Alter Self cast by a large wizard, including his familiar...


Rules Questions


"Range: personal

Target: you

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength."

OK, sure, this spell is fine, until it is cast by a large or huge creature, or on a familiar...

What does everyone think?

Sorry if this has been discussed already.

Scarab Sages

I don't understand. Why is it a problem?

You can assume the form of a Small or Medium creature and the ramifications are clearly spelled out in the description. Why does it matter if the creature was originally Large or Huge? Are you thinking it's because of the Str bonus? So what? Removing the 10 ft reach and granting a +2 Str bonus seems pretty reasonable to me.

And why would it be a problem for a familiar either? The spell certainly doesn't last long enough to be all that harmful. It might last for a single encounter, but it won't last all day for example.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Fergie wrote:
OK, sure, this spell is fine, until it is cast by a large or huge creature, or on a familiar...

Can you describe the big problems you see?


Fergie wrote:

"Range: personal

Target: you

When you cast this spell, you can assume the form of any Small or Medium creature of the humanoid type. If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, and swim 30 feet.

Small creature: If the form you take is that of a Small humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Dexterity.

Medium creature: If the form you take is that of a Medium humanoid, you gain a +2 size bonus to your Strength."

OK, sure, this spell is fine, until it is cast by a large or huge creature, or on a familiar...

What does everyone think?

Sorry if this has been discussed already.

You have to remember that any creature whose size is different from Small or Medium (like a Large caster, or a Tiny familiar) should first and foremost 'convert' his physical scores according to the table on page 212 of the Core Book (or on the PRD -> Magic -> Spell Descriptions -> School (Subschool) -> Transmutation -> Polymorph).

So, basically, a Large caster with Str 20, Dex 10, and Con 18, that casts Alter Self to become a Medium-sized humanoid, should:
1) apply the special 'Conversion Table' (-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con) and become a 'virtual' Medium-sized creature with Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16;
2) apply the spell properties, and so add a +2 to Str
...and he becomes a Medium-sized humanoid with Str 18, Dex 12, Con 16

A Tiny creature that benefits from the same Alter Self spell (let's say a Cat Familiar, with Str 3, Dex 15, and Con 8) to become a Medium-sized humanoid:
1) applies the special 'Conversion Table' (+4 Str, -2 Dex) and become a 'virtual' Small-sized creature with Str 7, Dex 13, Con 8;
2) applies the spell properties, adding +2 to Str
...and he finally becomes a Medium-sized humanoid with Str 9, Dex 13, Con 8.

So, as you can see, if the scores are good, they continue to stay fairly good, but not over the top (the Large caster actually gains +2 Dex but loses +2 Str and +2 Con); on the other hand, if the scores are low, they continue to stay low, but at least they become less abysmal (the Tiny familiar gains +6 Str and loses +2 Dex).

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Alter Self cast by a large wizard, including his familiar... All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.