreciate number crunching, but for me character is what really counts. Unfortunately those who put number crunching above all else to the point of detriment (munchkins) make life just that much harder for those who appreciate that aspect of the game and the other aspects of it as well.
that was the point i was trying to say, but i ended up saying it quite late at night and my brain wasn't quite functioning too well at the time.