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The requirements for using a scroll do not include having a caster level.
However, if your caster level is not equal to or greater than that of the scroll, you must make a caster level check.
Is a caster level of "none" equivalent to 0, or does the lack of a caster level preclude making the check at all?
The requirements for using a scroll do not include having a caster level.
However, if your caster level is not equal to or greater than that of the scroll, you must make a caster level check.
Is a caster level of "none" equivalent to 0, or does the lack of a caster level preclude making the check at all?
Tough call I would let him but his caster level would be 0. He's behind the fighter in feats, that would give the class a minor boost that wouldn't be overpowered at all.
Can't use scroll until you have a caster level... however wands are fair game from the get go, since they only have to appear on a spell list you get.
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To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
I would say the paladin could activate the scroll, but would have to make a caster level check to avoid a mishap. As he has no caster level, his bonus would be 0. Therefore it would be a straight d20 roll.
you don't have a spell list till you have a caster lvl.
A paladin can cast from a wand before he has a caster level, therefore he has a spell list before he has a caster level.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
He can attempt it, at the risk of making a mistake.
There's a big difference between having no caster level and having a 0 caster level (which is possible in some situations - like a 1/1 ftr/wiz having a negative level).
Without a caster level, you have to use UMD to use scrolls to emulate one - even for spells on your class spell list.
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I'm looking into that right now. Where do you find the statement you must have a caster level to cast a spell? It makes logical sense, but then if wands make an exception, why not scrolls? Scrolls have a caster level of their own, IIRC.
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.
No mention of caster level.
Reference PRD "Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3."
As per the text Paladins 3rd level or less have no caster level. Not none for caster level but no caster level. A fighter has no caster level, a rogue has no caster level, a monk has no caster level. So to assume a Paladin with no caster level can cast from a scroll would mean so could fighters, monks and rogues. So I no it can't be done.
But I'd house rule it in my games that Paladins and Rangers could use scrolls by applying level -3 as there caster level so 1st level Paladin could make caster level check at a -2 to cast from a scroll.
As for Wands, the paladin doesn't have spell list till 4th level so those won't work
Reference PRD "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists."
So only beginning at 4th level do they have spell list which they can draw spell from.
Here I'd house rule that they could use wands though.
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It looks like an inexperienced Ranger or Paladin cannot use Spell Completion items. They can however specifically use Spell Trigger Items like wands.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
I think the lines "Through 3rd level, x has no caster level" and the bolded statement above pretty much rules out the Spell Completion items.
--Vrock to Mud!
I'm looking into that right now. Where do you find the statement you must have a caster level to cast a spell? It makes logical sense, but then if wands make an exception, why not scrolls? Scrolls have a caster level of their own, IIRC.
Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.No mention of caster level.
It's under the Magic Items section on Activating a Scroll
Reference PRD "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully."
It looks like an inexperienced Ranger or Paladin cannot use Spell Completion items. They can however specifically use Spell Trigger Items like wands.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.I think the lines "Through 3rd level, x has no caster level" and the bolded statement above pretty much rules out the Spell Completion items.
--Vrock to Mud!
Good find, I wouldn't have thought to look under magic item creation. Make me happy as house rule I've been using is actually legit. Woohoo!
What about scrolls though?
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It's under the Magic Items section on Activating a Scroll
Reference PRD "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully."
But that just says they have to make a caster level check to activate it. Not 'you must have a caster level to use this'.
As per the text Paladins 3rd level or less have no caster level. Not none for caster level but no caster level. A fighter has no caster level, a rogue has no caster level, a monk has no caster level. So to assume a Paladin with no caster level can cast from a scroll would mean so could fighters, monks and rogues. So I no it can't be done.
To go back to this, the difference between fighters/rogue/monks and paladins/rangers is that f/r/m have no spell list and p/r do have a spell list. The requirements for casting from a scroll say nothing of having a caster level, only that if your caster level is lower than the scrolls you have to roll to avoid a mishap.
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But that just says they have to make a caster level check to activate it. Not 'you must have a caster level to use this'.It's under the Magic Items section on Activating a Scroll
Reference PRD "If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully."
They have NO caster level.
A Fighter has no caster level either. Can a Fighter make that check? If a Fighter can do it the Paladin or Ranger of less than 4th level can do it.
Having a spell list only applies to Spell Trigger Items, not Spell Completion Items. Lower caster level /= No caster level. You must HAVE a caster level to use scrolls without UMD. Rangers and Paladins do not gain the ability to Cast until 4th. They may have a list, but it is otherwise unavailable to them until they become spellcasters. Spellcasters used to be a defined term in the 3.5 glossary.
--locked up tighter than Fort Vrox!
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They have NO caster level.A Fighter has no caster level either. Can a Fighter make that check? If a Fighter can do it the Paladin or Ranger of less than 4th level can do it.
Having a spell list only applies to Spell Trigger Items, not Spell Completion Items. Lower caster level /= No caster level. You must HAVE a caster level to use scrolls without UMD. Rangers and Paladins do not gain the ability to Cast until 4th. They may have a list, but it is otherwise unavailable to them until they become spellcasters. Spellcasters used to be a defined term in the 3.5 glossary.
--locked up tighter than Fort Vrox!
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
The fighter cannot make the check because he does not have the spell on his class list. Nowhere in that list does it say you HAVE to have a caster level.
If you do not have a high enough caster level, you have to make a caster level check. To my knowledge, having no caster level is not an impediment, it just means you add nothing to the roll.
I do not see a reason for wands to be okay before you have a caster level but scrolls are out.
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Wands are OK because they specifically state they are. I quoted it above. Wands are also Spell Trigger items, meaning they need far less skill to use. Scrolls are Spell Completion, a totally different animal.
It's all right here in the Magic Item section.
Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
As bolded a 3rd level Paladin can't cast spells.
In the Paladin Class section on Spells it states...
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is equal to her paladin level – 3.
They can't cast spells and have no caster level. The only exception specifically open to them are Wands.
--Vrock, stock, and barrel
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No, obviously the rules are not clear. You can make a logical inference either way, that 'of course you need a caster level to cast a spell' or that 'hey, you just run the risk of a mishap if you're not high enough level'. Thanks for proving that there is nothing in the rules forbidding it other than personal interpretation.
Again, I see no statements that say you must have a caster level to cast from a scroll.
To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can't already cast the spell, there's a chance he'll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
A 1st level paladin is not high enough in levels until he gets to level 4, so from that point I think it is logical to say we go to the scroll mishap rules.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.
I think its safe to say a paladin does not even get a caster level until level 4, but if one were to say they just have a negative caster level they would at the minimum suffer a possibility of a spell mishap. I dont think they even have a caster level until 4th level though.
Caster level or no caster level really makes no difference. Paladins don't have spells till 4th level. They have no list till 4th level so from 1st to 3rd they are just like a fighter when it comes to using scrolls. It doesn't get more clear than that in the text of the Paladin class as I will post again.
"Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists."
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I think its safe to say a paladin does not even get a caster level until level 4, but if one were to say they just have a negative caster level they would at the minimum suffer a possibility of a spell mishap. I dont think they even have a caster level until 4th level though.
Precisely my point. It says that if they do not have a high enough caster level, they have to roll a caster level check to avoid a mishap. It does not say 'they cannot cast the spell.'
Caster level or no caster level really makes no difference. Paladins don't have spells till 4th level. They have no list till 4th level so from 1st to 3rd they are just like a fighter when it comes to using scrolls. It doesn't get more clear than that in the text of the Paladin class as I will post again.
"Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list presented in Spell Lists."
It does not make sense for a paladin or ranger to 'not have a spell list before 4th level'. Otherwise they would not be able to cast from a wand before 4th level, which the rules state they can do. Therefore, they have a spell list from 1st level on. They merely cannot prepare from that list because they have no spell slots to use. Not being able to prepare does not mean they do not have a spell list.
I think its safe to say a paladin does not even get a caster level until level 4, but if one were to say they just have a negative caster level they would at the minimum suffer a possibility of a spell mishap. I dont think they even have a caster level until 4th level though.Precisely my point. It says that if they do not have a high enough caster level, they have to roll a caster level check to avoid a mishap. It does not say 'they cannot cast the spell.'
But don't you need a caster level to make a caster level check?
But don't you need a caster level to make a caster level check?
Yeah, this is the one thing that makes me disagree with TriOmegaZero here. I'm a computer programmer, so I'm rather painfully aware of the difference between something which is undefined and something which is equal to zero. Paladins of level 1-3 have an undefined caster level, not a caster level of zero. What does X+1 equal when you have no idea of the value of X? It's undefined. It cannot produce a usable result. The program crashes, if you're lucky.
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But don't you need a caster level to make a caster level check?
It can be argued either way. The rules never state 'yes, you need a caster level to make a caster level check'. Hence why I say a 1st level paladin/ranger could make one with a bonus of 0.
Well yeah, Zurai, but D&D isn't a computer program.
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Right? XD
Thinking about it a bit more, it is not undefined. They have 'no caster level'. If you have 'no oranges' then you have zero oranges.
And yes, I'm being quite silly with this.
But don't you need a caster level to make a caster level check?It can be argued either way. The rules never state 'yes, you need a caster level to make a caster level check'. Hence why I say a 1st level paladin/ranger could make one with a bonus of 0.
Well yeah, Zurai, but D&D isn't a computer program.
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Right? XDThinking about it a bit more, it is not undefined. They have 'no caster level'. If you have 'no oranges' then you have zero oranges.
And yes, I'm being quite silly with this.
I look at the caster level as -, the same as an undead monster's constitution score 0.
edit: I figured you were, but I its good to play devil's advocate sometimes. If you don't someone else will, but they won't be playing.
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It's how I'm going to run if it ever comes up, but I can totally understand the other way of interpreting it. I mostly just argued so anyone reading the thread later can get all the information on both views.
I honestly don't see it being that big of a deal, especially with how rare a situation it is.