Can you have mithral studded leather? I mean, it does have metal on it.
My gut says no, but there's just something nagging at me that thinks it should work.
I would say Hell no...as the leather makes up most of the armor
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)
so, the rules say no.
but, what is the harm in a houserule?maybe reduce the weight of the armor by 1/2 of the difference between leather and studded (17.5 for medium) and decrease ASF by the same amount. oddly, the cost wouldn't be reduced RAW (2.5lbs of mithral would be 1500gp, so go with light armor at 1000gp).
no way should it get the full benefit though, which would make it weigh less than leather, have a higher dex cap and lower ASF!
still better off with a mithral chain shirt for about the same price.
just curious or did you have an application in mind?
Are you looking at mithral because you have a high dex character? I had the some issue when doing up an ranged archer character but then I realised that there is Celestial Armor which has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8.
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)so, the rules say no.
but, what is the harm in a houserule?maybe reduce the weight of the armor by 1/2 of the difference between leather and studded (17.5 for medium) and decrease ASF by the same amount. oddly, the cost wouldn't be reduced RAW (2.5lbs of mithral would be 1500gp, so go with light armor at 1000gp).
no way should it get the full benefit though, which would make it weigh less than leather, have a higher dex cap and lower ASF!still better off with a mithral chain shirt for about the same price.
just curious or did you have an application in mind?
Thanks for pointing this out. It is as i figured. I'm playing a Doppelganger Factotum/Chameleon and when i picture the character i see him in studded leather, but casting arcane spells from Chameleon i wanted to get the ASF down without dropping a feat. I can handle 5% ASF, but there's just something about 10% that makes me nervous. Not sure why.
Thanks for pointing this out. It is as i figured. I'm playing a Doppelganger Factotum/Chameleon and when i picture the character i see him in studded leather, but casting arcane spells from Chameleon i wanted to get the ASF down without dropping a feat. I can handle 5% ASF, but there's just something about 10% that makes me nervous. Not sure why.
hmm, well, it sounds like outside material is allowed in your campaign.
what about the twilight armor enchantment (BoED/PHBII) basically reduces ASF so that a mithral chain shirt has 0% ASF. If you like the look of studded, you could always get it glamered! :-)
I forgot about twilight. Thanks.
I thought glamered only made the armor appear as regular clothing, not a different suit of armor?
I thought glamered only made the armor appear as regular clothing, not a different suit of armor?
yes, RAW say suit of regular clothing.
however, I can't imagine a GM having a problem with that.a better solution is actually to have it partially blackened. I'm not aware of any rules for costing, but it shouldn't be much if anything. it wouldn't look entirely like studded, but same basic appearance (black and silver).
have fun!
Can you have mithral studded leather? I mean, it does have metal on it.
My gut says no, but there's just something nagging at me that thinks it should work.
Considering I had a character that had a set of masterwork studded leather destroyed by a rust monster once, I would lean towards it being okay. The DM justified it because of buckles and stuff, but I would think that a rust monsters attack would work like electricity, and stop if two bits of metal weren't connected. I think if it can be destroyed (negative) it can be mithrilled (positive) which balance out.
Well, studded leather has always been the source of much misconception.
In fact the studs have no real protective function itself.
Rather the trick of studded leather is that it is like padded leather, only more so. So in order to keep the thicker padding where it is and to increase the stability of the whole thing, metal studs were used in addition of seams.
In these times (much as today) looks was very important and so it wasn't long until someone demanded their studs to be pointy instead of flat, and use more studs than the armor would absolutely need (adding much to weight and cost but almost nothing to protective value).
However, there really never was such a thing as "Leather Armor" at all, because padded and studded armor was almost exclusively made of wool with linen interior and stuffed with horse hairs or scarps of wool. Leather armor is mostly fiction.
However, there really never was such a thing as "Leather Armor" at all, because padded and studded armor was almost exclusively made of wool with linen interior and stuffed with horse hairs or scarps of wool. Leather armor is mostly fiction.
IIRC there was one 'form' of leather armor, but it was basically a scale armor made of hardened leather scales. IOW a poor man's scale armor, not what the game would suggest as leather armor.
That said, people have worn leather throughout history - they just didn't call it armor. Minimal protection vs military weaponry to be sure.
No, but I've seen rules for Elven Leaf armor that basically does for leather and hide what mithril does for metal (it's basically giant leaves that are alchemically treated and formed into armor). Arms and Equipment Guide for 3rd ed, and I think there is in fact a Golarion version of the stuff as well. Someone more versed in Pathfinder Chronicles than I might be able to find where it's located.
As to "real" leather armor, weren't Greek (or Roman? My arms and armor history is blanking on me at the moment) cuirasses made of leather? (The bigwigs got bronze breastplates to wear over them, but everyone else wore leather, I thought.
However, there really never was such a thing as "Leather Armor" at all, because padded and studded armor was almost exclusively made of wool with linen interior and stuffed with horse hairs or scarps of wool. Leather armor is mostly fiction.
Historically leather armor is know as leather cuirass. Basically hardened leather breast plate that was much more flexible than it's metal counter part. Historically it was used by Greece, Rome, Israel, the Hittites, Sumerians, Vikings, Celts and other ancient cultures. This type of armor was typically referred to as leather armor but in game terms it's more like hide armor.
However, there really never was such a thing as "Leather Armor" at all, because padded and studded armor was almost exclusively made of wool with linen interior and stuffed with horse hairs or scarps of wool. Leather armor is mostly fiction.
This is not true. I suggest you look up boiled leather or cuir bouilli. It was extremely common for common soldiers because it was cheap and quick to make, compared to metal or cloth armor.
This is not true. I suggest you look up boiled leather or cuir bouilli. It was extremely common for common soldiers because it was cheap and quick to make, compared to metal or cloth armor.
"cuir bouilli" was used in a variety of forms and functions such as scroll cases and even for chalices.
In terms of armor from "cuir bouilli" there has been no evidence that after the greeks there was a form of hardened leather armor in the sense used in D&D widely used. Some evidence points to the mongols to wear hardened leather scales that were sewn to a silk cloth armor - Scale Mail style. The Vikings of the east (called the Rus) adopted this style in very rare cases. Also the Samurai of Japan used this armor for a long time - only to discover it's terrible inadequance during the invasion by the koreans (which was only halted by a "divine storm" - a kami kaze - sinking the korean ships)
In Roman times the cured leather armor began to die with the invention of better (steel) weapons. Also after the Romans we see no pictures or relics that show leather as shin- or armguards (except for archers).
Finally, if you actually do test cutting with a steel sword made for slashing as possessed by Romans, Celts or Vikings, you see that this type of leather offers little to no protection that would justify it's considerable weight. With the bronze swords of the Greeks that is another story because those possessed a weak tang and were more effective for stabbing as every slashing strike carried the risk of considerable damage to the sword.
So leather armor going face to face with steel swords on a regular basis is a myth.
For a complete and exhaustive treaty on this I suggest the works of R. Ewart Oakeshott, Christian Petersen and Alfred Geibig.
(though it WAS inferior to even chainmail).
Which, of course, is why leather armor gives +2 AC and chainmail gives +6 AC ...
I don't think anyone argues that leather was terribly effective. It was used because it was cheap, quick, and easy. Armies that could afford to outfit their troops in metal armor did so. Armies that couldn't used leather, generally.
Not to mention there are historical examples of page's gear made from hardened leather. For young men learning the trade of arms, the leather mimicked the shape and proportional weight of full armor, while being cheaper to have in a variety of sizes.
Studded leather probably represents a few different types of armor, from the "jack" worn by Henry the V's common troopers, to the "coat of plates" to brigandine type armor.
An armored jack was effectively padded wool or linen with small iron squares or discs inside. They were held in place with small studs or by stitching, depending on the owner's wealth. They didn't last very long but could keep a glancing blow from being fatal.
The Coat of Plates, at least reproductions I've seen, are regular metal rectangles held in pockets in a quilted or leather garment. The plates are more prevalent and better made than a jack and was actually decent protection against slashing, though they could be hacked through with heavier weapons.
The brigandine was the next step along. The brigandine was a set of metal plates roughly shaped to the torso, riveted together, and encased in leather. The rivets would look like small studs. That's probably where the notion of studded leather comes from.
I just have to call this out. Korean invasion of Japan? Surely you must mean the mongol invasion.
Right, Mongols, not Koreans. But, in fact, the mongol invasion was possible only due to the Korean ships...
My friend make a hardened leather breastplate for himself in his Uncle's leatherworking shop. He was working off designs used by Vikings (500ish, IIRC). ... The equipment he used to trim it was substantial...
Well, there are several records of how the greece made their armor and historians reproducing this created armors that were as I told. Maybe modern methods and leather from "modern" souces are better?
Vikings were well after 500AD, probably mean the celts. However, nowwhere in the celtic and viking tales/sagas was leather armor mentioned. The famous Carpet of Bayeux hasn't got the slightest hint of leather armor...
Anyways the history is still largely in the dark...
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How about darkwood studded leather for druids? Ironwood is an obvious yes, right? But you'd need a set of wooden studded leather to begin with, to enchant whenever you wanted the ironwood.
Darkwood is a funny duck. It *should* be hard enough to make a breastplate out of (in addition to studs for studded leather), but nobody seems to use it that way in-game.
Even if darkwood wasn't usable this way 'out of the box,' I'd allow it to be alchemically-treated to be usable this way.
In a world of chainmail bikini's providing a +6 Armor Bonus, do we really need to debate the merits or historical accuracy of studded leather?
I included a chain bikini rated as a padded armor and a chain vest rated as a leather armor, for fun at first.
BUT! the option of getting mithral versions with 0% spell-fail and a mutch lower scale of enchantement cost when compared to bracers of armor made them a big issue.
In the end, I still have them as variants of bracers (90% cost, use the armor item slot, heavier, more visible but the +1 (padded like) and +2 (leather like) have no magic auras).