I'm slightly irritated by the bestiary's treasure rules: the treasure of NPCs depends on their CR, but monsters and other creatures without a class have their treasure being decided by the party's average level.
Soo... why does monsters get more treasure as time goes on, even though the monster itself doesn't get stronger? What's even stranger is that every monster with "Standard" treasure gives the party as much gold as a whole encounter for their average level is supposed to give. And that's for EACH monster.
By this rule, a simple barghest (CR 4) would give a party with APL 4 1,150 gp. Fast forward to the same group with APL 8, and the next barghest has 3,350 gp. But since the barghest isn's scary any more, let's give him 3 buddies - increasing the treasure to 13,400 gp. That's enough for 4 encounters!
I presume I'm just supposed to spread the 3,350 gp among all of the barghest. But what happens if a creature with "Double" treasure joins the mix? How will that affect this encounter's treasure? Do I just pick the biggest treasure, in this case, "Double"?
table 12-5 is per encounter, not per creature
for a party of 4th level characters a single barghest is an "average encounter" and thus is worth 1150 gp of treasure. the same barghest against a party of 8th level characters is not even an "easy Encounter" (APL-1) and thus should not award anything like the treasure level of an average encounter.
against the 8th level party you might give him 3 more barghests, making it a CR 8 encounter, which then again becomes an average encounter for the APL, so the 4 barghests would have a combined treasure for the encounter worth 5450 gp.
it helps to read the "Placing Treasure" text on pages 399-400 closely, it becomes much more usable... although it still doesn't account for how to determine treasure for a single encounter with mixed groups of monsters where some may have average treasure, some may have double treasure, and others might have incidental or no treasure.
table 12-5 is per encounter, not per creature
That's the funny part: the bestiary says "“Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter."
Sounds like that's for every single creature Oo
Count pelts and fangs as treasure? Barghest pelt worth 650gp? Hope someone has ranks in suvival...Mr. Fishy is a bad fishy.
table 12-5 is per encounter, not per creatureThat's the funny part: the bestiary says "“Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter."
Sounds like that's for every single creature Oo
Bolded for emphasis.
Awarding treasure isn't based on any sort of objective "reality," but is intended to keep the game running smoothly and the party within the WBL.
Bolded for emphasis.table 12-5 is per encounter, not per creatureThat's the funny part: the bestiary says "“Standard” treasure indicates the total value of the creature's treasure is that of a CR equal to the average party level, as listed on Table: Treasure Values per Encounter."
Sounds like that's for every single creature Oo
The pre-bold part still talks about "the creature's treasure", not about multiple creatures.
Yeah each creature that is CR appropriate for the party should give the "standard" if that's what they have. If the creature isn't CR appropriate then it should be less.
A CR appropriate creature is by itself supposed to take up 1/5 of the parties resources. If you have 2 of those then it's actually a CR +2 encounter (or a "tough" encounter as the charts have it).
I was just thinking: why not go to this "Average Treasure per Encounter"-table, treat the monster's CR as APL and then choose the amount of treasure? That way, a creature will always yield the same amount of treasure no matter how strong the party is - just like a NPC. That way, it'll be easier to determine the total treasure of creatures with widly different treasure values (like 2 "Double" and 3x "Standard"). If the total value is above/below the average treasure per encounter, you can fix that easily with future encounters.
I am completely with the OP. The party's level shouldn't even be a consideration when determining how much treasure a given creature would have. Why should parties that manage to punch above their weight get penalized?
Ken
Have you even read the section that I pointed out? a party that defeats a higher then APL CR encounter isn't penalized, if your encounter is "challenging" you add one to the APL to determine treasure, if it is "hard" it add two to it, and for an "Epic" encounter add three to it.
So a party of 7th level characters defeating a CR 7 encounter (APL +0. so "average") using medium progression can expect to find 2,600 gp worth of treasure (assuming the monsters involved have standard treasure).
The same party of 7th level characters defeating a CR 10 encounter (APL +3. so "Epic") using medium progression can expect to find 5,450 gp worth of treasure.... the exact same amount as a group of 10th level characters taking down the same encounter could expect to find.
one problem it the text has is that it doesn't actually give guidelines as to how much treasure an encounter more then a single CR below the APL should possess... in that case I would advise simply treating its CR as the APL on the chart... in fact if you simply change the APL row on table 12-5 to read monsters CR then it will not actually change the treasure values awarded for easy to epic encounters, and will give you good guidelines for encounters you might want to place that fall outside of those ranges.
I too miss treasure types and random rolls sometimes... but the game has 'evolved' since then (not in always for the better in every instance IMO, but you have to admit that the game has gotten more "balanced" as it has gone on). I see no reason to be straight jacket by playing 1 game though, so So I find myself playing BECMI and AD&D as well as Pathfinder and 3.5 (and Call of Cthulhu and MSH) as often as possible.
So a party of 7th level characters defeating a CR 7 encounter (APL +0. so "average") using medium progression can expect to find 2,600 gp worth of treasure (assuming the monsters involved have standard treasure).
And if they don't all have the same treasure value? What am I going to do then? That's my big problem.
NPCs are way easier here: just look up on the NPC treasure table, add it all up and bingo!
Please note people these are guidelines not hard and fast rules (like the combat rules)... they are to aid the GM in giving out treasure, not tie his hands and threaten to beat him if he doesn't comply.
Please note the treasure doesn't have to be found on the body. It could be on the skeleton of a pass victim of the monster the adventurers killed, or part of an ornate statue that was in the ruins that the monster lived in. Another choice is the treasure on from the monster might be the reward offered to the characters for slaying the monster in the first place. Maybe the monster didn't have any treasure... but there is an unsecured treasure chest a few rooms from here with something in it.
The idea isn't that you MUST give them this now... the treasure per encounter is a rough estimate to keep you in the range of the wealth by level chart (which is in and of itself another rough estimate) so that the players may be "on par" (in general) with the challenges according to challenge rating (yet a third rough estimate) for their level.
Count pelts and fangs as treasure? Barghest pelt worth 650gp? Hope someone has ranks in suvival...Mr. Fishy is a bad fishy.
Maybe, but I like the way Mr. Fishy thinks...outside the bowl.