I'm curious to know what other people have done with the class. Is it underpowered? Does the trickster have any good tricks? Tell us about the one in your game.
Race, class, feats, level, etc. How does it do?
|
I'm not a huge fan, though they have their uses. Its a wizard who gains sneak attack... not exactly a very useful niche though it can deal some damage with rays if it gets the drop on someone. This can be fun, but its not my personal cup-of-tea. I'd rather have a class based of rogue that gets a few spells rather than play an *almost* dedicated wizard, personally.
I know bard is close, but its the difference between an ice cream sandwich from your freezer and one from the ice cream man. :\
The class actually works best with a ranged weapon rather than rays.
Use Improved Invisibility, then a bow to get multiple attacks in a round from range. Rapid Shot and Haste help immensely. You can really pile on the sneak attack dice that way.
The main draw of the class is its ability to handle both skills and spellcasting in a way unique from other potential class combos. It becomes the ultimate 'utility knife' character. At least for the wizard based AT who has the Int to get a buttload of skill points.
|
Building an arcane trickster right now and I have to say... hugely unimpressed. You are so vastly overshadowed by a pure caster of your same character level it's ridiculous. Your rogue skills come into play sometimes but overall when you enter the class you are almost a 5th wheel in the party.
My feeling on these classes (Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, Arcane Trickster) is they are best used for NPCs or for characters who are in small parties and need to cover more than one party role with a single character. As a GM I discourage players from taking these classes because they inevitably wind up behind the power curve.
|
|
The class actually works best with a ranged weapon rather than rays.
Use Improved Invisibility, then a bow to get multiple attacks in a round from range. Rapid Shot and Haste help immensely. You can really pile on the sneak attack dice that way.
The main draw of the class is its ability to handle both skills and spellcasting in a way unique from other potential class combos. It becomes the ultimate 'utility knife' character. At least for the wizard based AT who has the Int to get a buttload of skill points.
Unfortunately by the time this is a valid tactic you've spent a LOT of levels being pretty mediocre. If you want to snipe just make an archer. If you want sniping plus skills and light spells take ranger. Ranger is going to out-damage Trickster almost every round.
I'm not a big fan of the arcane trickster. It really seems like the bard (arcane skill monkey) is more useful or some of the other optional 3.5 classes like beguiler replicate some of the core functions of this class without being mechanically inferior.
Precision damage is nice but an archer trickster is really limited by his/her viable range. I think you could possible go self buffing dagger fighter (you'd be pretty vulnerable though) but it seems a big part of the class is it's noncombat utility. Increasing noncombat utility of a class is nice but I'm not sure the trade off is necessarily worthwhile.
I think it's got some utility in a 3 person party but I think in the vast majority of games I'd rather have a dedicated rogue and a dedicated wizard rather than an amalgam character.
As a Rogue-Wizard sort of class, it is perhaps not too impressive, but I find that a Bard-Rogue-Arcane Trickster can really hold his own, not as a full caster but as a party rogue-jack of all trades:
1) good number of skills, you can max the Perception/Disable Device options (plus a little Trapfinding). Ranged Legerdemain reduces risks and may trigger traps at a distance
2) decent sneak attack. As pointed above, paired with Invisibilities and Silences it can be pretty devastating.
3) A Bard's spontaneous casting lets you use Invisibility (and hence Sneak Attacks) over and over in an encounter. Invisible Thief improves this at higher levels. Bard/Rogue gives you a better BAB, so this option paired with ranged attacks is devastating even against enemies not engaged in melee or surprised. Together with Invisible Thief, this makes attacks pretty devastating.
4) Bard does not have so many damaging spells to use Surprise Spell, but at the capstone level, you have 15th Lvl bard progression, so Shadow Conjuration and similar spells are open to you.
5) A good selection of protection and improvement spells, like Blur, Mirror Image or Haste.
6) Some Bard abilities are not based on level (except for duration) but on Perform (and with this class selection you can easily max out one Perform skill or two). Countersong, for instance, is going to be at its strongest.
We had an elven Bard 5 / Rogue 5 / Arcane Trickster in our Savage Tide campaign. With very high Dex, she became the party's ranged warrior of choice. With a magic bow in her hands, the character definitely shined in combat encounters, probably more than a regular rogue.
|
The worst of the "dual role" classes; the Eldrich Knight has their moments and is in some respects better than a mag, the Arcane Archer is worse but more flavorful, the Dragon Disciple isn't a bad compliment for a battle bard switching over at 8th level, the Trickster lost its best 3.5 combo (blink-Sneak Attack) and is now reduced to pretty good flavor and just too much lost. I'd rather play a straight rogue with lots of UMD when I want spells.
The requirements to enter the PrC are high. The benefits do not allow them to reconcile the duality of their abilities, stand-off Mage vs in-close Rogue. I allowed them to avoid some ASF when wearing light armor, scaled through 10 levels. It helped a lot.
|
|
I'm curious to know what other people have done with the class. Is it underpowered? Does the trickster have any good tricks? Tell us about the one in your game.
Race, class, feats, level, etc. How does it do?
Right now, we've build one as cohort. It's Human, 10th level, mixed Rogue, Sorcerer, Spellwarp Sniper and Arcane Trickster. We'll see how it plays this Sunday. ;)
We have a rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster in our party. He sucks, but only because the player is a complete moron (he's gone the last eight levels without thinking to make a single sneak attack!).
I look at his character sheet and I can clearly see how awesome it is and how super awesome it will be in the future--that is if the player wasn't such a moron.
Good observations, people. Keep 'em coming.
I thought one of the weaknesses was the lousy bab. Raising it to the medium bab would give a net +2 after 10 levels for those ranged attacks, and allow a 3rd melee attack at high levels. As it is, those wonderful sneak attack spells, even with dex and other bonuses, miss too often, and that is major suckage. +2 isn't much, but it's something.
A rogue 3/wiz 3 is weak.
Rog3/sor 4 is weak.
Rogue 3/bard 4; not so bad, until you start the PrC and get the sucktastic bab progression. This combo would likely rely on weapon attacks, since bards don't have much in the way of direct damage spells. They'd need to UMD wands, scrolls, etc. to get one-shot sneak attack damage added onto spells, and they'd need to carry quite a few to reliably blast a variety of enemies.
Like so many other PF fans, I'm glad the PrCs exist, if just for flavor. Paizo listened, and they're better than their 3.5 counterparts, but still behind.
It would be nice to make them more viable for players, too.
Precision damage is nice but an archer trickster is really limited by his/her viable range.
Perhaps allowing the AT to use sneak attack on spells up to their normal spell range would do the job. Acid splash, for example is a close-range spell, and you still have to be 30' or less to manage sneak attack damage with it. If the AT were simply allowed sneak attack damage at whatever range, the sneak attack would be more viable. A rog3/wiz3/AT1 would have a close range of 35' for an infinitely repeatable spell, scaling up with levels.
It's a synergistic something other classes wouldn't grant, and makes it a little more fun to play. Acid arrow, as a long range spell, could hurt an enemy caster from a great distance, and force concentration checks for a number of rounds that scale with the AT's caster level.
We have a rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster in our party. He sucks, but only because the player is a complete moron (he's gone the last eight levels without thinking to make a single sneak attack!).
I look at his character sheet and I can clearly see how awesome it is and how super awesome it will be in the future--that is if the player wasn't such a moron.
Is he a new player? Does he know he can get extra damage dice with any ranged attack spell? Ray of frost is nice if you can add sneak attack to it. It's fairly useless, otherwise.
If he knows that and never does it, he's the moron. If he doesn't understand the mechanics, you (and the other players) are just mean! LOL!
What are you expecting? i like the class it does what its ment to do, gain some sneak attack on your rays. You get more skills, and retain most of your caster power. yes will be behind a pure caster BUT your not ment to out perform them, or a pure rogue. Btw who ever said ray damage wasn't impressive... get a ray does 1d6/lvl(i know a few just to lazy open my book) now quicken that so its 2 lets assume level 10...
10d6 ray+4d6 sneak attack x2
so if land both rays, your effectively dealing 14d6 damage on your opening round or when your flanking the enemy. Now, lets compare that to a pure level 10 wizard.
only doing 10d6 x2 so losing out on 4d6 sneak attack damage.
assuming your allowed to take practiced caster, if not losing 3 caster levels in damage but still coming off 11d6 total damage. If your allowed to use some of old 3.5 stuff....well i once designed a rogue/mage could deal something like 30-40d6 damage x2 at level 20 thats epic level damage. Anyway class is fine it works fine does what its ment to do, end of story.
Now add suprise spell and can suddenly throw a fire ball and deal aoe damage and sneak attack damage. Build an arcane trickster as a blaster and there a blast, or build it to sneak hide and such and still do your job. I like the trickster, its one of my all time favorite classes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We have a rogue/sorcerer/arcane trickster in our party. He sucks, but only because the player is a complete moron (he's gone the last eight levels without thinking to make a single sneak attack!).
I look at his character sheet and I can clearly see how awesome it is and how super awesome it will be in the future--that is if the player wasn't such a moron.
Is he a new player? Does he know he can get extra damage dice with any ranged attack spell? Ray of frost is nice if you can add sneak attack to it. It's fairly useless, otherwise.
If he knows that and never does it, he's the moron. If he doesn't understand the mechanics, you (and the other players) are just mean! LOL!
He's been roleplaying for nearly 10 years. I honestly think he just (somehow) forgets that he can do it.
Half the party was eviscerated by a trio of back to back blade scythe traps. It wasn't until AFTER he was in the negatives and trapped in between two of the extremely lethal traps that he remembered that he could disarm the traps, being a rogue and all. If the party fighter didn't have a reach weapon with which to sunder the three scythe blades the rogue/sorcerer would have died there. Yes, he's a moron, but it's part of what makes him endearing.
Having said that, he's still better than the "party survivalist" who is min/maxed as much as he knows how in order to not die. What does he do? He activates four known summon monster traps (which I divined with detect magic) simultaneously, instantly putting our piddly 6th-level party in a tiny room with 4 large elementals of various kinds. Damn near TPK'd on that one thanks to our "survival expert." For someone who didn't want to die, that was just plain dumb (not to mention out of character).
What are you expecting? i like the class it does what its ment to do, gain some sneak attack on your rays. You get more skills, and retain most of your caster power. yes will be behind a pure caster BUT your not ment to out perform them, or a pure rogue. Btw who ever said ray damage wasn't impressive... get a ray does 1d6/lvl(i know a few just to lazy open my book) now quicken that so its 2 lets assume level 10...
10d6 ray+4d6 sneak attack x2
so if land both rays, your effectively dealing 14d6 damage on your opening round or when your flanking the enemy. Now, lets compare that to a pure level 10 wizard.
only doing 10d6 x2 so losing out on 4d6 sneak attack damage.
assuming your allowed to take practiced caster, if not losing 3 caster levels in damage but still coming off 11d6 total damage. If your allowed to use some of old 3.5 stuff....well i once designed a rogue/mage could deal something like 30-40d6 damage x2 at level 20 thats epic level damage. Anyway class is fine it works fine does what its ment to do, end of story.
Now add suprise spell and can suddenly throw a fire ball and deal aoe damage and sneak attack damage. Build an arcane trickster as a blaster and there a blast, or build it to sneak hide and such and still do your job. I like the trickster, its one of my all time favorite classes.
The capstone ability rocks. You can actually play a blaster who can actually sneak up on the enemy and blast for serious damage, for the first time since 3.0.
Sure, it's circumstantial, but still. The BBEG will be hurting if your AT can get close and blast just as the rest of party chimes in.
The plethora of available class-skill points trounces even the bard. Only 4 skills aren't class skills for a rog/wiz: handle animal, heal, ride, and survival. Spend one point, gain 3 more in any other skill.
The AT can "aid another" quite well.
This is where the "multiclassing is stupid" arguments start to break down. A character's contributions aren't only in-combat. Sometimes, somebody has to read that language, bypass that trap, swim that river, unlock that door, bluff the guards, look like some other race, appear competent with light armor and weapons, etc.
A good player can do surprising things with the class.
|
|
The capstone ability rocks. You can actually play a blaster who can actually sneak up on the enemy and blast for serious damage, for the first time since 3.0.
Sure, it's circumstantial, but still. The BBEG will be hurting if your AT can get close and blast just as the rest of party chimes in.
The plethora of available class-skill points trounces even the bard. Only 4 skills aren't class skills for a rog/wiz: handle animal, heal, ride, and survival. Spend one point, gain 3 more in any other skill.
The AT can "aid another" quite well.This is where the "multiclassing is stupid" arguments start to break down. A character's contributions aren't only in-combat. Sometimes,...
Ignoring for a minute the fact that blasting spells are awful, the wizard can quicken a second spell in that same round, or just empower a spell and outdamage the arcane trickster either way, he has more spells to burn and higher level spells. Also, you have to deal with a lot of levels of being the guy who is almost as good as everyone else in the party for a long time before you get to the capstone. Then ...
when the capstone finally kicks in at 17th level the party wizard is casting 9th level spells and you are casting 7th level spells... woo congratulations your capstone doesn't even compare to the normal progression of the wizard.
Actually, you can do Arcane Trickster with only losing 2 levels of spell progression, not 3. Wiz 4 Rog 1 can have the five ranks in Stealth to qualify for Assassin, and Wiz 4/Rog 1/Asn 1 has the +2d6 sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
Now, that means being NE or CE, sure.
Actually, you can do Arcane Trickster with only losing 2 levels of spell progression, not 3. Wiz 4 Rog 1 can have the five ranks in Stealth to qualify for Assassin, and Wiz 4/Rog 1/Asn 1 has the +2d6 sneak attack to qualify for Arcane Trickster.
Not for everyone, sadly. For that you have to be EVIL with a capitol . :P
|
|
I mean, first off that's very smart to get rid of the worst of the problem (spell level losses); but there is a tradeoff on that as well... a Wiz 4 / Rog 1 / Assassin 1 / Arcane Trickster 1 has a whopping bab of +2 at 7th level. Good luck hitting even touch attack....
And I guess that may be what seperates this out. Going Eldrich Knight, you have an easy transition anyone can make from Wiz 5 to Fighter 1 to Eldrich Knight 1. Here you've lost 3 BAB, but you'll never lose any ever again. And you lost only 2 levels of caster without having to be evil. That's enough where a talent can actually keep you casting at the proper level.
You lose so much less from your two classes here; once you hit the class you get full attack progression, some nice feats, and full spellcasting (this still isn't considered as good as full spellcasters, but it's much, much, closer). In comparison this travesty of a class probably loses 3 spellcaster levels (2 only for the evil player), and 2d6 off their sneak attack; in exchanage for, well, not a lot until 17th level.
They just need... something; dunno what is balanced here. I'd go out on a limb and say require only 1d6 sneak attack and eliminate spellcasting from the 1st level of the class (a la Eldrich Knight) and you'd go a long way to fixing them to the right level.
Fact of the matter is is that if you're obsssed with caster level and 9th level spells, you're not going to be happy with almost any of the split class PrCs. But if you can get outside of that constraining box and try to build organic instead of cheeseing for max caster levels you can get a class that's really fun to play and can contribute in a meaningful level.
Dude, shhhh! You're going to rouse the ire of the Stat Lords. Don't you know that it's mathematically impossible to have any fun playing a suboptimal build? You and the fighter'll just be all "man I wish I could do something" while the full casters are all "PEAOW PEAOW!! I can alter reality! Suck quickened empowered wish, CR appropriate monsters!"
Zo
Dude, shhhh! You're going to rouse the ire of the Stat Lords.
Someone call for a sonic screwdriver?
Fact of the matter is is that if you're obsssed with caster level and 9th level spells, you're not going to be happy with almost any of the split class PrCs. But if you can get outside of that constraining box and try to build organic instead of cheeseing for max caster levels you can get a class that's really fun to play and can contribute in a meaningful level.Dude, shhhh! You're going to rouse the ire of the Stat Lords. Don't you know that it's mathematically impossible to have any fun playing a suboptimal build? You and the fighter'll just be all "man I wish I could do something" while the full casters are all "PEAOW PEAOW!! I can alter reality! Suck quickened empowered wish, CR appropriate monsters!"
Zo
I don't have anything to add, but I would like to congratulate you on being hilarious.
Most discussions about the strength and/or weaknesses of a class deal with CharOp style discussions of combat effectiveness, D&D is largely a combat focused game and sucking in combat tends to reduce player enjoyment. As a result a huge % of discussions on the internet revolve around using math to determine maximum combat effectiveness. While utility is considered to a degree it's generally limited to discussions about how the wizard class aka Batman can replicate the non-combat abilities of x number of other classes. Other than that utility builds present a lot of problems for analysis.
The problem with utility builds is that it's incredibly hard to quantify "utility" and the actual game effectiveness of "utility builds" is way, way too dependent on DM play style.
If your games are combat light/exploration heavy/trap-puzzle heavy/social heavy the Arcane Trickster is a pretty solid class. However if your games are combat heavy and light in the other aspects of the game then the arcane trickster can be disappointing.
Personally I think that CharOp calculations really only impact a very small number of games but when you are talking about the strengths and weaknesses of a class and build it's best to compare optimal vs optimal.
|
|
If your games are combat light/exploration heavy/trap-puzzle heavy/social heavy the Arcane Trickster is a pretty solid class. However if your games are combat heavy and light in the other aspects of the game then the arcane trickster can be disappointing.
Personally I think that CharOp calculations really only impact a very small number of games but when you are talking about the strengths and weaknesses of a class and build it's best to compare optimal vs optimal.
Arcane trickster fails in the numerical char-op sense and it fails is the very real, I've been playing a character for the year way also. The closer you get to the class the less workable the character is, you slowly drift further and further away from the rest of the class in usefulness to the party. Ever time I've leveled up I see this. The wizard is getting 4th level spells and Ooo look I get 2nd level spells. Beyond having some amazing skills (which I could have with straight rogue) the character is pretty much a 5th wheel. He doesn't do anything which isn't vastly outshined by someone else.
If you are talking about utility, stealth, traps, etc, then a strait rogue or a rogue 1/ ranger is just as good without dealing with the downsides of this class.
|
I've seen a Trickster used to devastating effectiveness, both in and out of combat. However, I think that in an entirely Pathfinder game, their combat potency has gone down quite a bit. Back in 3.5, they had all the Orbs (including the Lesser versions) and Thunderlance to totally tear-up the battlefield. Without the 3.5 splat books or WotC's Spell Compendium, there are far fewer ranged touch spells for them to exploit, which also makes the capstone that much more essential.
But even without such tools, they can be quite effective. In fact, the most comical (and still devastatingly effective) use I've seen of Impromptu Sneak Attack involved Telekinesis & a 300 lb anvil.
Developer
|
I'm seeing a lot of negative opinions of the arcane trickster here, which is really too bad because the concept of a trickster-mage is pretty neat. I'm curious to know what you think would make the class better.
It's a prestige class so yes, it's not going to have the maximum potential that a pure rogue or caster will have, but that's sort of the point: it's pretty good being at both, but not the best at being either. So I have a few questions: Do you think the arcane trickster's abilities make up for its lack of pure roguish/arcane power? If not, what do you think would make the class more viable?
@ Mike Kimmel: How to make it better?
First on the list is giving it the rogue BAB progression. He won't be casting True Strike all the time. This doesn't "fix" it, but it's a step in the right direction. Rogue/Bard combos stay viable. wiz/sor types get a little better with their attacks. A slight compensation for sucking for so long.
Getting into the class at the cost of fewer caster levels would help, too. Perhaps require Evasion, rather than 2d6 sneak attack bonus. Qualify with 2 levels of monk! LOL!
Start after rog2/wiz 3, or rog2/bard or sor 4. Two caster levels behind is no fun, but it beats 3, and lets you shorten the "I totally suck at everything" stage by a level. This would allow more build options, too. I'm still looking at the monk...
Stage the "tricky spells" ability to start at 1/day at first level. Why should he wait 5 levels to do something that's thematic to the class? Wouldn't break anything.
Move the sneak attack bonus to start at first level instead of second.
Some people will always see PrCs as underpowered, but like any class, they can pull off a few tricks of their own with a little imagination. A self-buffing sneak-thief is hard to stop.
While getting in hurts the aberrant bloodline does well due to its extended reach with melee touch spells. This gives the flanking option back without requiring you to be in the first line.
However this does require the four levels of sorcerer and the usual problems with being close to melee.
While getting in hurts the aberrant bloodline does well due to its extended reach with melee touch spells. This gives the flanking option back without requiring you to be in the first line.
However this does require the four levels of sorcerer and the usual problems with being close to melee.
Take the lunge feat! XD
|
|
You're going to see negative opinions here because this board is full of posters that will not settle for anything less than 100 percent spellcasting capability in a character that includes magic. I played an Arcane Trickster before Paizo buffed it up and I can tell you that it did not "SUCK", because our games are more than just combat, combat, combat, which is practically the only dimension the Charop crowd seems to consider. Skills and interaction play a major part as well. The more dimensional a campaign is... the more a character like the Arcane Trickster can thrive.
In short my answer to your question is... Hell Yes.
My questions is which of those skill related things wouldn't be done just as well with a straight rogue or straight bard? I am not 100% charop, but if a class isn't solid in combat it needs to have some kind of edge out of combat and I'm not seeing it. The rogue and the bard are effective in combat and just as effective as the Trickster OUT of combat, that is my issue.
What does the trickster bring to the table out of combat that's so awesome? I'm not seeing it.
I've already pointed out the one place where AT is pretty decent, when you have a one/ two person party and need to fill multiple roles.
Also, note the thread title is "how is the Arcane Trickster working out for you. In my case it's been a mess. Maybe that's because my GM runs a high combat low RP campaign?
What does the trickster bring to the table out of combat that's so awesome? I'm not seeing it.
He's a self-buffing invisible scout/thief. A rogue can do the same once his UMD ranks are high enough, but for the AT, invisible stealth and stealthy spellcasting require no items at all.
With all but 4 skills as class skills (rogue/wizard), and 4 points per level (base), he can do whatever other rogues and bards do, and has a good chance of "aiding another" whenever it's needed. He's got UMD to match a rogue or bard, if he wants, so wand-healer is another out-of-combat function for him.
In a group with other casters, he's got bread-and-butter spells to back up the stronger casters, letting them spend their actions on more powerful spells.
I agree that PrCs, as they stand currently, are better for small parties or solo adventuring. When spells are low, or completely used up, he can still act like a rogue and contribute that way. He's got skills and abilities to help the group survive that a straight caster wouldn't have. If nothing else, he can help the fighter get a flank and maybe even hit, himself. There's always the option of sneak attacking mooks with 0-level spells for decent damage, too. The wand of invisibility will always work.