Standard action attacks (cleave, vital strike) stacking?

[Luei]

So yeah, like in the title, do effects that require you take a single attack as a standard action, like cleave and vital strike, stack? Maybe just for the first attack with those two combined? Also, while we're here, just to clarify, you can't make a full attack action and have one of these effects on one of your attacks, right?

[Mynameisjake]

No, they don't stack. Each requires a standard action and therefore can not normally be used together, nor can they be used as part of a full attack.

[Krome]

I have not seen anything that says they do not stack...

[Luei]

Well wait, it seems I read a bit wrong in the rules. Cleave says "As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe in reach." Vital strike says "When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage." This would mean that, of course vital strike is used on the first cleave attack, but none of the subsequent, and even the first attack in a full attack action gets vital strike, which means this feat just got a lot more awesome.

However, it kind of makes this question thread moot, since I don't think there is an attack that works like cleave, meaning that cleave and great cleave are now utterly useless, especially at higher levels, since you get no other attacks than the cleave ones, even at your higher bab.

Edit: well, I guess you get all the cleave attacks as only a standard action, so I guess it would actually be useful in a lot of situations.

[Dabbler]

They are both standard actions - it takes one standard action to make a vital strike, and one standard action to make a Great Cleave. You do not get two standard actions in a round, therefore you cannot do both. You wouldn't argue that you should be able to use a Vital Strike in a full attack, because a full attack takes up a full action and there is no standard action left to use for Vital Strike.

However, I think a feat that allowed a standard action to stack with a charge action, or with another standard action, wouldn't be a bad idea.

As for the usefulness of Cleave and Great Cleave, the latter is virtually a poor-man's Whirlwind Attack and you can move with it - move in, cleave 3-4 foes stood close to one another and you have made 3-4 attacks at full attack bonus and moved into the bargain. Works for me!

[Luei]

Here's why I think vital strike would count on almost any attack at you full bab (if there is an official ruling on this, like from Jason, please let me know):
the feat description reads: "When you use the attack action," (that means any attack, including a full attack, not just a standard) "you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. (I take that to mean that once per round, you can make an attack at your full bab that does this extra damage.)

[Dilvish the Danged]

@ Luei

If you are looking for varification on what others have posted in this thread, look here Pathfinder faq link

It contains many of the clarifications that come either from the Paizo staff directly, or from hashing out the text of various feats in forum threads.

[Dabbler]

Luei wrote:

Here's why I think vital strike would count on almost any attack at you full bab (if there is an official ruling on this, like from Jason, please let me know):

the feat description reads: "When you use the attack action," (that means any attack, including a full attack, not just a standard) "you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. (I take that to mean that once per round, you can make an attack at your full bab that does this extra damage.)

There is a ruling, and it goes like this:

Reference link:

Quote:

Q: What type of action (standard, full, move, swift, free) does Vital Strike use?

A: (Jason Bulmahn) Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action. Note: Attack Action means it is one of the types of action listed under Standard Actions defined on page 182 or Standard Actions List on the PRD. You see that Attack is is one of the types of Standard Actions available others including: Activate Magic Item, Cast a Spell, Total Defense, and Use Special Ability.

(Emphasis above mine)

Hence it goes like this: Vital Strike takes a standard action to perform. Full attack takes a full action. You cannot combine any action with a full action except a five-foot step. This is why you cannot Cleave, Great Cleave, move or do anything else with a full attack either.

The idea behind Vital Strike seems to me to be that you take care to deliver a single, precise blow where you want it to increase the damage. This takes time to do, and leaves you with none to perform any further attacks.

In terms of game mechanics, it enables you to move and strike and not completely forego the damage you could dish by standing in one place and pounding away.

[Luei]

Well, hey! I'm never gonna use vital strike now! Pretty much ever! I mean, you can't use it in a charge, or even with Spring Attack (perhaps)! What is the point!? I can see only a 1-hit kill obsessed assassin taking this, but a better option would be more attacks, since you can add sneak attack damage multiple times.

And since Vital Strike works the same way as Cleave (ambiguity now cleared up, thanks for the link, Dilvish), that means that most situations with cleave would also be pretty much ruled out. I mean, the only time you would use the feat is to run up and attack a couple of guys, and you can't even charge to do it. Overall, I think there are much better feats than these as they stand now.

And now I know why Vital Strike is almost universally disliked.

[Dabbler]

Myself, I have every intention of using it. A lot.

• It's great for monks who use dice more than bonuses to inflict damage and want to make the most of their mobility and still do reasonable damage without their flurry-of-blows.
  
• It's great for using with feint and sneak attack to add some damage to an Improved Feint & Sneak attack combo.
  
• These feats get useful anywhere where you don't have a full action to attack in, in short.
  

And as I said above, a feat that enables you to charge and use a standard-action feat combined would be welcomed, but otherwise you can still move and deliver a respectable hit. With Cleave and great Cleave you can likewise move and make multiple attacks. It makes combat more mobile, which is a good thing in my book.

[Luei]

Dabbler wrote:

Myself, I have every intention of using it. A lot.

• It's great for monks who use dice more than bonuses to inflict damage and want to make the most of their mobility and still do reasonable damage without their flurry-of-blows.
  
• It's great for using with feint and sneak attack to add some damage to an Improved Feint & Sneak attack combo.
  
• These feats get useful anywhere where you don't have a full action to attack in, in short.
  

And as I said above, a feat that enables you to charge and use a standard-action feat combined would be welcomed, but otherwise you can still move and deliver a respectable hit. With Cleave and great Cleave you can likewise move and make multiple attacks. It makes combat more mobile, which is a good thing in my book.

Well, I can see your arguments, but I don't like putting all my eggs in one basket (more damage, one attack). While potentially powerful, I think there are more potent feats than vital strike and cleave, especially for the characters I play. And maybe because I never play monks, or anyone that would greatly benefit from having it. So maybe I am a little prejudiced, but I don't like paying the types of characters that would get a real kick out of it. My... more challenged friends usually fill those roles.

EDIT: Not saying that you are like them! Please take no offense at that last line!

[Dabbler]

None taken! I'm currently doing a 'fencer build' of fighter/rogue that is going to make use of it a lot - mainly because I intend to be using mobility a lot, or else using Improved Feint to get a sneak attack in, to which Vital Strike adds an extra dice (or more). Another reason for using it is if you are up against an enemy with damage resistance - when all else fails, doing extra damage can be the only way to get past that.

[Scipion del Ferro]

It helps attacks like an Alchemists bombs!

[Dabbler]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

It helps attacks like an Alchemists bombs!

In the FAQ it made clear it didn't enhance ray attacks and the like, so I think Alchemist's bombs are also excluded, sorry!

[Scipion del Ferro]

Dabbler wrote:

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

It helps attacks like an Alchemists bombs!

In the FAQ it made clear it didn't enhance ray attacks and the like, so I think Alchemist's bombs are also excluded, sorry!

Jason Jacobs wrote:

Vital Strike does not allow you to sneak out extra damage with spells unless that spell works like a weapon.

Bombs aren't spells, they are Supernatural Abilities. Even if they are spells, they work like weapons which is why they use the exact same rules for splash weapons. It applies.

[Dabbler]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Dabbler wrote:

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

It helps attacks like an Alchemists bombs!

In the FAQ it made clear it didn't enhance ray attacks and the like, so I think Alchemist's bombs are also excluded, sorry!

Jason Jacobs wrote:

Vital Strike does not allow you to sneak out extra damage with spells unless that spell works like a weapon.

Bombs aren't spells, they are Supernatural Abilities. Even if they are spells, they work like weapons which is why they use the exact same rules for splash weapons. It applies.

They are not conventional weapons you can aim more precisely, therefore you're not getting away with it. The intent is quite clear from the clarification on spells and sneak attack dice, that it applies to missile and melee weapons and not to rays, explosions, spells, supernatural powers or any other such. If you can find an example where they apply it in such circumstances, feel free. Try and pull this in any game with a half-way sane DM and feel the smackdown.

Edit:
I think this statement from the FAQ makes the intent quite clear:

Quote:

A: (James Jacobs 11/6/09) Vital Strike wasn't ever intended to give spellcasters a way to double their damage dice, and you can expect it to be reworded in an upcoming FAQ sooner or later to enforce this role.

Which you can check here. While alchemists are not technically spellcasters, they are functionally so. I am fairly certain that splash weapons are also clearly not covered by Vital Strike.