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I've run into a probably not that unique problem involving Sleight of Hand and a party with ambivalent, if not outright awful, morals. Lots of time in my game is spent outside of dungeons, time which my players have invested into what I like to call "The Grift and Gaffle mini-game," To make a long story short, they end up either conning NPCs out of their hard earned cash or setting up elaborate, distracting displays so the group's rogues can pilfer peasant's pockets.
Now, I am fine with this, but the problem I have is:
How much gold can somebody get from such a thing?
As the characters advance in level, I'd like to give them more gold, as is appropriate to their level, but it's getting to the point where the player's keep giving me eye-popping looks when they count up their gold; as one player said: "If this is how much a peasant makes, my character might just give up the adventuring biz for good, and go into mud-mucking for himself!"
How much gold do random NPCs have?
Peasants? None.
Any individual walking through town with more money than a meal and a couple drinks should have a reason to be carrying cash around...
Coming back from selling goods at market, on the way to buy expenisve goods from market, just got paid for doing some large job like deckhand or etc.
The average person would likely be carrying a purse of copper. Below average, a few coppers. Above average, a couple of silvers hidden on their person.
Anyone carrying gold should be merchant/artisan/caravan guard/sailor who just got off a long voyage/thief/slumming noble/down on their luck adventurer type person.
check the craft and profession skill descriptions. They show how much an average worker makes a week.
The vast majority of people in any given fantasy city should farmers, fishermen (if water is nearby), crafters (blacksmith, tailor, cobbler etc), and low-level service people (innkeepers, stable boys, cooks, porters, messengers, guards of all types). Most of these people will make some sort of living that is barely enough to afford their lifestyle. A few will be more or less successful.
There will also be beggars, waifs, thieves, cutthroats, bravos, and general scum that don't have honest jobs. Osme of these will be obviously poor, or obviously dangerous, but many of them will look normal.
Outside of those people will be the successful businessmen, merchants, minor government officials, etc... But none of these people will look 'normal'. They'll be wearing more expensive clothes, be in better health, and be taking advantage of the services of the porters, guards, etc.
It would depend on where the slight of hand took place. In a small village, most people aren't going to have much actual cash on them.
In a city, this is going to vary greatly based on the city district. In the docks or the wards where the working class live, its not going to be much different than a village (although they may have a few extra silvers since they are less likely to barter for everything).
On the other hand, in higher class neighborhoods, even runners and messengers might have a few gold on them given to them by their masters to perform some tasks.
To get significant funds, they are going to have to pick their targets well. A nobleman might have a reasonable amount of money on him. An adventurer might have a significant amount of money or (more likely) valuable magic items. A merchant in valuable goods (not your typical food seller) might have a large amount of money, especially if he has just left his shop for the day.
Of course, there are risks involved in that type of target. If the rogue is noticed, he may be heading into prison or combat. Failing to pick-pocket a wizard with a contingency against such things is often hazardous to your health.
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I wouldn't think they would get anything more than 1 gp.
Unless, like suggested above, they have a prime target. Which also makes for a prime plot device.
This practice shouldn't be a form of income to the party. And if they're doing it because they're jackholes you should show them the 'error' of their ways. Heroes shouldn't be taking money from peasants.
It depends. In country villages and even most small towns, the majority of people will have wealth in goods rather than in coin. Much like adventurers usually have *most* of their wealth tied up in magic items and other adventuring tools, farmers will have most of their wealth tied up in livestock, tools, furniture, houses (if they own them), etc. In a small town I would expect very few people carry more than coppers or occasionally a few silvers - enough to pay for a couple rounds of drinks at the tavern, maybe - unless they're specifically going to buy something big. The proverbial peasant keeps most of what coin he does have hidden somewhere in his home as a store against emergencies, rather than walking around with it on him.
In larger cities with more of a cash economy, people will carry money more and more often, but will also be more on their guard against thieves, may be familiar with the basic sort of scams, will have bodyguards, city watches who keep an eye out for this sort of thing, etc.
If you're going to be robbing people in a small medieval village, you'd better hope it's during the yearly fair or sometime when people have at least a little of their cash with them to buy things. Otherwise you'll have a hard time covering your costs, let alone making enough to make it a worthwhile use of time for high level adventurers.
If your characters want to move up in the amount they're taking as they level, they should be moving up in difficulty as well. Just like you get relatively little out of killing CR 1/3 goblins at 10th level experience wise, you should get relatively little robbing country bumpkins. Move to the big city where there are people with real money - but where it will be more of a challenge to lay hands on, also fitting with their higher level.
So to sum up, don't scale the wealth to their level unless you're also scaling the difficulty to their level.
Have Blue bolts smite them from the heavens.
Keep in mind that if you're playing in Golarion, temples of Abadar act as banks. It's very unlikely that anyone random passerby is going to be carrying around enough wealth to make stealing from them worthwhile. As others have said, it'll be the price of a meal or whatever they're going shopping for, plus maybe a little extra if they have it to spend on something that catches their eye. In general, no more than a silver.
It depends on your interaction with the players. They might resent being cut off from their characters' main source of income.
Perhaps not change immediately (especially if they are in the same area). But you can make the local thieves' guild extremely interested in them - read: annoyed and likely to find out why they do this. Possible scenario hooks: make them join the guild (involving them in inter-guilds wars) or fight them (some low-level thugs to start, finishing with the high-level assassin, likely to use crippling poison the cure of which they'd have to pay a pretty penny for).
If thieves guilds aren't your type, have the local militia investigate the rampant theft countrymen have been complaining about (might be amusing to recruit the PCs to help the investigation). Or have some high-level rogue (or paladin, I love pitting paladins against thieves) in the people they steal money from ("Hey, you found 100 platinum coins on him... but he turns around and stares at you before drawing a hidden dagger. Initiative roll everyone.")
When they finally leave the area, after exhausting everyone's purse or not, have some road thugs ambush them and steal all that hard-earned gold. Or have them meet some paladins escorting a high-level priestess of a deity related to Truth and Honesty. Have them under a Geas to be honest for a change.
Choices, choices...
It would nt be unlikely to find a wealthy mark or 2 who have magic items on them. Some minor potions/scrolls or random consumables wouldnt break the bank but would be fun to find. Also, small art objects like rings. Imagine what you (or they) could do if they steal the prince's signet ring or something like that. Documents are also fun. Give them knowledge about some merchant company's trade routes and maybe they will decide to raid a wealthy caravan. There are lots of things besides straight wealth that you can have fun with.
Peasents are just that... poor laborers who struggle to get by working hard. A grift on them for pocket change would net at best 1d20 cps and 1d4 sp on the best day. (Peasents eat at home... not enough funds to dine out)
Workers & guards - pull a small wage and on the best day I would place them at 1d20cp 1d20sp and 1d4gp for pocket funds
Merchants are a varied thing depending on the type of business. but never more then 1d4pp
Nobles you run into your money... they can carry largish purses and top in the hundreds of gold or plat or gems even (depending on the noble... some nobles are about as poor as their peasents, but just don't show it.)
Now of course there will be exceptions to this, famers leaving market week will have a small glut of cash on them dependant on the amount of cash, etc. But IMO they will NEVER give encounter gold even at 1st level.
Also, your group running this grift in a sizable town would be drawing the attention of the local underworld and that could start a whole adventure of having to fight thieves and assasins every step in the city.
But that's just the way I play.
:)
I don't think it's a good idea to have peasant treasure escalate with PC level. What might be a better solution is to have the players come to the conclusion that as their abilities rise, they should be choosing juicier targets to pilfer with sleight of hand if they want to get more gold this way. Another option would be working out a way that as they rise in level, they are able to pilfer from a larger number of peasants in a given amount of time and increase their funds that way, but even that should pale in comparison to juicier targets.
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I don't think it's a good idea to have peasant treasure escalate with PC level. What might be a better solution is to have the players come to the conclusion that as their abilities rise, they should be choosing juicier targets to pilfer with sleight of hand if they want to get more gold this way. Another option would be working out a way that as they rise in level, they are able to pilfer from a larger number of peasants in a given amount of time and increase their funds that way, but even that should pale in comparison to juicier targets.
While your players may enjoy plaing cutpurses, show them the consequences of their actions. Have them come across a poor crafstman being thrown out of his house/shop for being unable to pay the rent (becasue your PCs stole it as he was on his way to the landlord). Maybe they hear a street walker being severly beaten in an alley-way for not turning in her night's pay to her pimp. I'm sure you could also work in the funeral of a young child who dies becasue his parents couldn't pay for the medicine/potion they needed.
If they're going ot play SOB's, can they deal with the results of their actions?
I don't think it's a good idea to have peasant treasure escalate with PC level. What might be a better solution is to have the players come to the conclusion that as their abilities rise, they should be choosing juicier targets to pilfer with sleight of hand if they want to get more gold this way. Another option would be working out a way that as they rise in level, they are able to pilfer from a larger number of peasants in a given amount of time and increase their funds that way, but even that should pale in comparison to juicier targets.While your players may enjoy plaing cutpurses, show them the consequences of their actions. Have them come across a poor crafstman being thrown out of his house/shop for being unable to pay the rent (becasue your PCs stole it as he was on his way to the landlord). Maybe they hear a street walker being severly beaten in an alley-way for not turning in her night's pay to her pimp. I'm sure you could also work in the funeral of a young child who dies becasue his parents couldn't pay for the medicine/potion they needed.
If they're going ot play SOB's, can they deal with the results of their actions?
I know I have played in games where the wizard would raise dead the kid and add him to his minions. Other games we would spend the night trying to hit on the carpenter's daughter and maybe get him to sell her to us. Not everyone has moral quams about that kind of stuff.
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I know I have played in games where the wizard would raise dead the kid and add him to his minions. Other games we would spend the night trying to hit on the carpenter's daughter and maybe get him to sell her to us. Not everyone has moral quams about that kind of stuff.
If they're going ot play SOB's, can they deal with the results of their actions?
I'm not saying eveyone should have issues what that, just as long as their character sheets say "chaotic evil."
Then, what should the local law enforcement officials do about this gang of ne'er-do-wells?
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I know I have played in games where the wizard would raise dead the kid and add him to his minions. Other games we would spend the night trying to hit on the carpenter's daughter and maybe get him to sell her to us. Not everyone has moral quams about that kind of stuff.
Well, I don't know about raising the kid from the dead and trying to buy a person. But they follow a sort Objectivism, that is, that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest (yonked from wikipedia). They won't kill a random person on the street, but they won't have any problems robbing him blind. Besides, I'm not trying to burn them either.
I do like the bits about how the local economy doesn't work well when someone starts hording all the cash.
I might point out the party does not stay in one place long, so local guard has not jack about the players...yet. But when they come back, should they make trouble and get caught, then it's on.
If i had a group that liked to grift and gaffle, then I'd start now on tweaking the 'expected return'.
Let them start making perception checks or other skill checks to find good marks. Insight/Sense Motive to determine who can be conned.
Let them realize who the best targets are... then, you can start to throw a little bit of flavor into the mix.
Marks with bodyguards. marks with bodyguards that stay far enough away you don't know they're bodyguards. Marks that are other grifters that when you bump into them, they steal from you while you steal from them. Marks that are the head of the local Thieves Guild. Marks that are powerful mages and you just took something you shouldn't have... either he wants it back, or even worse, he meant for you to take it.
Now, I wouldn't use all of these, all the time. 90% of the time they should gaffle some coin and none be the wiser. 5% of the time, they get nothing, or get in a brief fight, or have to bluff or intimidate their way out.
Then, one day, you throw the huge adventure hook at them when they steal a cursed artifact that can only be gotten rid of when someone steals it from you.
I *would* make sure that for the 90% of the cases, the gold stolen is in line with the threat. If there's no threat, there should be little to no reward.
Interesting thread... Here's some ideas of how to keep them on their toes...
Have them try to pickpocket a vampire?
Could a dragon be visiting from the mountains in human form?
Is this a feudal society where there's a local lord who provides protection to his serfs and expects them to pay him taxes? Would the lord lead or hire a posse to chase down such ne'er-do-wells?
From the PFSRD:
Hireling, trained 3 sp per day
Hireling, untrained 1 sp per day
What proportion of your daily wages do you carry around?
Really, if your party doesn't have better things to do than take peasants' money, then they deserve what they get.
Imagine magazine had a nice article about pickpocketing as a career choice for (in those days) thieves.
If you want I can dig it out and post highlights if there is a need.
most people wont carry much on them a few coppers if robbing rich folks walking streets maybe a hand full of gold. Only people would have large amounts of cash would be merchants and blacksmiths but chances are keep all of that gold inside there shop in a safe or some sort of storage device and only carry around a small amount. Some of stand owners in market place MIGHT carry there earnings back during dusk hours heading home but, most of these still won't be much in way of cash. Just use common sense and don't forget that authorities can and will catch on to the PC's and likely if keep doing it that they are known and wanted bandits by this point, would be kind of funny to throw a high level bounty hunter or 10 at them hired by some rich folks who got robbed.
The premise for games like Pathfinder and D&D are that the PCs are heroes going on adventures for their own profit and the greater good.
Pilfering peasants pockets is certainly not an adventure 99% of all times. So it shouldn't net anywhere near the revenue.
Additionally, going up in level should not just mean a d6 more for my fireball, but also enhance the uniqueness of the PCs among the "lesser folk". In other words, the higher they are, the greater the impact of their deeds. A 10th Level Thief teaming up with a 10th Level Bard can probably rob the citizenry of a small town blind without any chance of failure. But if they do, someone is bound to notice and be on their tracks fast - probably hurting them a lot - for a net gain of roughly 100 GPs (5SP to 50GP for peasant to middle class merchant) this is not something that these two PC's will do often as it means all risk and no profit.
Finally the total disregard of the properties/feelings/wellfare of other people to satisfy your own needs is neutral evil.
I would send a party of Abadian Priests, Soldiers and a Paladin along to teach them it isn't nice to be on the wrong end of Magic Circle against Evil, Smite Evil with Holy Weapons and *yikes* Holy Word!
I would send a party of Abadian Priests, Soldiers and a Paladin along to teach them it isn't nice to be on the wrong end of Magic Circle against Evil, Smite Evil with Holy Weapons and *yikes* Holy Word!Indeed. When people are enjoying themselves, you should drop a hammer on them for not playing the right way. That's fun!
(* amused at the underlying sarcasm *)
No, that means enjoying the consequences of their actions. If the party is made of goody-two-shoes heroes, they will be stalked by the evil guys. Why wouldn't the evil-aligned party be tracked down by the good guys after months of pilfering? Not as a punishment for not playing the right way, but as part of the game (intrigue, fighting, social situation, etc).
After all, the worlds of D&D are seldom populated with only peasants wearing purses full of their life's income. There are kings, too, and monsters, and organizations belonging to all sides of the alignment. Letting the PCs interact with only a small part of this would be boring, in the long term.
If I were DMing that game, I'd let them have their fun, but I'd gradually increase (1) the likeliness that the NPCs have already been robbed blind or heard the grapevine and are suspicious, and (2) the number of hostile organizations (good-aligned seeking justice, or evil-aligned wanting domination) taking an interest in their activities.
Indeed. When people are enjoying themselves, you should drop a hammer on them for not playing the right way. That's fun!
Well duh, no one plays the game to enjoy it, it's about winning.
Now I don't think OP has a problem with his players enjoying their little game. He's just wanting to make sure he's portraying the "working mans" wealth a little better than CR equivalent gold gains.
Now the question becomes can we, as a group, figure out a good system for this DM to help him determine the wealth of the individuals the grift game is targeting?
I'll start with the peasent/poor laberor table:
D100
1-10% = 1d4cp
11-40 = 1d10cp
41-80 = 1d20cp
81-94 = 1d10cp + 1d4sp
95-99 = 1d20cp + 1d4sp
100 = Special Encounter
If you want you can make 1 roll/hour of in game time and x10 the results. Every hour spent grifting increases the special encounter chance by 1 (reducing the highest marks %chance as word gets around of the thefts)
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Hey thanks! That might work for me with some re-tooling.
And you are right. I actually LOVE my players having fun. There are never any consequences to their moral actions, just consequences for getting caught. If my players wanted to make a bunch of howling barbarians, who loot and pillage towns, that would be dandy, as long as they have fun. The only morality issues I have are if a player would have their character rape someone (this issue has never come up) or harm a non-monstrous child (another issue which has never appeared). There may be some other things, but I can't think of them off the top of my head. And if someone crossed that line, I would probably stop associating with them all together.
I don't think of Pathfinder, or any other system for that matter, as a game made for people to be heroes, I think of it as a system of game mechanics with which you can pretty much do anything you please. That's the great thing about imagination. You can do anything you want!
I was never looking to punish my players. Besides, they always look for a new, harder scam THEMSELVES, because it would get boring otherwise.
Thank you all for your thoughts. I have been giving them gold each time they do this as if they had overcome an encounter appropriate for their level, but maybe that will change now.
In regards to coinage, remember that most people can support themselves, assuming they have their own vegetable garden or other way to provide at least some of their own food at no cost, for 2 gold a week, including rent on their houses, taxes and furnishings. That's the commoner's basic alotment, and depending upon the nature of the region, that coin is probably translated into trade-goods at best, such as lumber, food supplies or some heavily dented, tarnished and almost illegible silver coins.
For Experts, they also have to run a shop, either attached to their house or somewhere else, supply tools, buy materials, pay Guild fees, possibly fay protection money, pay apprentices and journeymen to work for them and pay for hawkers to advertise their wares. You'd be looking at about 20-40 gold per week spending money with the majority of their actual earnings being funnelled back into the business. Of course, the Expert is more likely to have a stash of coins or other trade-good squirreled away in case of disaster than a Commoner, but still we're not talking Dragon Hoard here.
NPCs with PC Classes such as Fighter and Cleric are more easily figured out via the Core Rulebook, but always assume a non-adventuring NPC will have substantially less gold than an adventuring one.
Nobles will either have a lot, and it will be suitably guarded by either a no-nonsense guard(s) while the fop blunders around town, or by magical or otherwise expensive protection, such as magically shrunken and animated bear trap hidden in the purse that will activate and over the period of five rounds saw through the wrist of a pick-pocket unless they are also wearing the enchanted necklace the Noble possesses, or just a handful, with the Noble's 'House' or family sending servants out under guard to pay the Noble's bills the day afterwards to avoid the fop getting robbed by the first pickpocket with a warm smile and ample charms.
When you do some, drop some hints that people are hearing more and more about a 'band of thieving bastards' and there is a great rush to either bank your spare coins or leave them in a safe place.
Furthermore, if you wish to place a twist on the players, nothing is stopping the legal powers of the area, ie city watch or good-hearted nobility for that matter if the players are 'morally loose' as you've said, from paying a Wizard, Sorcerer or Cleric with sending a high-level rogue with a good bluff skill going down to whatever scam the players are running and letting them take the coin off him in whatever way they are doing, with a coin with both arcane mark and nyustul's aura (spelling?) placed upon it. When they're back at their little hideout, bang, the City Watch surrounds them with some magical backup, and given it's Golarion I don't doubt some faiths, and probably some heroes NPCs, would happily help the Watch, either for money, political favours or just to 'do the right thing'.
Of course, once the PC's are caught, tried and thrown in jail, nobody said anything about them staying in jail .....