Trip and Cleave


Rules Questions


Cant find anything official, can you use trip during cleave?


Reading the rules, I don't think so, because Cleave is its own standard action.

But one could argue that, realistically, a sweep made to trip someone could extend to the next foe.

You'll have to house-rule it, though.


jyster wrote:
Cant find anything official, can you use trip during cleave?

Trip is just another type of melee attack.

You can use trip on a cleave if fighting unarmed or with a so called trip weapon.


jyster wrote:
Cant find anything official, can you use trip during cleave?

As per RAW, you can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack (first line of Trip combat maneuver). Melee attack is a standard action. Cleave benefit states as following :

"As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach. You can only make one additional attack per round with this feat"

As you can substitute "Melee attack" for "Trip combat Maneuver" (both are standard actions) you may read the Cleave feat benefit as following : "As a standard action you can use the Trip combat maneuver against a foe within reach. If you hit, the target is prone (the "damage" of Trip) normally and you can make an additional Trip attack against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach..."

Now if you want to trip a foe then use Cleave to hit an adjacent foe with a weapon I'd say no for the reason Louis IX gave. It's another standard action.

Hope this helps

Bran.


jyster wrote:
Cant find anything official, can you use trip during cleave?

No, you can't. In PFRPG the mechanics of cleave changed significantly, it became a standard action in its own right. The concept is much the same that was introduced into 3.5 with the Book of Nine Swords for maneuvers. The feat enables you to perform a maneuver in combat that is not allowed otherwise: you can try to attack and damage multiple foes with the same strike. Emphasis on strike. Just check the first sentence of the feat.

So technically if you cleave, you do not "attack", but use the cleave feat as your standard action in your round.


Louis IX wrote:
Reading the rules, I don't think so, because Cleave is its own standard action.
The Grandfather wrote:
Trip is just another type of melee attack. You can use trip on a cleave [...]

Cleave:
As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach.[...]

OK, I might have misread this bit of rule. The confusing thing is the "you deal damage normally" in Cleave's description. Since Trip's doesn't do damage, we can assume it's possible if the "normal damage" dealt is 0.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gray Eminence wrote:
jyster wrote:
Cant find anything official, can you use trip during cleave?

No, you can't. In PFRPG the mechanics of cleave changed significantly, it became a standard action in its own right. The concept is much the same that was introduced into 3.5 with the Book of Nine Swords for maneuvers. The feat enables you to perform a maneuver in combat that is not allowed otherwise: you can try to attack and damage multiple foes with the same strike. Emphasis on strike. Just check the first sentence of the feat.

So technically if you cleave, you do not "attack", but use the cleave feat as your standard action in your round.

Sorry, but combat maneuvers ARE considered melee attacks, are they not?

EDIT: Just reread the Combat Maneuver section. Whereas they are clearly considered attack rolls, it is far less clear as to whether they are considered melee attacks.


Yes, you can use trip interchangeably during a Cleave, in exactly the same manner you can use Trip during a full attack. The wording about "you deal damage normally..." leaves a bit to be desired, but nonetheless it works.

You can use any Combat Maneuver that takes the place of an attack, just not those that take the place of a standard action.


Ravingdork wrote:
Gray Eminence wrote:
jyster wrote:
Cant find anything official, can you use trip during cleave?

No, you can't. In PFRPG the mechanics of cleave changed significantly, it became a standard action in its own right. The concept is much the same that was introduced into 3.5 with the Book of Nine Swords for maneuvers. The feat enables you to perform a maneuver in combat that is not allowed otherwise: you can try to attack and damage multiple foes with the same strike. Emphasis on strike. Just check the first sentence of the feat.

So technically if you cleave, you do not "attack", but use the cleave feat as your standard action in your round.

Sorry, but combat maneuvers ARE considered melee attacks, are they not?

EDIT: Just reread the Combat Maneuver section. Whereas they are clearly considered attack rolls, it is far less clear as to whether they are considered melee attacks.

Some Combat Maneuvers can be used IN PLACE OF melee attacks (grapple being an exception). So, short answer: "yes". Long, hair-splitting answer: "no (but...)"

As a DM, I'll allow pertinent Combat Maneuvers w/ Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind Attack, Spring Attack, etc. When applicable, the Combat Maneuver can't change; i.e. you can't Trip, then Sunder on a Cleave.

Zo

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