I had been stating up fighting caster character ideas recently, and came to an interesting discovery...
At 9th level just about everyone from bards to eldritch knights to battle clerics are about equal in melee combat.
Here are some basic numbers:
Base attack: +6
Strength: +4
Feats: +1
Weapon bonus: +2
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Total = +13
When it comes to damage:
Weapon: 1d12+2 (half-orc for proficiency)
Strength: +6
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Total= 1d12+8
Ahh yes, but what about the buffs and feats:
I'll skip bulls strength, and assume that each character has a +2 strength item.
Bard:
Bard song: +2/+2
Arcane strike: 0/+2
Heroism (2nd level): +2/0 or Good Hope: +2/+2
Cleric
Divine Favor: +3/+3 or Divine Power: +3/+3 (+hps, more)
Eldritch knight
Arcane strike: 0/+2
Weapon specialization: 0/+2
Heroism (3rd): +2/0
So everyone is at average +3/+3 with one round of buffing.
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Total Averages: ~+16 to hit / ~1d12+11 damage.
Fighter Average: ~+18 to hit/ ~1d12+12 damage.
The Bard has the advantage of being able to do bard song as a move action, and many of his buffing abilities affect party members as well.
The clerics buff spells ramp up and provide additional abilities. Righteous Might (5th) is nice, but that would probably be the only spell the cleric could cast at 9th level. There are various domain options that add nice benefits like the destruction and war domains.
The EK walks around all day at +2/+2 from feats. He has the most limited self buffing ability with haste and heroism being almost the only options. At later levels I think he would pull ahead as his base attack (and "fighter level" increases non-stop, and he gains access to the various polymorph spells. He also gets interesting options from his wizard school abilities.
The cleric and EK can have Enlarge Person on their spell lists, the bard would need to do an easy UMD check. All three could choose Vital Strike as their 9th level feat, but the EK must choose between Vital Strike and Weapon Specialization.
This is NOT intended to be a direct mathematical DPS comparison!!! Such a comparison really misses the point of choosing any of these classes. How much damage do you do to a frost giant? NONE! You Hold, Charm, or Dominate him. This was based on building 15pt buy characters who are fairly well rounded, and capable of being played from 1st - 20th level.
I haven't figured out the melee Druid, or Dragon Disciple yet, but I would guess they are close.
The key with gish-type builds/comparisons is always good spells with long spell durations.
The cleric has Win here because of Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic. The EK can Greater Magic Weapon and Armor, and better BAB progression. The bard basically buffs via song.
==Aelryinth
I think most people would say that this comparison (melee combat capability) is not really a valid test of a character's true utility.
EK
Yes, Wiz 5/Fighter 1/EK 3 has +6 BAB and he probably has weapon specialization (unlocked at level 9-convenient).
He's got at least 1 4th level spell (good) but the single class wizard has 1 5th level spell plus 1 extra 2nd,3rd, and 4th level spell memorized.
The EK probably has some sort of mithral chain shirt or mithral breastplate at 9th but is suffering at least marginal Arcane Spellcasting penalties. AC is probably substandard unless buffed.
Saves are ok, but not stellar. HPs are dubious for a frontline fighter even with improved EK HD.
Skills suck.
Bard
Also a +6 BAB, is a pretty good self and group buffer.
Less of a spellcaster than an optimized EK but 3rd level spells aren't horrible.
Mithral chain or Mithral Breastplate no arcane penalties. Probably has a higher dex score than the EK. AC is likely a little bit higher (but not by a huge margin).
Saves are ok, 2 good saves are nice low fort save can be concerning. HPs are probably better than the EK. Probably still not a tank.
Skills good. Class Abilities good.
Cleric
+6 BAB, excellent self and group buffer.
Better spellcaster than EK or Bard even though core only cleric spells aren't as good as core only Arcane.
Almost certainly has dumped dex so probably has mithral heavy + heavy shield. AC definitely better than average.
Saves are good, 2 good saves plus prime requisite stat is wisdom so will saves really rock. HPs are good + spontaneous healing.
Skills suck. Class Abilities including domain and channel pretty much rock.
Honestly I'm pretty sure if I'm entirely going for optimized play I'm going with the cleric at level 9. The EK does begin to close the gap at high levels (arcane vs divine spell list) but the cleric probably maintains an edge.
That's not to say that a gish character or an arcane skill monkey isn't fun to play but that I think your setup is a bit deceptive. I also notice you aren't comparing Wiz 5/Fighter 1/EK 1 vs a 7th level cleric or 7th level bard where the power differential is larger.
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The key with gish-type builds/comparisons is always good spells with long spell durations.
The cleric has Win here because of Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic. The EK can Greater Magic Weapon and Armor, and better BAB progression. The bard basically buffs via song.
==Aelryinth
Now, now; if you let in divine metamagic, you need to let in sudden metamagic, practiced spellcaster, the feat that lets you take 10 on concentration checks, and the prestige classes that let gish types cast a free quickened spell whenever they make a full attack.
Divine Metamagic = Broken = not in pathfinder core. Free quickened Spells = Broken = not in core. Old Style Wildshape = Broken = not in core. If you let one in you have to let all in, which changes the comparison.
And if you let all in, straight wizard / incantatrix wins everything except for pun-pun.
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The key with gish-type builds/comparisons is always good spells with long spell durations.
The cleric has Win here because of Persistent spell and Divine Metamagic. The EK can Greater Magic Weapon and Armor, and better BAB progression. The bard basically buffs via song.
==Aelryinth
Now, now; if you let in divine metamagic, you need to let in sudden metamagic, practiced spellcaster, the feat that lets you take 10 on concentration checks, and the prestige classes that let gish types cast a free quickened spell whenever they make a full attack.
Divine Metamagic = Broken = not in pathfinder core. Free quickened Spells = Broken = not in core. Old Style Wildshape = Broken = not in core. If you let one in you have to let all in, which changes the comparison.
And if you let all in, straight wizard / incantatrix wins everything except for pun-pun.
Divine Metamagic is not broken. It helped fix a problem with turning, because not all clerics care about undead. PF is not as bad in that regard, but Divine Metamagic would be a better fit than any Channel feat for a Cleric of Knowledge, Magic, Planning, or things like that. Also note, that Clerics can not take Extra Turning (channeling) more than once now, which really cuts down on the number of Divine Metamagic uses. Not at all Broken. In 3.5, divine Metamagic could be used in a combination that some people found broken, specifically with the item NightStick, which allowed a cleric to use divine Metamagic a lot more than they should be able to.
Also, a huge selling point of PF is that it allows you to use 3.5 material with it. If YOU houserule it out that is fine, but that is not everyone else.
OK, lets take a look at some of the other areas...
Bard
AC - Best option is +2 Elven chain (8 AC)
Assuming Dex bonus of +1, basic magic items +3 total, and dodge feat:
AC= 23
Cleric
AC - Best option is +3 Breastplate (9 AC)
or +2 Full Plate (11 AC)(feat required)
Assuming Dex bonus of +1, basic magic items +3 total:
AC=23 or 25
Eldritch Knight
AC - Best option is +2 Mithril Chain Shirt (6 AC)(feat required)
or +2 Elven chain (8AC)(2 feats required)
Assuming Dex bonus of +1, basic magic items +3 total, and dodge feat:
AC= 21 or 23
All would also benefit from a +3 buckler as well.
The Bard and EK have Blur and Mirror Image on their spell lists, and would probably rely on those for defense.
Skills
Bard: 54pts
Cleric: 18 or 27 if human
EK: 54pts or 63 if human
HP
Bard 8+5*8+9con+9class=66
Cleric 8+5*8+0con+9class =66
EK 10+4*5+6*3+0con+5class =53
Hmmm, might have the EK be a half elf for the "Multitalented" racial trait. That would also give a skill bonus.
All benefit equally from toughness.
Divine Metamagic is not broken.
I don't even know what to say to this.
The skill thing above also has to be addressed from the 'mage justification issue.'
To wit, Mages don't need skill points because they have a high Intelligence.
Uh? Boosting Int 5 times over 20 levels works out to about +24 skill points. A Mage with starting Int of 18 has fewer skillpoints then a Rogue off the street...and Wizards are supposed to be tremendously learned individuals. I always awarded 2 extra skill points for knowledge skills only in my campaigns..
So, on the basis of that Justification...
Cleric, Wis Prime Req, no skills bonus.
Gish EK, Wiz factor...Int bonus to skills. So the Gish does get to make up some ground on skill points.
Bard, Charisma Prime Req, skills bonus via Perform (versatility, not specialization).
Divine Metamagic is not broken.I don't even know what to say to this.
I do. Divine magic was the gateway drug to broken cleric metamagic. It is never allowed in any game I run
Clerics are/were arguably one of the best classes in the game before divine metamagic shenanigans, yes turn undead was a limited utility class ability but tbh many class abilities are extremely limited, I didn't really see any reason to buff the cleric class further through being able to power cheap metamagic via turn undead.
I'm not saying that the concept wasn't potentially worthwhile but the execution especially with the various exploits like the candle trick + persistent made clerics able to rock persistent buffs including 3.x righteous might far in advance of their ability to do so otherwise.
Even if you limited DMM to uses that the cleric already had a slot this only postpones the grief. Simply put metamagic should come at a cost (either preparation cost or the cost of purchasing a rod of metamagic).
Also, a huge selling point of PF is that it allows you to use 3.5 material with it. If YOU houserule it out that is fine, but that is not everyone else.
Allowing 3.5 material in PF is the exception, not the standard. If you want to houserule 3.5 material in, that's fine.
Also, a huge selling point of PF is that it allows you to use 3.5 material with it. If YOU houserule it out that is fine, but that is not everyone else.Allowing 3.5 material in PF is the exception, not the standard. If you want to houserule 3.5 material in, that's fine.
Agreed. Allowing 3.5 stuff in is houeruling it in and is fine, but should not be an expected thing.
Bard
AC - Best option is +2 Elven chain (8 AC)
Assuming Dex bonus of +1, basic magic items +3 total, and dodge feat:
AC= 23
Just to be sure, Elven Chain is (feat required) for bards - they do not have medium armor proficiency.
Also.. Best is Mithril Breastplate > Elven Chain (kinda unfortunately).
Bard
AC - Best option is +2 Elven chain (8 AC)
Assuming Dex bonus of +1, basic magic items +3 total, and dodge feat:
AC= 23Just to be sure, Elven Chain is (feat required) for bards - they do not have medium armor proficiency.
Also.. Best is Mithril Breastplate > Elven Chain (kinda unfortunately).
No elven chain is specifically light armor... so is Celestial chain mail. These are the only two "medium light" armors that specifically state that they are light armor.
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your comparing them before eldritch knights get their defining ability, Spell Critical. Which means in the heat of battle, a good eldritch knight can do a full round of attacks, AND cast an offensive spell. Hmm, the cleric attacking 3 times(4 buffed) in a round, vs the EK attacking 3 times and casting chain lightning?
Both have their advantages, the EK's being the swift spells as part of a full attack sequence.
Umm if you arcane strike or use arcane armor...then no, you do not get to use spell critical...at all. Same if you cast a quicken spell. Or any swift/immediate action spells. Spell critical just does not work unless you houserule it to work as a free action.
By that level you buy yourself some nice magic elven chain mail and take the Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Armory Mastery feats. You could also go mithral Brestplate, and try not to roll ones. Or, mithral chain shirt, and only one feat.
Also, magic mithral bucklers make nice little AC boosters, and have 0% spell failure.
Or just cast mage armor, shield, displacement, mirror image, blink, improved invisibility, etc. for defense.
You can't crit on command.
You're not giving up the +5 from arcane strike once for the crit, you have to give up on it forever.
Also, bards get more skills then you give credit to. Versatile performer.
My issue with EK is that it doesn't come into fruition until a lot later, whereas bard and cleric START good.
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Umm if you arcane strike or use arcane armor...then no, you do not get to use spell critical...at all. Same if you cast a quicken spell. Or any swift/immediate action spells. Spell critical just does not work unless you houserule it to work as a free action.your comparing them before eldritch knights get their defining ability, Spell Critical. Which means in the heat of battle, a good eldritch knight can do a full round of attacks, AND cast an offensive spell. Hmm, the cleric attacking 3 times(4 buffed) in a round, vs the EK attacking 3 times and casting chain lightning?
Both have their advantages, the EK's being the swift spells as part of a full attack sequence.
SO you would rather add +1-5 to a weapon, a bonus that doesnt stack with a magic weapon...which i mean really if your a combat focused character and any level above 3 you will have...for casting a spell as a swift action for free? Sure, quicken is nice. But it also increases the spell level by 4. You can't quicken a chain lightning, where as you can cast it as a spell critical.
And again, arcane failure? ha.
10 base
13 dex
8 armor bracers
4 shield spell
5 deflection item
1 haste
5 natural armor item
___
46, higher then most enemies can hit consitantly. add in displacement, mirror image, and the ability to stay out of reach(can your bard or cleric fly?) and i really dont see how you need to worry about arcane failure.
Okay...arcane strike does UNTYPED damage bonus...i.e. it stacks with EVERYTHING else. You are giving up +4-5 damage on every hit for an off chance that you crit.
And umm...what the hell kind of game do you play that your EK not only has the high int score for casting spells and has 36 dex?!? Assuming non ridculious stats, mithril breast plate +5 is the best armor at +11 ac and max dex of +5. Bracers don't become better til you get to 28 dex. And how does your EK have haste up at all times? And then there is the money issue. An EK needs money for spells AND all the swag you just listed...and probably some 125k shots for inherant bonus wish spells. And even if you will have that much money by level 17+, that is a WHOLE mess of levels where your gonna have sub optimal AC as a front liner because you have to get AC from expensive bracers of armor vs actual armor.
Advice. Never look at a fully buffed cleric vs fully buffed bard.
- none of them will have the time to cast all their buffs.
A cleric can cast spells useing heavy armor and he can heal himslef during battle.
Playing RAW you need one hand free to cast spells, so animated shield or buckler.
Using animated shield: Activating is a move action and it lasts for the following 4 rounds, then it drops.
Using buckler: no shild AC the round you casted the spell.
arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.. meaning the bonus it provides is less then that of casting Greater Magic weapon a few hours before a fight. SOOOO thats a pointless comparison.
[...]
arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.
Jason says so, James says so and by RAW "arcane strike does UNTYPED damage bonus...i.e. it stacks with EVERYTHING else".For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage.
and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
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You can't crit on command.
You're not giving up the +5 from arcane strike once for the crit, you have to give up on it forever.
Also, bards get more skills then you give credit to. Versatile performer.
My issue with EK is that it doesn't come into fruition until a lot later, whereas bard and cleric START good.
arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.. meaning the bonus it provides is less then that of casting Greater Magic weapon a few hours before a fight. SOOOO thats a pointless comparison.
Also, only an idiot would attempt to use a crit based ability without a wide crit range weapon. a falcion, kukri, and a few other weapons attached to the right character and equipment can statistically deliver a crit atleast once a round against the average opponent.
1) arcane strike is untype damage bonus...it does indeed stack with magic weapon damage bonus.
2) high threats are nice...but your chances of confirmed crits goes down with each attack even if you do roll in the threat zone. Getting a crit each almost every round doesn't happen unless the thing your fighting is a cakewalk anyways. Even then luck is still involved.
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arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.. meaning the bonus it provides is less then that of casting Greater Magic weapon a few hours before a fight. SOOOO thats a pointless comparison.
[...]arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.
Jason says so, James says so and by RAW "arcane strike does UNTYPED damage bonus...i.e. it stacks with EVERYTHING else".For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage.
and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
Don't you mean does?
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Allright....I have to say that if you want straight up melee battle potential, then go Cleric. Clerics have the best defensive capabilities and in melee: "offense make great games, but defense wins bowls".
But the bard is so much cooler...the master of non-combat situations, but he can hold his own in battle as well.
Don't you mean does?
arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.. meaning the bonus it provides is less then that of casting Greater Magic weapon a few hours before a fight. SOOOO thats a pointless comparison.
[...]arcane strike doesnt stack with a magic weapon.
Jason says so, James says so and by RAW "arcane strike does UNTYPED damage bonus...i.e. it stacks with EVERYTHING else".For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage.
and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."
By bad. I meant it does stack with magic weapon.
Allright....I have to say that if you want straight up melee battle potential, then go Cleric. Clerics have the best defensive capabilities and in melee: "offense make great games, but defense wins bowls".
But the bard is so much cooler...the master of non-combat situations, but he can hold his own in battle as well.
+1
And Cleric have more spells per day and higher spell slots so they can quicken them,...and they can heal them self.HEAVY ARMOR. ;-)
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All right, divine metamagic was banned from LGR, where degenerate builds were rampant. Divine metamagic-Persist and quicken basically upped your level extensively (hey look, I just cast a 10th level spell at 4th level, and now permanently have straight BAB and +6 to strength).
My 3.5 cleric DM, Persits, and all the extra turnings I could. Kord ended up worshiping HIM (before the banhammer came down :)).
Ahem, with all that said Clerics of PFS (or especially Oracles) are the best self-buffers in the game. If he knew he was being built for going into this melée, he'd Divine Power/Quickened Divine Might and move in. Other two would haste; bard would sing. Divine loses to Arcane in most areas, but not self buffing. Bards never are great at being tossed in arenas; their big boon is help the world. A Druid would crush the "Gish Melee" fight, even if you disallow / he didn't take a pet.
Allright....I have to say that if you want straight up melee battle potential, then go Cleric. Clerics have the best defensive capabilities and in melee: "offense make great games, but defense wins bowls".
But the bard is so much cooler...the master of non-combat situations, but he can hold his own in battle as well.
In other gish threads I have compared the Cleric's spell list to the wizard's. Wizards get better defensive abilities. At low: leves Mirror Image, blur, displacement. At higher levels: stoneskin and flame shield. The cleric gets none of these. Even his buffs lose out at later levels to standard magic items, and both the Cleric and Gish will be using the same armor. The only difference is the shield, which is more likely that a cleric will have, since they are proficient with fewer 2 handers.
For offensive capability, the cleric gets no buffs that are the equivalent to the various form spells except riteous might, which is only ballanced against the lower end. Wizards also get access to Haste, which makes up for much of the benefit of Divine Power. Compare their lists. The wizard comes out ahead for a self-buffer, they just don't power up their pure damage straight up with spells and use other abilities like arcane strike to ballance themselves out.
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In other gish threads I have compared the Cleric's spell list to the wizard's. Wizards get better defensive abilities. At low: leves Mirror Image, blur, displacement. At higher levels: stoneskin and flame shield. The cleric gets none of these. Even his buffs lose out at later levels to standard magic items, and both the Cleric and Gish will be using the same armor. The only difference is the shield, which is more likely that a cleric will have, since they are proficient with fewer 2 handers.
For offensive capability, the cleric gets no buffs that are the equivalent to the various form spells except riteous might, which is only ballanced against the lower end. Wizards also get access to Haste, which makes up for much of the benefit of Divine Power. Compare their lists. The wizard comes out ahead for a self-buffer, they just don't power up their pure damage straight up with spells and use other abilities like arcane strike to ballance themselves out.
The problem is a lot of the wizards buffs are minutes/ level or rounds/ level and unbuffed eldritch knight's martial capacity is pretty mediocre.
Divine power is also rounds/ level but it gives multiple abilities in a single spell. Going from zero to hero takes the cleric 1 standard action. Also, if the wizard gets hit by greater dispel he's going to be stripped naked in a hurry.
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I love love love mobility and dimension door...
You keep talking about flying as if it's exclusive to wizards which it is not. Air Walk is 10 min/ level which means the cleric doesn't have to throw it down right before combat and it's arguably better than Fly. Considering first level EK has 3rd level spells and an equal level cleric has 4th level spells I would say the flying advantage is actually on the clerics side.
Dimension dooring away is a delaying tactic which most benefits the party with more spells and healing which is the cleric. FWIW Travel domain clerics get the entire teleport tree including dimension door and a nice short hop ability they can use as a move action (I think conjuration wizards get that too). The travel cleric gets dimension door at 7th level and the Eldritch Knight doesn't get it until 9th.
Eldritch knight is a wizard that's decent with a sword, but he is first and foremost a wizard.
Divine Metamagic is not broken.I don't even know what to say to this.
You say, hey man, you are totally right.
The broken cleric combo in 3.5 was nightsticks + divine metamagic + persistant spell. That allowed you to make all of your buff spells last 24 hours.
Of those 3, persistant spell was the most overpowering. Making a 1 minute buff spell last 24 hours is a huge increase in power.
Nightsticks were a cheap way to get turning attempts, that made the cost of persistant spell go way down.
Finally, there were some key changes from 3.5 to PF, that indirectly nerfed the power of divine metamagic.
First, channel energy is much more useful than in turn undead was in 3.5. That alone made divine metamagic a weaker feat. For example, a level 5 cleric using divine metamagic to extend a spell just used up 6d6 worth of healing.
Second, the stacking of cleric buff spells was changed. Divine power and divine favor no longer stack.
I have no problem with allowing divine metamagic in my campaigns.
I would allow nightsticks, but I would increase the cost to reflect how much more useful channel energy is than turn undead.
Persistant spell is the one metamagic I would keep an eye on, but with all of the other changes in PF, I think it would be ok as well.
If a cleric is burning 7 channel energy uses to make a buff last 24 hours, that is a lot of healing they are giving up.
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Divine Metamagic is roughly equivalent to the generalist wizard's ability to use metamagic on the fly and should probably be limited to the same restrictions.
The problem with using nightsticks to fuel metamagic is they don't scale in price the way metamagic rods do. The rods scale 2 ways, for spell level (minor standard and greater) and for the number of levels you can boost a spell. Being able to burn 12 night sticks to do the equivalent of a greater metamagic rod of quicker is a big loophole.
OK, lets just leave Divine Metamagic, Nightsticks, and all the other poorly thought out crap from those later books out of the discussion. I would like to keep this focused on what you can do in Pathfinder Core ONLY.
It is pretty much a waste of time to speculate how things would play out much beyond 13-15 level. Bards may be fairly predicable (not really), but clerics can vary tremendously based on choice of domain. When you consider that EK's can be any combination of Bard, Sorcerer (bloodlines), Wizard (schools), and Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, making blanket statements about what they can and can't do is a joke. There are few ideas that can't be achieved by picking the right bloodline, school specialization, magic items/spells, etc.
The other factor to remember in these discussions is that you are a caster. Chances are that there is already a another fighter and caster in the party. Your not trying to be better then every other party member at everything. You aren't going to be Captain AC, melee damage, mobility, and spell DCs, nor should you try.
I love love love mobility and dimension door...
You keep talking about flying as if it's exclusive to wizards which it is not. Air Walk is 10 min/ level which means the cleric doesn't have to throw it down right before combat and it's arguably better than Fly. Considering first level EK has 3rd level spells and an equal level cleric has 4th level spells I would say the flying advantage is actually on the clerics side.
Dimension dooring away is a delaying tactic which most benefits the party with more spells and healing which is the cleric. FWIW Travel domain clerics get the entire teleport tree including dimension door and a nice short hop ability they can use as a move action (I think conjuration wizards get that too). The travel cleric gets dimension door at 7th level and the Eldritch Knight doesn't get it until 9th.
Eldritch knight is a wizard that's decent with a sword, but he is first and foremost a wizard.
+1
The cleric has heavy armor, good fort. saves and good will saves and wisdom as casting stat and healing and channelingPoor reflex saves is no problem. Cleric has Resist Energy and protections from energy, two good saves the bard lacks.
As for self buffs the cleric has:
DF and DP
Prot. from evil and Magig C. Against evil, (very useful spells), Magic weapon, Greater magic weapon and Align Weapon (A very nice spell), Magic Vestment, divine shield, bless, Prayer, freedom of movement, Death Ward (A very nice spell), Righteous Might, Spell Immunity, Disrupting Weapon, Holy Aura,
and stuff like Invisibility Purge, Water Breathing, Heal, Harm, Slay Living, Dispel evil (great spell), Wall of Stone.
And blast stuff like: Flame strike, Holy Smite, Holy Word, Blade Barrier, Earthquake, Fire Storm. Most of the balst spells are evocation som spell focus is a nice feat.
And the cleric has more spells slots and higher spell slots and can prepare ANY spell from her spell list. The bard has only a limitet selection of spells known.
Bards has a lot of realy cool and useful stuff. But if you want damage, go cleric.
Our current 11 lvl party is an a fight with some devils that ambushed us. Align Weapon is so good, and our druid hits hard but can bypass DR.
Our fighter and monk so so happy our cleric actually prepare Align Weapon.
..and the cleic has domain powers and domain spells.
Being able to burn 12 night sticks to do the equivalent of a greater metamagic rod of quicker is a big loophole.That's the problem with people using nightsticks.
They don't work that way.
If a cleric has a 16 CHA without extra turning, then they have 6 turn attempts/day.
If they've got a nightstick then they have 9 turn attempts/day.
If they've used 8 in the day, then without the nightstick they are out and with it they can use 1 more.
They're are not charged items, rather they increase the number of attempts per day that you have. You remove the item, you no longer have that higher number.
If you go with this ruling, nightsticks are not broken in and of themselves.
Next would be house ruling divine metamagic along the lines that later and similar bard feats went with.. you have to be able to cast spells of the level that the metamagic'd spell would normally be at in order to apply it with the feat. Thus to quicken a 1st level spell with DMM you would need to be able to cast 5th level spells, etc.
It's something WOTC learned from experience but didn't want to admit to with errata going backwards. Shame on them.
-James
And then you take 2 domains that give you extra turning, and get 27 turning attempts.
IMO, the bard and cleric are pretty close. The cleric generally has a slight edge in armor use and spells over the bard's performances and spells; if the cleric has the Charm domain (heroism), then it's definitely superior.
The eldritch knight can perform about as well as a bard, but it requires a lot more planning. However, outside of melee, the eldritch knight is probably superior because of the wider range of spells.