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The more I reread Chapter 15, the more I am puzzled.
On dancing weapons, this is what the book states (boldface mine):
Dancing: As a standard action, a dancing weapon can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, the weapon shares the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved, the weapon can't dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.
Question 1: "when so retrieved, the weapon can't dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds". This means that if the weapon is not retrieved in that way (e.g. it simply drops) it can be reactivated later without waiting for 4 rounds. Right?
Question 2: the person who activated the dancing weapon can direct it, telling the weapon to change target or cease attacking? Is this a free action? Is this a verbal or a mental command?
Question 3: can the dancing weapon perform maneuvers (e.g. disarm, sunder on its own), if so directed?
Question 4: can the dancing weapon flank? This is relevant if the user and the weapon - while sharing the same square - are attacking different targets.
Question 5: "while dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity", and that's fine. But does the weapon provoke attacks of opportunity? If the activator moves around, the weapon will accompany him (it says so in the description), so in principle it can provoke AoO. And people would be happy to sunder a dancing sword as an AoO.
Official answers on this matter will be intensely appreciated.
Thank you.
These are my interpretations of the rules. Read as such.
1) No, to activate the dancing quality the weapon must be loosed (which implies it must be wielded first, as you cannot let go of something not in grasp) as a standard action.
2) I assume a free action. But you know what they say about assuming.
3) Yes, as it is specifically stated that the weapon is treated as being wielded by [player] to determine BAB, maneuvers, etc.
4) Flanking requires the target to be threatened (as in, able to be attacked or being attacked) from opposite sides. Even if the "wielder" were to be attacking a separate target than the weapon, both would be threatened and thus it stands that the weapon can indeed flank.
5) I assume that the weapon is treated as being wielded by the activator, and as such wouldn't provoke opportunity attacks on its own. However, if the "wielder" provoked an AoO, the attacker could choose instead to sunder the weapon.
I don't have my book in front of me, so I can't really cite sources, but that's what I think.
I'll try to get these in order as best as I can.
1)RAW is silent on this. It only indicates what happens when you retrieve it while it is still dancing. RAI, as I see it, would be that there is a 4 round cool down time on the dancing property regardless of how you deactivated it.
2)You can direct it, otherwise it would be pretty useless. The action necessary to direct it, however, is unclear. I would treat is very similar to Spiritual Weapon in this concern.
Each round after the first, you can use a move action to redirect the weapon to a new target. If you do not, the weapon continues to attack the previous round's target. On any round that the weapon switches targets, it gets one attack. Subsequent rounds of attacking that target allow the weapon to make multiple attacks if your base attack bonus would allow it to.
3)I would say that the weapon could perform weapon maneuvers due to this line in the dancing property:
The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.
A case could be made that "trip" does not work since it targets a creature and not an item, but sunder and disarm are clearly acceptable. The maneuvers would be at the "wielder's" CMB.
4)I would rule no, by strict RAW reading of flanking. Every mention of flanking situations refer to creatures or characters. No mention of objects or items. Therefore, by RAW, only creatures can flank and items cannot.*
5)Again, looking through the Combat rules on Threatening only creatures are mentioned. Objects and items cannot be threatened and therefore do not provoke AoOs.
*If I am understanding the situation correctly, however, you would still provide flanking bonuses. The situation I am seeing is a line of creatures (T E Y E T) with T being a teammate, E being an enemy and Y being you. In your square is your dancing weapon and you are either wielding another weapon or have the Improve Unarmed Strike feat. Since you threaten both enemies along with your teammates, both enemies are considered flanked, even though you are only attacking one of them. This is largely due to the lack of facing rules for combat and the fact that merely threatening an enemy is all that is required for flanking, not actually attacking.
Caveat: All the above are my interpretations of the rules and not anything official...obviously.
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Thank you for your answers.
1) No, to activate the dancing quality the weapon must be loosed (which implies it must be wielded first, as you cannot let go of something not in grasp) as a standard action.
Well, that's not to the point, I think. The text says:
If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved, the weapon can't dance (attack on its own) again for 4 roundsSo this looks like the 4 round waiting time ONLY applies to that mode of retrieving (grasping the weapon while dancing as a free action).
BUT, if I collect it from the ground just after the weapon dropped, it is not a free action and it provokes AoO. And it looks like I should be able to reactivate it immediately without waiting for those 4 rounds.
3) Yes, as it is specifically stated that the weapon is treated as being wielded by [player] to determine BAB, maneuvers, etc.
Book says: The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.
So it looks like it is only referring to the weapon being the target of, e.g., a sunder.
5) I assume that the weapon is treated as being wielded by the activator, and as such wouldn't provoke opportunity attacks on its own. However, if the "wielder" provoked an AoO, the attacker could choose instead to sunder the weapon.
Maybe the attacker can avoid AoO via acrobatics. But the weapon will still provoke AoO for leaving a threatened square. Or not? Or maybe the weapon tumbles along with the activator?
I don't have my book in front of me, so I can't really cite sources, but that's what I think.
I do have the book in front of me, and I would have been mightily grateful if more elucidating words had been spent on this magic weapon property. The paragraph looks quite hastily written.
During last session we had all of those doubts arising due to an NPC using a dancing sword, and I had to improvise. Fine. But now the PCs got the weapon and - you bet - it is going to be used a lot. So I need some more definitive answers here.
Having to houserule 5 times on a single property of a magic weapon had us feel like we were back to the distressing sorrows of D&D 3.5. And that wasn't pretty.
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I'll try to get these in order as best as I can.
4)I would rule no, by strict RAW reading of flanking. Every mention of flanking situations refer to creatures or characters. No mention of objects or items. Therefore, by RAW, only creatures can flank and items cannot.*
5)Again, looking through the Combat rules on Threatening only creatures are mentioned. Objects and items cannot be threatened and therefore do not provoke AoOs.
Well, but a dancing sword is moving and attacking, so it is basically behaving as an Animated Object (Bestiary, page 14) to all effects.
And Animated Objects do provoke AdO when move around, don't they?And they get flanking bonuses when flanking an enemy, don't they?
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I think it's clear it's meant to attack 4 rounds then be unable to attack on it's own for 4 rounds. Anything else is just twisting the rules and loophole hunting pure and simple.
By RAW, no, weirdly enough. Even if the Dancing weapon is in all other respects an Animated Object, unless the text of Dancing states that the weapon is a creature, then it's not. Therefore, again by RAW, it does not provoke nor threaten in regards to AoOs. If you want to rule differently, this is why Rule 0 exists and why the GM isn't an automaton.
I referenced Spiritual Weapon earlier specifically because the Dancing weapon is so similar. In all respects, as a GM, I treat a Dancing weapon to be a non-spiritual Spiritual Weapon. This is the reason for several of my rulings. For the record, Spiritual Weapon does not provoke or threaten.
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I think it's clear it's meant to attack 4 rounds then be unable to attack on it's own for 4 rounds. Anything else is just twisting the rules and loophole hunting pure and simple.
I think you're being needlessly antagonistic.
I am not trying to twist the rules, and I am not "loophole hunting". I am the GM, as I wrote, and the listed problems all arose during the same game session. So I am here asking for clarification.
Anything wrong with that?
This section of the forum is called "Rules Question" and I am asking a (I think) well defined question about a specific part of the rules.
Your first post says nothing about you being a GM or anything coming up during play. And yes the first one came off as loophole hunting as you looking to find away around the 4/4 round rule due to wording, even point out the possible wording loophole in a 2nd poet once someone said something that did not affirm the loophole
Anyhow if that was not what you were doing I jumped the gun,sorry bout that.
1: It's pretty much clear its 4 rounds up then 4 rounds down
2: I am guess a move action, but here you are right it is unclear so you could say it's a free action
3: As long as it could if used by you then yes.
4: I would say no myself
5: I would also say no, the rules seem to disallow an item to do such
#1 poorly written, but it seems obvious that can not be the purpose, once it stops dancing it can not dance for 4 rounds.
#2 I think using a move action to use the weapon might be a bit harsh, I'd allow it to attack freely under the bearer's control.
#3 I'd allow it, though I'd not treat it as having any feats and any provoked AoO will be targeted on the wielder.
#4 I would not allow it flanking, since it doesn't seem to be able to make AoO either, which leads me to believe it doesn't threaten squares.
#5 "The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items." I'll extrapolate on this and consider the weapon part of you, not an individual creature.
Hi all,
sorry to hijack the topic a little, but my questions still fit.
6) When non-monk weapon is enchanted with dancing and loosed, can the monk continue with unarmed flurry next round?
7) Can you enchant double weapons with dancing on one side only? And what happens if you enchant it both sides?
Greeting
Ploppy
The answer to 6 is pretty simply a yes. Your monk could hold a longsword and flurry away with unarmed strikes if it wanted too. You just couldn't include the longsword (dancing or not) in the flurry.
7 is a much trickier question. You can obviously only enhance one end of a double weapon as Dancing if you want to. It's an enhancement for weapons. Double weapons are weapons. No problem. The real issue comes with the second part of your question. RAW is silent on this as far as I can tell. As a GM I would rule that the double weapon can "dance" but only the end with the Dancing enhancement could attack while "dancing".
The answer to 6 is pretty simply a yes. Your monk could hold a longsword and flurry away with unarmed strikes if it wanted too. You just couldn't include the longsword (dancing or not) in the flurry.
7 is a much trickier question. You can obviously only enhance one end of a double weapon as Dancing if you want to. It's an enhancement for weapons. Double weapons are weapons. No problem. The real issue comes with the second part of your question. RAW is silent on this as far as I can tell. As a GM I would rule that the double weapon can "dance" but only the end with the Dancing enhancement could attack while "dancing".
If you wanted to Dance on two ends of a weapon you could allow it to fight with the wielder's two weapon feats as that is supported in the text quoted in the item above. If only one end of a double weapon was enchanted to dance, i would treat it as the weapon being used "two handed" for damage purposes and attack rate.
The answer to 6 is pretty simply a yes. Your monk could hold a longsword and flurry away with unarmed strikes if it wanted too. You just couldn't include the longsword (dancing or not) in the flurry.
But this is the key part of the question. If the longsword is dancing (=not directly part of the monks unarmed flurry attacks), why can it not additionally attack on its own???
The answer is included in the text of the Dancing ability.
The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.
Flurrying is special a maneuver available to monks (note: it does not specify "combat maneuver", a defined game term). A monk cannot flurry with a non-monk weapon. Ergo, your monk can loose his dancing longsword and have it attack via the dancing ability but, since your monk cannot flurry with a non-monk weapon, your monk cannot flurry with the longsword. Dancing offers him additional attacks (at the regular 3/4 monk BAB) and the monk may flurry with his unarmed strikes.
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Your first post says nothing about you being a GM or anything coming up during play. And yes the first one came off as loophole hunting as you looking to find away around the 4/4 round rule due to wording, even point out the possible wording loophole in a 2nd poet once someone said something that did not affirm the loopholeAnyhow if that was not what you were doing I jumped the gun,sorry bout that.
No offence taken. By the way, just to be clear, I fully agree with your (and other people's) interpretation that the dancing weapon should work 4 rounds up followed by 4 rounds down.
However, I hope you'll agree with me that the wording is potentially ambiguous and prone to misunderstanding, so I was kind of playing the devil's advocate there in order to stress the problem.In other words, I am doing an exercise in defensive GMing here, since I have a couple players who sometimes start lengthy discussions on these aspects and this can swamp down our game sessions occasionally.
That's also why an official reply would really be the deus ex machina to settle the issue forever.
(PS: I know, I know what you're thinking, rule lawyers can make troublesome players, but, well, what should I do, expel them from the group?! That sounds exceedingly harsh, and very unpractical, and they are good players and nice people, as long as they don't get too
involved in discussing ambiguities in the rules...)
Just don't allow you to be pressed into defense too far, maybe make some time after a session to discuss things instead. You really want to keep things flowing during an encounter, it might be good to rule in a character's favour in doubt, but be clear you will get back on the subject later.
(PS: I know, I know what you're thinking, rule lawyers can make troublesome players, but, well, what should I do, expel them from the group?! That sounds exceedingly harsh, and very unpractical, and they are good players and nice people, as long as they don't get too
involved in discussing ambiguities in the rules...)
No not expel em, but when a GM makes a call rules be damned that is the call. Sit them down and go "Look guys the wording is off maybe but it was never meant to work like that and I am not gonna allow it. If you disagree fine but thats my ruling on it "
As a GM you often have to make calls and decide how something should work in your games. Rules lawyers are only an issue if you let them be.
My interpretations:
1. Agree with everyone else, 4 rounds on, 4 off. I may even say if you let it drop it needs 4 rounds form when you pick it up, but probably wouldn't.
2. It doesn't say, so I would assume its mental and a free action.
3. I see no reason why it can't perform manuevers. I would even let them use feats if they have them.
4. The dancing weapon cannot leave your square, so you are flanking, not it. I would give it the flanking bonus, since it is considered wielded by you.
5. It would not provoke on its own, it moves with the wielder and is considered wielded by him.
I do not consider this line to only be refering to defensive things, so I would give weapon focus/spec and other feats the wielder has to the item.
The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items.
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No not expel em, but when a GM makes a call rules be damned that is the call. Sit them down and go "Look guys the wording is off maybe but it was never meant to work like that and I am not gonna allow it. If you disagree fine but thats my ruling on it "As a GM you often have to make calls and decide how something should work in your games. Rules lawyers are only an issue if you let them be.
Well, they can be an issue even if you don't let them be, because hard-core rule-lawyers (I had one of those in the past -- for a few sessions!) start arguing again at every opportunity and insisting that "ok, that's your ruling, but that's totally arbitrary, since nowhere in here it does clearly say this and that..."
Of course these kind of people are simply motivated by a perverse desire to disrupt your game, but you don't know you're dealing with one of them until it is too late!Anyway, as far dancing weapons are concerned, I am now interested myself in the "official" interpretation. Just out of curiosity. And because dancing weapon are common in my games (I happen to like them).
(Question 1 I am pretty much sure that it works as we all agree it does, i.e. 4 rounds on, 4 rounds off but the others are clearly more open to interpretation).
Btw, I am relatively new to the boards, so please enlighten me: am I to expect an answer from Buhlmann here on the boards on a reasonable time-scale, or should I call the customer service, or send an old-fashioned snail mail directly to some obscure PO Box, or drive all the way up to Seattle and kindly knock at Paizo's office?
I mean, suppose I really really want to get an answer to my question... what should I do?
How does the weapon combined with things like spirited charge, power attack and arcane strike?
Creative Director
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Question 1: "when so retrieved, the weapon can't dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds". This means that if the weapon is not retrieved in that way (e.g. it simply drops) it can be reactivated later without waiting for 4 rounds. Right?
If the weapon is not retrieved when its four rounds are up, it drops to the ground. Four rounds after that, it can be commanded to dance again; the weapon can't dodge the 4 rounds of "recharge" time after it dances.
Question 2: the person who activated the dancing weapon can direct it, telling the weapon to change target or cease attacking? Is this a free action? Is this a verbal or a mental command?
The dancing weapon remains in the attacker's square, like an animated shield. It can't leave the attacker's square, but it doesn't require the attacker to hold it. It can be directed to attack any foe within reach, as if it were being wielded by the owner. Directing the dancing weapon's attacks while it is dancing is a free action (that's the whole point of the quality, to give you extra attacks). It's a mental command.
Question 3: can the dancing weapon perform maneuvers (e.g. disarm, sunder on its own), if so directed?
Yes.
Question 4: can the dancing weapon flank? This is relevant if the user and the weapon - while sharing the same square - are attacking different targets.
No. Note that to flank a foe, you don't need to be attacking that foe. A hero surrounded by a ring of bad guys will allow the ring of good guys around THAT ring to be flanked, even though the hero in the center is unlikely to be able to attack all of the foes surrounding him. But a dancing weapon itself cannot flank. Think of it as being wielded by a third arm possessed by the user, basically—it's not the weapon that threatens but the owner who uses the weapon... even if the weapon is dancing.
Question 5: "while dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity", and that's fine. But does the weapon provoke attacks of opportunity? If the activator moves around, the weapon will accompany him (it says so in the description), so in principle it can provoke AoO. And people would be happy to sunder a dancing sword as an AoO.
The weapon does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Its owner does. The weapon follows the owner (again, as if it were being wielded by an invisible, immaterial third arm). Each piece of gear carried does not provoke seperate attacks of opportunity, and the dancing weapon is no exception. Of course, if the owner provokes an AoO, someone could use the AoO to try to sunder the dancing weapon if he wanted... just as how he could do so against any of the owner's other pieces of gear. It's no easier or tougher to sunder a dancing weapon than it is one wielded in a for-real hand, in any case.
If a 15th level rogue has four dancing daggers could they loose all 4 of them to perform sneak attacks on a foe that rogue is flanking? The weapons count as if being wielded by the rogue after all and the rogue would normally get sneak attacks.
Rounds
1. Standard - Loose Dagger 1, Move - Draw Dagger 2
D1 makes 3 sneak attacks
2. Standard - Loose Dagger 2, Move - Draw Dagger 3
D1 makes 3 sneak attacks
D2 makes 3 sneak attacks
3. Standard - Loose Dagger 3, Move - Draw Dagger 4
D1 makes 3 sneak attacks
D2 makes 3 sneak attacks
D3 makes 3 sneak attacks
4. Standard - Loose Dagger 4
D1 makes 3 sneak attacks
Pick up D1 as a Free action before it falls
D2 makes 3 sneak attacks
D3 makes 3 sneak attacks
D4 makes 3 sneak attacks
Silly question, but it has plagued me for a while (we hardly ever run into dancing weapons, and haven't since 2.0). How many attacks does the dancing weapon get? Is it the same BAB progression as the wielder? I know the weapon gets to attack with the wielder's BAB, but I am curious as to whether it gets full attacks or just a standard attack. Thanks!
How does the weapon combined with things like spirited charge, power attack and arcane strike?Just as if it were wielded by the owner normally.
Excellent so a eldritch knight could if he had the appropriate feats:
Spirited Charge ride by attack with a dancing weapon while power attacking and arcane striking.
Then cast a spell at the end of the charge (provided he made the concentration check for the mounts movement).
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Think of it as being wielded by a third arm possessed by the user, basically—it's not the weapon that threatens but the owner who uses the weapon... even if the weapon is dancing.
Dear James,
thanks a lot for answering all my questions and for providing valuable insight in the way the dancing weapon works.Tancred
Question 1: "when so retrieved, the weapon can't dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds". This means that if the weapon is not retrieved in that way (e.g. it simply drops) it can be reactivated later without waiting for 4 rounds. Right?If the weapon is not retrieved when its four rounds are up, it drops to the ground. Four rounds after that, it can be commanded to dance again; the weapon can't dodge the 4 rounds of "recharge" time after it dances.
Question 2: the person who activated the dancing weapon can direct it, telling the weapon to change target or cease attacking? Is this a free action? Is this a verbal or a mental command?The dancing weapon remains in the attacker's square, like an animated shield. It can't leave the attacker's square, but it doesn't require the attacker to hold it. It can be directed to attack any foe within reach, as if it were being wielded by the owner. Directing the dancing weapon's attacks while it is dancing is a free action (that's the whole point of the quality, to give you extra attacks). It's a mental command.
Question 3: can the dancing weapon perform maneuvers (e.g. disarm, sunder on its own), if so directed?Yes.
Question 4: can the dancing weapon flank? This is relevant if the user and the weapon - while sharing the same square - are attacking different targets.No. Note that to flank a foe, you don't need to be attacking that foe. A hero surrounded by a ring of bad guys will allow the ring of good guys around THAT ring to be flanked, even though the hero in the center is unlikely to be able to attack all of the foes surrounding him. But a dancing weapon itself cannot flank. Think of it as being wielded by a third arm possessed by the user, basically—it's not the weapon that threatens but the owner who uses the weapon... even if the weapon is dancing.
Question 5:...
Does a dancing weapon ONLY use the Base Attack Bonus of the wielder? Or does it use other qualities as well (such as strength modifier, weapon focus, enhancement bonuses, etc.)?
This is all good information for when my monk gets the Dancing enchantment on his Amulet of Mighty Fists.